GENESIS (A discussion between thepsalmist and oldhermit)

[oldhermit]

1. God reveals something of his own nature.
a. God is represented as a collective – Elohim is a plural noun that presents God to us as unity.
b. God is external to the material dimension. He precedes and stands outside of matter.
c. Divine attributes are evident.

* Intellect – creation begins as an idea in the mind of God.
* Power – to bring matter into existence from nothing.
* Wisdom – to organize matter.

when did god, revel to the writer of genesis ,anything about himself.

Okay, now I see what you are getting at. What you are wanting to know is how I come to these conclusions. Is that correct?

 

[royalscot]

no, i am saying, because of the mixture of scripture,(ie 66 books) one book (genesis)can not convey or give an identity of god or human logic to an understanding of who or what god is, from this one book of the bible. because being told to write someone else s account, or to tell a story, from this point of history or of there understanding, would be impossible for the writer of any books of the bible, etc
for example
to given an account to, or give an eye witness account to what the universe looks like,
was not a talking point at anytime in the history of the bible. (only modern day, 2016 can see through sciences pictures of the universe ,etc)

it tells the reader, without going in to who or the meaning to who or what god did or is. only that there is a god. or simply there is a god. and what he made.

so any reader, believer or unbeliever is told there is a god. (double edge sword)

20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.Romans 1


so if we can see , and explain the movements of planets etc etc (universe) now all are without excuse. etc

 

[oldhermit]

no, i am saying, because of the mixture of scripture,(ie 66 books) one book (genesis)can not convey or give an identity of god or human logic to an understanding of who or what god is, from this one book of the bible. because being told to write someone else s account, or to tell a story, from this point of history or of there understanding, would be impossible for the writer of any books of the bible, etc

This account is NOT man's account, no matter when it was written or by whom. This account is the Holy Spirit's account of Creation. He is the eye witness and the words selected are those of the Holy Spirit and were chosen for a reason.

 

[Zmouth]

Interesting format, initially, too bad thepsalmist recused themself from the discussion.

However, if I may I would like to ask if you could clarify these 'heavens' you referenced in your initial post.

3. The heavens and the earth.

a. Heaven – that which expand beyond the surface of the earth.
b. Earth – the sole occupant of the universe at this point.

Under No. 3 you cite 'heavens', yet in item (a.) you appear to reference a singular body of space.

As far as the known and observable universe there is only one expanse, or rather area of celestial space in which the terrestrial bodies abode. So would you mind clarifying how one 'heaven' is more than one at that point of reference?

My rebuttal would be Psalm 146:6, to which I aver to Proverbs 30:6.

And one other question in regards to your following statement:

- Matter cannot be destroyed, it merely changes form; example: Water can be changed from solid to liquid to gas depending on the conditions of temperature. The scientific community theorizes from this that matter is therefore eternal.

Water is H2O, take an atom of hydrogen away and puff, no more water, right?

Now split that hydrogen atom and boom, no more particle of matter, right?

What verse one teaches us is that the absence of human observation does not invalidate the creation of matter.

2 Cor 3:6

 

[oldhermit]

These are very good questions.

Interesting format, initially, too bad thepsalmist recused themself from the discussion.

However, if I may I would like to ask if you could clarify these 'heavens' you referenced in your initial post.

Under No. 3 you cite 'heavens', yet in item (a.) you appear to reference a singular body of space.

As far as the known and observable universe there is only one expanse, or rather area of celestial space in which the terrestrial bodies abode. So would you mind clarifying how one 'heaven' is more than one at that point of reference?

My rebuttal would be Psalm 146:6, to which I aver to Proverbs 30:6.

The heavens as they are represented in the text are part of the structure of the earth. They consist of the waters that had covered the earth. "God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven." I can only think of this in terms of God forming earth's atmosphere which would become necessary for sustaining life as well a protecting the earth from radiation from the sun later on.

And one other question in regards to your following statement:

Water is H2O, take an atom of hydrogen away and puff, no more water, right?

Now split that hydrogen atom and boom, no more particle of matter, right?

