GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE!

[valiant]

What does "time" have to do with "reason'?

You will learn when you are older

"Time" cannot magically transform the irrational, illogical and unreasonable into the rational, logical and reasonable.

LOL it is doing it all the time. As a man grows so his thoughts mature.

It is a fact that without legitimate choice both virtue and vice are meaningless concepts.

No one denies legitimate choice. What they deny is man's present ability to make it.

When the Westminster Confession teaches both... Inherited Guilt ...and... Inherited Inability

The one results in the other. If God accepts them who are you to argue?

it is absurd to marry those teachings to both reason and responsibility. An appeal to "time" obviously doesn't change that. It is irreconcilable, which is why people like you cannot directly address the flaw, only attempt to misdirect people away from the obvious, just like you have done with your appeal to "time."

when you are older you will understand

 

[Depleted]

I wonder if God thinks that children could teach a few people here things. To me many adults stray down the path of many dividing thoughts until they live on their own island of belief, and that belief which is stored in the carnal mind, becomes more important than the simplicity of being like a child, and the simplicity of God. God is Love.

And where there is no talk of love, or spirit of love in speech, I think there is a rejection of God, even if one claims that they talk in the name of God. For God knows who you speak for, you speak for yourself, and from yourself. Not through the mind of Christ, not through the mind of God. For God is Love, therefore Jesus is Love, and Love is central to everything you say or do.

Make it so or make it not, that is the fine line of free will.

...you say while espousing your personal beliefs.

 

[Marano]

Yeah I do believe God is completely sovereign over all our actions and human beings are still responsible for their actions.

I keep this rule to myself, all good that ever happens in our lives comes from God (you can see that in James), also all sin comes from ourselves (sin nature, you can also see that in James, God tempts no one).

 

[valiant]

A baby is born IGNORANT and subject to NATURAL CARNAL PASSION.

That is not evil. Just as a lion eating a zebra is not evil either.

But it is a sinful nature and for man results in evil.

Good and evil pertain to MORALITY. MORALITY pertains to CHOICE.

A virtuous act cannot be virtuous in the absence of the CHOICE to not be virtuous.

Likewise, a wicked act cannot be wicked in the absence of the CHOICE to be good.

Man has the choice and without God's grace always chooses evil.

To claim that a baby is "born evil" is ridiculous and unreasonable. A baby knows not a thing about morality. Evil can only manifest when the child has the capacity to REASON where they then can REFUSE EVIL and thus CHOOSE GOOD.

Well it depends what you mean by evil. Let us say that it is born sinful, and liable to sin, and guilty because its ancestors were guilty. Collective responsibility..

The Bible teaches that "corruption is in the world through lust."

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

One of many causes.

A Christian has ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Actually he hasn't. He has merely been helped on the way,

If we read what James wrote about lust he says...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Examine the order...

Temptation wrought through Lust -------------------> Enticement ------------------> Lust gives birth to sin -------------> Death.

That is EXACTLY what happened with Eve...

and that was the start of it all

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Right.

A Christian has CRUCIFIED their lusts...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Crucified but not yet dead.

The lusts are not evil, it is only in submitting to them in disobedience to righteousness that sin is wrought. Hence...

Many lusts are themselves evil.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So how many are totally obedient.? Ahh our sinful nature.

Sin unto death = disobedience to righteousness
Obedience unto righteousness = disobedience to sin.

Very clever.

Common sense.

Sooo?

A baby can not do that because they have no concept at all as it pertains to unrighteousness nor righteousness. Hence they need instruction.

Has it no conscience?

How can a baby sin with no concept of righteousness? Answer that. How can a baby be guilty before God?

By collective responsibility.

God would be a tyrant to declare an infant as guilty and under condemnation. It is absurd.

Be careful, He has done so,

Stop regurgitating theology and be sensible. God is reasonable.

But do you understand God's reason? That is the question.

 

[Ariel82]

True or false....are babies born selfish?

 

[Ariel82]

There is a difference between sinless and blameless.

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 5

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
****

18Therefore, as one trespassf led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessg leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Issachar92]

Your entire framework is the antithesis of reason.

You cannot have "sovereignty," as Calvin viewed it, and at the same time have genuine responsibility.

Why clutch at straws in an attempt to defend foolishness? Isn't the truth more valuable than an emotional investment?

