for the record , no disrespect , the rhema word, told me to add to this forum. i am still trying, to work out why. etc (walking in faith , etc ) find that needle you eejit lol they are blind but think they see. for the record ,speak to the smallest in the room, and everyone in that room will understand.( must be something i missed etc )
GENESIS (A discussion between thepsalmist and oldhermit)
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Not sure if your are going to respond in this thread anymore or not but in case you do.
Could it not be said that depends upon the text?
What I find interesting is how these newer translations only change words in certain key scriptures while remaining unchanged in others. And Genesis 1:1 is a perfect example how in the KJV uses the term 'heaven' while the others use the term 'heavens'.
While the Hebrew word shamayim which represent the dual of an unused singular shameh from meaning to be lofty, which from your perspective would represent that I am in unawares of the duality which simply put, dual means two and two is plural, heavens. Would that be the basis for which you accept the term 'heavens'?
So according to the scriptures were these waters frozen, liquid or vapor? If you believe that the were waters there as written then it had to be in one of the three states of matter, solid, liquid or vapor. It is easy to see that it is written there were waters in the light of the scripture yet in Genesis 1:2 we are walking in the dark so to speak, so I will check back in twelve hours and see if you have a chance to reply.
For any others that might stumble across this post, I will conclude that the point referenced in Genesis 1:2 represented that the surface of the spherical earth which abode in the darkness of heaven was completely covered under a deluge of frozen water.
You are correct about the water, while the substance of water formed by the bond between the three would cease to exist, the atoms which formed the substance of water, you would still have the three atoms. However, there is no substance of an atom without the bond of a proton and neutron. So what you when you put asunder the bond of proton and neutron you do not have fragments of mass but rather an expanse of empty space. Or at least that is MHO.
Could it not be said that depends upon the text?
What I find interesting is how these newer translations only change words in certain key scriptures while remaining unchanged in others. And Genesis 1:1 is a perfect example how in the KJV uses the term 'heaven' while the others use the term 'heavens'.
While the Hebrew word shamayim which represent the dual of an unused singular shameh from meaning to be lofty, which from your perspective would represent that I am in unawares of the duality which simply put, dual means two and two is plural, heavens. Would that be the basis for which you accept the term 'heavens'?
So according to the scriptures were these waters frozen, liquid or vapor? If you believe that the were waters there as written then it had to be in one of the three states of matter, solid, liquid or vapor. It is easy to see that it is written there were waters in the light of the scripture yet in Genesis 1:2 we are walking in the dark so to speak, so I will check back in twelve hours and see if you have a chance to reply.
For any others that might stumble across this post, I will conclude that the point referenced in Genesis 1:2 represented that the surface of the spherical earth which abode in the darkness of heaven was completely covered under a deluge of frozen water.
You are correct about the water, while the substance of water formed by the bond between the three would cease to exist, the atoms which formed the substance of water, you would still have the three atoms. However, there is no substance of an atom without the bond of a proton and neutron. So what you when you put asunder the bond of proton and neutron you do not have fragments of mass but rather an expanse of empty space. Or at least that is MHO.
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Brother oldhermit,
What can we tell about the "time" before creation?
Isn't there just God and the "deep", the void?
The "face of the deep" is what you would see from God's throne.
It wouldn't be literal "water", because water wasn't created yet.
I consider the deep as "outer space," before anything "material" was created, empty of any substance.
Your thoughts?
Brother John
What can we tell about the "time" before creation?
Isn't there just God and the "deep", the void?
The "face of the deep" is what you would see from God's throne.
It wouldn't be literal "water", because water wasn't created yet.
I consider the deep as "outer space," before anything "material" was created, empty of any substance.
Your thoughts?
Brother John
Time is here represented in the context of 'days' and is provided only in the context of the creation of the world. The text tells us that the evening and the morning of creation marked the 'first day.' This by definition represents the first measurement of time which will later be expanded to the "times and the seasons." All of this is confined by the text to "In the beginning." It is something that until this point did not exist. However things may be measured in heaven, we are not told, but the text is not discussing those things.