2 Cor 3:6

We can dismantle any given substance and change it into something at the molecular level. It then ceases to be the original compound but, all the molecules of mater still exist, only in a different form. We can even destroy an atom by atomic explosion or implosion yet the material of the atom still continues to exist but only in fragmented form. This is a simple mater of physics. But these things are subject to the power of an unseen God who can not only create them from nothing but who can also wipe them from existence altogether. The point I was making from the text was that contrary to the opinions of the scientific community, mater is NOT eternal. It can be created and it can be destroyed, but only by the hand of the one who governs the universe.

 

[abcdef]

Brother oldhermit,

1. When you think about things before creation, here is something to think about,

+ > -

2. When all energy is gone, will mass be gone?

3.Where did all the "energy" in the universe come from?

Enjoy,

Brother John

 

[royalscot]

This account is NOT man's account, no matter when it was written or by whom. This account is the Holy Spirit's account of Creation. He is the eye witness and the words selected are those of the Holy Spirit and were chosen for a reason.

your speculating, adding to what is being said, and the understanding it, was said in. (in genesis) so again what i said , before , stands.

Originally Posted by royalscot

no, i am saying, because of the mixture of scripture,(ie 66 books) one book (genesis)can not convey or give an identity of god or human logic to an understanding of who or what god is, from this one book of the bible. because being told to write someone else s account, or to tell a story, from this point of history or of there understanding, would be impossible for the writer of any books of the bible, etc


again ,holy spirit is a word used in a new covenant. in order to get context, you must have understanding to what is being said. to who. and why.

1. If we consider the work preformed by the Holy Spirit throughout the rest of scripture perhaps we can understand something of his participation in creation. The Holy Spirit is always seen functioning in three ways. (your quote)



Prophecy and Parables
34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."Matthew 13

 

[royalscot]

if he only spoke to the crowd in parables, how did you hear, what jesus said to his apostles etc

(and that would have been read in the bible after around 1500 ad. )

 

[oldhermit]

your speculating, adding to what is being said, and the understanding it, was said in. (in genesis) so again what i said , before , stands.

Originally Posted by royalscot

no, i am saying, because of the mixture of scripture,(ie 66 books) one book (genesis)can not convey or give an identity of god or human logic to an understanding of who or what god is, from this one book of the bible. because being told to write someone else s account, or to tell a story, from this point of history or of there understanding, would be impossible for the writer of any books of the bible, etc


again ,holy spirit is a word used in a new covenant. in order to get context, you must have understanding to what is being said. to who. and why.

1. If we consider the work preformed by the Holy Spirit throughout the rest of scripture perhaps we can understand something of his participation in creation. The Holy Spirit is always seen functioning in three ways. (your quote)



Prophecy and Parables
34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."Matthew 13

Apparently, I am still not getting the point you are trying to make in all of this. Yes, I made the statement that, "If we consider the work preformed by the Holy Spirit throughout the rest of scripture perhaps we can understand something of his participation in creation. The Holy Spirit is always seen functioning in three ways." This is a true statement but it in no way implies that we cannot see this point revealed in Gen 1 without searching the rest of the scripture. The rest of the scripture merely conform the point I made about the function of the Holy Spirit. If this is not a sufficient explanation for you then I am afraid I am going to have to go on.

 

[oldhermit]

Brother oldhermit,

1. When you think about things before creation, here is something to think about,

+ > -

2. When all energy is gone, will mass be gone?

3.Where did all the "energy" in the universe come from?

Enjoy,

Brother John

I am not a scientist so I probably could not give a sufficient scientific answer but as to the second question, one could only speculate.

As the question three, Genesis tells us where everything in the created world came from. "And God said, 'Let there be...."

 

[thepsalmist]

Brother oldhermit,

1. When you think about things before creation, here is something to think about,

+ > -

2. When all energy is gone, will mass be gone?

3.Where did all the "energy" in the universe come from?

Enjoy,

Brother John

I KNOW next to nothing about science ... but thought I would offer this in case it helps. I don't know what it means really.

A few years ago God told me something about there being a change from A to B.

A:

+ - + - + -
__________

- + - + - +

B.

+++++++
__________
_ _ _ _ _ _

 

[oldhermit]

I KNOW next to nothing about science ... but thought I would offer this in case it helps. I don't know what it means really.

A few years ago God told me something about there being a change from A to B.

A:

+ - + - + -
__________

- + - + - +

B.

+++++++
__________
_ _ _ _ _ _

????????????????????????

