God's Covenant With the Jews Is Everlasting? His Covenant With Israel Is Everlastin

[Ariel82]

Isreal was promised land. The church was not

are you sure about that?

Hebrews 11


13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Isreal was promised they would live in peace with no fear of their enemies, That they would prosper in all they do, and not suffer persecution or tribulation if they heeded the voice of God. The church told even if they heed the voice of God, they will still suffer persecution, tribulation etc etc.

what so different between that and this?

Revelation 21
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Why people want to try to take two promises and try to make them one I will never understand. There is no symbol in "I give this land to you and your descendents after you (only through the promised son) as an eternal inheritance)

only through the promised son? which is whom? David son of Judah or JESUS?

If God will not keep his unconditional covenant with Abraham physical descendants, there is no reason to believe he will keep his unconditioned promise to us who came to him in faith.

God keeps the promises He made, not the ones people assume He made.

 

[meecha]

no it doesn't ....it says they are grafted into an olive tree......you need to study more my friend but seriously EG...what is the olive tree?

what else but Christ. it is not isreal, they were the natural branches. your interpretation still fails.

do you think Paul has some OT text in mind when he talks about the branches of an olive tree? maybe Jeremiah 11 for example. In Rom 11 Paul says some of the branches were broken off

15“What right has My beloved in My house
When she has done many vile deeds?
Can the sacrificial flesh take away from you your disaster,
[f]So that you can rejoice?”
16 The Lord called your name,
“A green olive tree, beautiful in fruit and form”;
With the noise of a great tumult
He has kindled fire on it,
And its branches are worthless.


looks like the olive tree is a name given to Israel by God?

then tell me, what is the time of the gentiles who were grafted in? is it a jewish church or a church of isreal? messianic movement? never heard of it.

The church is Jewish in origin. It's apostles are all Jewish and James writes his epistle to the 12tribes dispersed abroad. Gentiles join later and for obvious reasons now outnumber Jews but the root is Jewish. The NT is a Jewish book. Christianity is Jewish. The Church is God's people. Israel is God's people. Dispensationalism says God has two peoples !!The bible never says this ( as far as I am aware). Gentiles are not to boast against Jews as if the Church is now gentile...it is not gentile;it is jewish. that's my understanding....nothing to do with the times of the gentiles.

 

[JaumeJ]

My friend you are talking about spiritual things here. Gods physical promises to the blood children of abraham through isaac and jacob had nothing to do with spiritual things.

If one believes YHWH the Spiritual IS reality, there is no denying. Perhaps you have simply not been given to understand beyond the flesh?

 

[meecha]

are you sure about that?

Hebrews 11
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13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.





what so different between that and this?

Revelation 21
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

only through the promised son? which is whom? David son of Judah or JESUS?



God keeps the promises He made, not the ones people assume He made.

Thanks Ariel...I was about to reply to Jaume but your post says everything I was going to say.


Hebrews 1.1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

note the phrase "last days". There are no last days after the last days. As Ariel has pointed out Jaume the "land" promise is a spiritual promise. The spiritual is the reality ...the physical is the shadow.

John4
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Believers in Yeshua ha Mossiach whether Jew or Gentile do not need a plot of land in the middle east. Abrahams descendants are spiritual children for "the just shall live by faith". It is amazing to find this idea that the "spiritual" is somehow disconnected from the physical....not a Hebrew idea at all.ie that there is a physical aspect to the Bible and a spiritual one. True worshippers worshipin spirit!!! all other worship is of the flesh.

 

[edward99]

Young man, I am saved in the name of Jesus Christ. Because I love the personal relationship we have, I like to call Him by the name His parents called Him and by the name YHWH gave Him. It is simply my desire to please Him. Now there are various versions of the transliteration of His name from Hebrew to English, and Yeshua is the one I have found to be the most likely true to pronunciation. As per being Israeli, Israeli is what a person who is a citizen of Israel may be called. New Jerusalem is the capitol of the Israel of YHWH. It is obvious that you have not come to the understanding of this. Perhaps one day you will, with prayer and meditation. At least, I sincerely hope you will. If you do not understand what another does, it is very base to ridicule, but not damning. YHWH bless you and give you a tolerant heart and soul, amen.