The water was there and just as literal as the earth. Look at the text. The water is represented as part of the natural world of created matter and it covered the earth. Darkness was the state of the deep. The Spirit of God moved over the face or surface of the deep. The water was then redistributed in the context of the natural world - water below the earth and waters above the earth.
The water was there and just as literal as the earth. Look at the text. The water is represented as part of the natural world of created matter and it covered the earth. Darkness was the state of the deep. The Spirit of God moved over the face or surface of the deep. The water was then redistributed in the context of the natural world - water below the earth and waters above the earth.
Brother oldhermit,
I'm still studying your post #45.
1. V 2, Are you saying that the "waters", are the first thing created?
2. V 2, Are the "deep waters" eternal like God? They always have been there?
3. This question, is always on my mind when I think about these things is,
What can this tell us about eternity at the end of the Bible?
I know that's a little "off thread" but I was just letting you know a little about how I was looking at it, reflecting.
I'm still studying your post #45.
1. V 2, Are you saying that the "waters", are the first thing created?
2. V 2, Are the "deep waters" eternal like God? They always have been there?
3. This question, is always on my mind when I think about these things is,
What can this tell us about eternity at the end of the Bible?
I know that's a little "off thread" but I was just letting you know a little about how I was looking at it, reflecting.
I am saying that when the material world is presented to us in verses one and two, bot the earth and the water exist together. These waters are not eternal. They are part of the world of mater. We cannot assume that the water is metaphoric or symbolic unless the text itself demands it. Everything he is relating to are things that are connected to the creation and function of the natural world.
one word, nimrod. etc yet after your account , why did you not add this, , again gives birth to all nations, to believe. etc
cahoot.
cahoots
kəˈhuːts/
noun[COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#878787 !important]plural noun: cahoots[/COLOR]
cahoot.
cahoots
kəˈhuːts/
noun[COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#878787 !important]plural noun: cahoots[/COLOR]
- colluding or conspiring together secretly.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"the area is dominated by guerrillas in cahoots with drug traffickers"[/COLOR]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]in league, colluding, in collusion, conspiring, conniving, collaborating,hand in glove, allied, in alliance"politicians accused of being in cahoots with the Mafia"
can you prove you only have one internet account.
makes a statement but can answer it. the changes the subject, to give voice to his explination. (nimrod,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
give voice to many different lingo s, he can stay with the greek, or hebrew, latin, etc) the gist stays the same. etc
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16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. etc
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. etc
Brother oldhermit,
There was a time when the earth was void.
So before there was an earth, at least for a time there was only the "deep". v 2
I believe that the deep is eternal just like God is. You are either with Him eternally or you will be in the darkness of the deep, among other places.
I think that this concept is continued through out the rest of the Bible. 2 Pet 2:17, Jude 13.
I would say that the deep is eternal. In Rev 20:11, heaven and earth "fly away" from "Him", where do they go? Into "the deep".
2. The literal meaning would be, go outside and look up at the night sky. That is the "deep".
3. I'm saying the word waters, in v 2 and v 6, shouldn't necessarily be connected together.
The idea being that the "waters" in v 6, are one of the 4 elements of air, water, earth, and fire.
The creation of the "element" water v 6, is showing that when the element was created it was divided into 2 "atmospheres", (firmaments), water (oceans) and air (mist, The earth was watered by a "mist",heavy fog Gen 2:6), at this time. So the "separation" at that time was not as distinct (separated after the flood), as we think of it now.
These 2 two "elements" are constantly coming together and separating at the same time.
3. What is your opinion about the origin of the text. I'm a Moses fan, so I vote for him. But, What was his "perception" of the text? Partly Egyptian in origin? Handed down?
Your thoughts my Brother?
There was a time when the earth was void.
So before there was an earth, at least for a time there was only the "deep". v 2
I believe that the deep is eternal just like God is. You are either with Him eternally or you will be in the darkness of the deep, among other places.