 

[abcdef]

Brother oldhermit,

1. + > -
Love, is greater than, no love.
But don't think of the negative as inert, it has a power of it's own.
The vacuum is always pulling.

2. When all energy is gone, will mass be gone?
Answer, It doesn't matter, get it ? "matter", it doesn't "matter", ha ha.

3.Where did all the "energy" in the universe come from?
A better question would be where is it going?

Brother John

 

[abcdef]

Brother oldhermit,

I thought you could use a little humor.

+ > -

Love, is greater than, no love.

God is love,...... Satan is no love.
God is reason....Satan is no reason
God is order......Satan is chaos
God is mercy.....Satan is no mercy
God is joy.........Satan is no joy
God is fellowship.....Satan is alone

God is light....Satan is no light (light absorbing, not inert)

You are with God.....or you are separated from Him (spiritually dead)

You are with God....or you are in the "darkness of the deep", the "face of the deep". (outer space, the void).

When the "Spirit" (Jn 4) moves on the "face of the waters" the "glory of God" mixes with the void (darkness of the deep).

In this place, where God's glory and the darkness of the void mix and swirl, is where creation takes place.

In our world, we have both, love and no love, light and darkness, God's Word and lies.

Brother John

 

[Zmouth]

.Where did all the "energy" in the universe come from?

It all depends upon its atomic number...

A better question would be where is it going?

It all depends upon its atomic number...

A more perfect question is, does the atomic number of energy matter?

 

[royalscot]

Apparently, I am still not getting the point you are trying to make in all of this. Yes, I made the statement that, "If we consider the work preformed by the Holy Spirit throughout the rest of scripture perhaps we can understand something of his participation in creation. The Holy Spirit is always seen functioning in three ways." This is a true statement but it in no way implies that we cannot see this point revealed in Gen 1 without searching the rest of the scripture. The rest of the scripture merely conform the point I made about the function of the Holy Spirit. If this is not a sufficient explanation for you then I am afraid I am going to have to go on.

when your ready you answer that other post i have made, to re answer by what i have already told you.

go on if you want, you can t mix two covenants, one is dead. so there is a new way, or walk to walk. etc and that s is a fact.

now you make the point , i have been making. (after how many post that i made,i have noticed )

second point, word construction, or grammar, to make a phrase or sentence

example one= behold to the heavens, the small lights, sparkled in the darkness.
example two= i looked to the sky, and the stars shone in the darkness.

forget the words used, do they give the meaning or gist..... it was night time, the stars, shine, use you eye and look. etc.

so mixing changes of understanding, and changes to what is understood to that day, era, or year in history.(planets and there rotation paths, would be meaningless to people who wrote in the bible.) is like trying to mix a new and an old covenant. if you don t understand the change made, then your mind will continue in the path of its understanding.

but going back to another, quote of mine, the sun, the moon and the earth, gave the whole of mankind,( by humans )they watching or looking at the sun and moon, has gave birth to the understanding to time, days, months, years. and history can be followed etc regardless, if the believed or not. then tried to pass off, that idea as there own.

sorry ,the holy spirit, again is the sign, given as the start of a new covenant.

if one covenant is old, then there is a new one.means it is not an extension(but gives a history account, to what the old covenant was etc)

Acts 15: The Jerusalem Council
1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved

.5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."


10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,

marks change, now a gentile can be saved in a new covenant, (in the old how many gentiles were saved, or had to convert to judaism.)

and now any jewish person can be saved with the new covenant.

 

[oldhermit]

when your ready you answer that other post i have made, to re answer by what i have already told you.
go on if you want, you can t mix two covenants, one is dead. so there is a new way, or walk to walk. etc and that s is a fact.

Αυτό είναι το τέλος της συνομιλίας ἡμῶν.

 

[royalscot]

;27 TEKEL, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting;2Daniel 5: The Handwriting on the Wall
(by a new covenant. )

 

[royalscot]

This is the end of our conversation.

Αυτό είναι το τέλος της συνομιλίας ἡμῶν.


its an open forum , who said i was only talking to you.

test the scripture. etc etc etc etc, would mean having to work at re tracing history. google translates laug etc for many countries so that they can read word that are wrote. etc

 

[royalscot]

to for........................ giveness. that must be a word and a meaning , wisdom , cant understand ,or comprehend. (human wisdom, i was thinking normin to give us a laugh . ) etc