If God chooses salvation for some and denies it to others all within the framework of "birth inability" as John Calvin taught then obviously no-one is truly responsible for their conduct.



The god you believe in as akin to a baker who refuses to add yeast to a dough and then is angry at the bread for not rising. It is so absurd you would almost have to attend seminary in order to believe it.

Vice and virtue cannot exist unless there exists the ability to be either chaste or unchaste.

Brilliant! Absolutely true. I loved the retarded baker reference, thats literally calvinism in a nutshell.
It all goes back to the original sin and avoiding accountability issue.

 

[Issachar92]

You will learn when you are older



LOL it is doing it all the time. As a man grows so his thoughts mature.



No one denies legitimate choice. What they deny is man's present ability to make it.



The one results in the other. If God accepts them who are you to argue?



when you are older you will understand

I like the way you are talking down to a 43 year old man as if he doesnt know anything?
You've done this numerous times in other threads, look we get it, you're old, didnt do you any good in the humble department.
You're probably one of those people who complain about people not respecting their elders today? Well you are displaying why that is right here.

 

[Ariel82]

God is King.

Humanity and the world His subject.

We have free will to obey or reject God's laws and authorities.

We have all rejected God or sin at least once in our lives, this deserve hell.

God in His mercy and grace sent Jesus to save sinners of we believe His gospel message.

Everyone has the choice to accept or reject.

Most will reject because they prefer sin but God will give additional grace to save a select few to be saved for His will and purpose to be accomplished on Earth.

God's choice is NOT dependent oN innate goodness, but He makes His children good and godly and able to do His will and work in this world.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

True or false....are babies born selfish?

even in the womb God knows,their hearts

i used to think there was an age of accountability

but even so
that doesnt mean babies are without sin

my beliefs on this became LESS strong standing the more i looked into it

but between what God writes in our hearts and how we respond and seek to do good over bad
matters to everyone


the same way people without the Word of God will be judged

babies will probably be judged

if someone doesnt have access to truth in Bible format

they are either given visions or dreams or their consious

i think the less time they have on their side
the easier it is for them logically speaking...

to us it seems less fair but God is good
and im sure how ever he takes care of this will be acceptable to anyone with good heart


how does that saying go?

the truth sounds like hate to those who hate the truth

 

[NoNameMcgee]

(scripture put together in a legit way can make me have a stronger standpoint on this and i can do a 180 in either direction)

 

[Ariel82]

(scripture put together in a legit way can make me have a stronger standpoint on this and i can do a 180 in either direction)

Then you should probably should study and pray. With most theology debates,both sides have lots of scriptures...the challenge will be to determine which side uses scripture as God intended and which only shows part of the picture to make their case while ignoring other scriptures that would refute their position?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Then you should probably should study and pray. With most theology debates,both sides have lots of scriptures...the challenge will be to determine which side uses scripture as God intended and which only shows part of the picture to make their case while ignoring other scriptures that would refute their position?

how you view my current understanding of it?

babies get judged according to their knowledge and deeds
unless they are saved by grace
just like everyone else

 

[psalm6819]

Lol oxymoron

 

[psalm6819]

Oh wait I should have known......

 

[Depleted]

even in the womb God knows,their hearts

i used to think there was an age of accountability

but even so
that doesnt mean babies are without sin

my beliefs on this became LESS strong standing the more i looked into it

but between what God writes in our hearts and how we respond and seek to do good over bad
matters to everyone


the same way people without the Word of God will be judged

babies will probably be judged

if someone doesnt have access to truth in Bible format

they are either given visions or dreams or their consious

i think the less time they have on their side
the easier it is for them logically speaking...

to us it seems less fair but God is good
and im sure how ever he takes care of this will be acceptable to anyone with good heart


how does that saying go?

the truth sounds like hate to those who hate the truth

Here is God's judgement on all of mankind, from the youngest and to the oldest.

Gen. 6:5 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.[/FONT]

 

[SovereignGrace]

Indeed....God is sovereign and man is response-able.

Exactly. Sadly, most respibd with a resounding "no thanks".

 

[Rockrz]

You cannot have "sovereignty," as Calvin viewed it

Calvin ain't nobody...

People speak as though he was an apostle who's writings were inspired by God... that's not true.

Let's stik with what the Father said thru Jesus... the Word!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Exactly. Sadly, most respibd with a resounding "no thanks".

respibd was supposed to be respond. Fat fingers and Nooks don't mesh well at times.