Free Will vs. Predestination: Why is this even needed to be debated?

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Jun 30, 2011
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#81
That is the problem.

Do we interpret scripture as the people the letter was origionally written to interpret it?

or do we interpret it wiht as you say a worldview in mind?

Every one of pauls letters were written to different churches in the region who had induvidual problems in their churches. He exposed the problems, The false teachings. and gave answers to what God wanted him to answer (inspired word)

So should we not see what the problems facing the roman church are, which caused these three chapters to be written?

I truly belief failure to do so will lead to a world view. And even though you MAY get it right, you risk getting it wrong.



You said yourself you went to a 'legalistic church' and you started asking questions, and seeking answers - could it be that possibly when looking for free will theology - you started with a position, and then used that question to interpret what supports free-will theology? I know that I started very man centered in theology, and as my walk progresses - i see less of me and my felt needs, and my thinking of how things should be, and more of God is just, God will do as He pleases, I don't understand all things - i am just here to obey and bring Him glory
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#82
I do read what Paul said and doctrines of grace are consistent, with the Bible, what Paul rights about, and God's character - free will theology focuses on man. Paul had a Biblical Worldview, there is no question of that.
Free will does not focus on man. That is a world view. Free will focuses on God. He did all the work. No man can take any credit. saying that is just a smoke screen.

Granted. Some twist it to make it a focus on self. But the ones who do this teach a works based Gospel apart from Grace. But just because it CAN lead to something does not mean it does.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#83
You said yourself you went to a 'legalistic church' and you started asking questions, and seeking answers - could it be that possibly when looking for free will theology -

I said a legalistic church. They taught calvanism. They taught those who commited certain sins could not be saved, Thus God could not have chosen them.
Or those who claimed to be saved, If they did certain things, Well they could never have been saved, If they were, They would not do such things. No grace. No free will.

you started with a position, and then used that question to interpret what supports free-will theology?
Nope. What I did was start from scratch. Put myself in the place of the roman believers who first red this. And came up with the context of what Paul was talking about. When I did this, The non free will interpretation fell flat on its face. I could not see it.

I know that I started very man centered in theology, and as my walk progresses - i see less of me and my felt needs, and my thinking of how things should be, and more of God is just, God will do as He pleases, I don't understand all things - i am just here to obey and bring Him glory
We are the same here. God does do as he pleases. He also makes sure people are in place who will do what he needs to be done, Whether it be his children (like Abraham) or people Not his CHildren. Like pharoah. I mean if you think about it. If God could make anyone do whatever he pleases, like non free willers say. Then God did not have to raise up a particular person to do what he willed. He could make anyone do it.

He rose pharoah and chose to put that particular person in place. Because he KNEW he would do EXACTLY what he did.

He did not have to force anything, But his will got fulfilled anyway.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#84
Man is not sovereign, God is, if He wasn't, no one would be saved

I actually believe the Holy Spirit does His work in peoples hearts - A sermon preached, one soul pricked, one soul not - not because he choose not to care, but the Holy Spirit isn't working in the one who doesn't care. It is the Holy Spirit that brings conviction of sin, which transforms a heart so that he can believe. Some people believe their saved because they decided to go to church, have worldly sorrow towards sin that does nothing, they eventually defect because they are not regenerated in the first place. The tares look a lot like wheat on the exterior - and in most churches all you see is the exterior of people.

God is The Author, and The Finisher of our faith - we are the ones who are finite, and are living it out by faith in the end product - as well as living in the keeping Grace of God

If you believe that you are sovereign you will walk away ultimately showing that you never had salvation
 
Oct 6, 2013
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#85
So what if I pick neither?

What if I said 'both are wrong'?
 
Oct 14, 2013
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#87
Romans 9

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.


10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;


11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
Oct 14, 2013
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#88
Romans 9
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.


10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;


11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#89
1 Timothy 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality

elect angels - hmm so some angels are fit for destruction and some will be in God's presence - what amount of 'angel' will do they have