Your brand of syncretism is damaging, Jaume.
This mixing of the carnal and the spiritual when it suits you is particularly, and ultimately most harmful to the people you claim to esteem so highly = the unsaved jewish nation:

Puffing up people who identify as jews on the basis of an ill-informed historical "racial" foundation is having disasterous consequences for unbelieving jews - they're dying in their unbelief and so in their trespasses and sins (no remission) in part because of this enabling to expect some kind of salvation/covenant outside the Blood of Christ.

And what if 90% of the jewish people today were never of ancient Israel but merely proselytes to Judaism? What kind of special protection from hell are you continually hinting they have?

You will deny any responsibility on your part, but this almost exclusively gentile Hebrew Roots Movement has been clearly debunked as founded on faulty premises. It's easily recognized as cultic, schismatic and is so evidently THE ultimate "replacement theology" out there. Just re-read your post as you take to yourself even the name Israeli! It's beyond me how anyone can not recognize the spiritual harm we are doing by not being clearly separated out,; away from both Judaism AND pagan/gentile roots; being clearly marked as the ekkelisa to which all who will be saved must come.

 

[JaumeJ]

Your brand of syncretism is damaging, Jaume.
This mixing of the carnal and the spiritual when it suits you is particularly, and ultimately most harmful to the people you claim to esteem so highly = the unsaved jewish nation:

Puffing up people who identify as jews on the basis of an ill-informed historical "racial" foundation is having disasterous consequences for unbelieving jews - they're dying in their unbelief and so in their trespasses and sins (no remission) in part because of this enabling to expect some kind of salvation/covenant outside the Blood of Christ.

And what if 90% of the jewish people today were never of ancient Israel but merely proselytes to Judaism? What kind of special protection from hell are you continually hinting they have?

You will deny any responsibility on your part, but this almost exclusively gentile Hebrew Roots Movement has been clearly debunked as founded on faulty premises. It's easily recognized as cultic, schismatic and is so evidently THE ultimate "replacement theology" out there. Just re-read your post as you take to yourself even the name Israeli! It's beyond me how anyone can not recognize the spiritual harm we are doing by not being clearly separated out,; away from both Judaism AND pagan/gentile roots; being clearly marked as the ekkelisa to which all who will be saved must come.

Let us keep it simple. My reference to Jews is a reference to the Jews of Yahweh. My reference to Israel is the same. As for your intricate pattern of what you suppose my thinking to be, it is simply not so complicated as you have imagined. If I am puffed up as you say it, I am puffed up knowing Yahweh is my God, and Yeshua is my Savior, with the Holy Spirit they are One and the same. You know a lot of words, some of which are quite grand. Please speak in terms for us of lower vocabularies, so the most can understand. Perhaps taking the example of how our Savior spoke to us all.

 

[tribesman]

...Puffing up people who identify as jews on the basis of an ill-informed historical "racial" foundation is having disasterous consequences for unbelieving jews - they're dying in their unbelief and so in their trespasses and sins (no remission) in part because of this enabling to expect some kind of salvation/covenant outside the Blood of Christ....

This is the serious and tragic side of the pro-zionist error.

PS. Not all of the heb roots movement is pro-zionist. A not so small part of it is not interested in the issue at all. Others are critical or even anti. It needs to be pointed out.

 

[meecha]

This is the serious and tragic side of the pro-zionist error.

PS. Not all of the heb roots movement is pro-zionist. A not so small part of it is not interested in the issue at all. Others are critical or even anti. It needs to be pointed out.

Tribesman that's really encouraging.Could you point me in the direction of heb roots people who are non zionist.

 

[loveme1]

Let us not forget this:

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[edward99]

Let us keep it simple. My reference to Jews is a reference to the Jews of Yahweh. My reference to Israel is the same. As for your intricate pattern of what you suppose my thinking to be, it is simply not so complicated as you have imagined. If I am puffed up as you say it, I am puffed up knowing Yahweh is my God, and Yeshua is my Savior, with the Holy Spirit they are One and the same. You know a lot of words, some of which are quite grand. Please speak in terms for us of lower vocabularies, so the most can understand. Perhaps taking the example of how our Savior spoke to us all.