I think that this concept is continued through out the rest of the Bible. 2 Pet 2:17, Jude 13.
I would say that the deep is eternal. In Rev 20:11, heaven and earth "fly away" from "Him", where do they go? Into "the deep".
2. The literal meaning would be, go outside and look up at the night sky. That is the "deep".
3. I'm saying the word waters, in v 2 and v 6, shouldn't necessarily be connected together.
The idea being that the "waters" in v 6, are one of the 4 elements of air, water, earth, and fire.
The creation of the "element" water v 6, is showing that when the element was created it was divided into 2 "atmospheres", (firmaments), water (oceans) and air (mist, The earth was watered by a "mist",heavy fog Gen 2:6), at this time. So the "separation" at that time was not as distinct (separated after the flood), as we think of it now.
These 2 two "elements" are constantly coming together and separating at the same time.
3. What is your opinion about the origin of the text. I'm a Moses fan, so I vote for him. But, What was his "perception" of the text? Partly Egyptian in origin? Handed down?
Your thoughts my Brother?
How can there be a deep when there is a void. The word void means "nothing", "empty." This is like trying to argue the validity of the four points of John Barrow. The only way one can argue his points is to remove God completely from the equation.
Moses is a possibility and even a probability. If not him, then one of those whom he chose. Either way, Genesis is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of the one who put pen to paper as it were.
Moses is a possibility and even a probability. If not him, then one of those whom he chose. Either way, Genesis is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of the one who put pen to paper as it were.
The term void, would IMHO represent that the earth without any life or living organism present.
The term without form, would IMHO represent lacking any topography, or distinctive surface features which being completely covered under water would pretty much give the visual impression of being a round sphere covered in ice.
There is celestial body called Enceladus is a excellent working model for what the earth would have appeared in Genesis 1:2
[h=1][/h]Here is a NASA link on Enceladus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nts-bkhoMt4
The term without form, would IMHO represent lacking any topography, or distinctive surface features which being completely covered under water would pretty much give the visual impression of being a round sphere covered in ice.
There is celestial body called Enceladus is a excellent working model for what the earth would have appeared in Genesis 1:2
[h=1][/h]Here is a NASA link on Enceladus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nts-bkhoMt4
Brother oldhermit, looking at Post #52,
The "deep" Is the "outer space" that goes on forever.
Imagine our night sky with nothing in it. no milky way, no moon, nothing.
This would be the "deep". Void of everything. Endless space of nothing, eternity in all directions. This is our reality.
The word "water" only refers to the surface (face) of this empty void, as seen from God's throne.
You are thinking of the water in v 2 as a substance, it is void of all substance, it is deep space.
There is only,
where God is,
and
where God is not.
Where love is,
and
where there is no love.
I think, that this theme carries through out the whole Bible.
The "deep" Is the "outer space" that goes on forever.
Imagine our night sky with nothing in it. no milky way, no moon, nothing.
This would be the "deep". Void of everything. Endless space of nothing, eternity in all directions. This is our reality.
The word "water" only refers to the surface (face) of this empty void, as seen from God's throne.
You are thinking of the water in v 2 as a substance, it is void of all substance, it is deep space.
There is only,
where God is,
and
where God is not.
Where love is,
and
where there is no love.
I think, that this theme carries through out the whole Bible.
Well, you had previously stated that whether the waters was frozen or not would merely be speculation, I merely was demonstrating that it really isn't speculation. While one can speculate whether I simply came to this by my own reasoning and understanding or whether it was obtained as described in John 14:26, one really can't speculate what happens to water in space because principles hold true today as they would have from the beginning, as they will in perpetuity, without exception when the same facts are subjected to the same environment.
That is why there are twelve hours in a Day. The visible light of the Sun will always illuminate half of the earth's surface at all time except during those times when there is an eclipse, or another celestial body passes between the sun and the earth.
That is why there are twelve hours in a Day. The visible light of the Sun will always illuminate half of the earth's surface at all time except during those times when there is an eclipse, or another celestial body passes between the sun and the earth.