Where does it say WE get to define who is who?
If you're going to stay true to Apostolic doctrine, while at the same time referencing jews and israel linking automatically those terms to salvation, hadn't you better stay with what the New Testament definitions are?

If not for the sake of unity within the Christian Church then for the sake of lost jews AND today's evangelists who both have to overcome and contend with the idea that anyone has any hope apart from the Cross of Jesus Christ....

I didn't say you were puffed up - I said we are puffing up the jewish people in their own vain imaginings that they are in some kind of Covenant with God because they are "jewish".

 

[meecha]

Let us not forget this:

absolutley LoveMe....Jesus says the people who practice modern day Judaism ( ie that which denies the father/son relationship) are not Jews.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

are you sure about that?

Hebrews 11
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13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

We all have recieved promises, But no matter what we have oin Earth. The thing we should most desire is the heavenly promise. This does not prove me wrong. They were looking toward the messiah (the spiritual promise) because they did not recieve the physical promise because their nation was in sin. Have you read the prophets? why were they so angry at the people.

You should read what you posted, they did not recieve the promise "BUT NOW" they desire an even better place/ better than what? Better than the physical land they were promised through their fathers.

what so different between that and this?

Revelation 21
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Read lev 26. This is not lev 26. this is eternity, this is not what moses and the fathers were promised here on earth.

only through the promised son? which is whom? David son of Judah or JESUS?

Again, your ahead of yourself. Maybe you need to study more?

19 But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name [n]Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his [o]descendants after him.

Which means it was not through Ishmael, or any of Abraham's other sons. Or anyone who is not a physical decxendent of abraham (us) whether they were saved or not.

God keeps the promises He made, not the ones people assume He made.

I did not assume anything. And your quite rude saying such!

7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your [f]descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your [g]descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your [h]descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

No assumption here. Eternal possession, it is theres. whether you and I like it does not matter, it is theirs. lev 26 gives them the guildelines for what they must do to live in the land, and a warning if they do not do those things, they will be taken out and foregners (gentiles) will live in the land promised to Isreal. And also what must be done to return to the land which is rightfully theirs/.

Again you should study lev 26 and all the prophets.

 

[tribesman]

Tribesman that's really encouraging.Could you point me in the direction of heb roots people who are non zionist.

I would say that this would apply to most of the sacred namers. However, they usually have doctrinal issues of more or less serious kind (and many of them would make the exclusivist claim that using the "restored names" is a salvific matter).

I studied heb roots for about ten years. I learned a lot and much of it has been a blessing (this is not to say that there are no non-problematic teachings within heb roots, there is). However I always kept distance from the cultic and political sidelines of it and would warn people for same.

Always keep this thumb rule in mind:

1Thes.5

[21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[JaumeJ]

Where does it say WE get to define who is who?
If you're going to stay true to Apostolic doctrine, while at the same time referencing jews and israel linking automatically those terms to salvation, hadn't you better stay with what the New Testament definitions are?

If not for the sake of unity within the Christian Church then for the sake of lost jews AND today's evangelists who both have to overcome and contend with the idea that anyone has any hope apart from the Cross of Jesus Christ....

I didn't say you were puffed up - I said we are puffing up the jewish people in their own vain imaginings that they are in some kind of Covenant with God because they are "jewish".

WE have the right to explain about whom we speak. It is obvious you are looking for a confrontation for your own reasons, so that will be it between us on whatever subject it may be you honestly believe you are addressing..............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

do you think Paul has some OT text in mind when he talks about the branches of an olive tree? maybe Jeremiah 11 for example. In Rom 11 Paul says some of the branches were broken off

15“What right has My beloved in My house
When she has done many vile deeds?
Can the sacrificial flesh take away from you your disaster,
[f]So that you can rejoice?”
16 The Lord called your name,
“A green olive tree, beautiful in fruit and form”;
With the noise of a great tumult
He has kindled fire on it,
And its branches are worthless.


looks like the olive tree is a name given to Israel by God?

Did you even read the passage in question?

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Again I must ask. Why are you being arrogant and think you are better than the natural branches. even though they were cut off because of unbelief? DOn;t you realise how dangerous your belief is? Paul is warning you right here.


25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;




Partional hardening of Isreal. what does this mean?
Fullness of the gentiles has come? What does this mean? Who are the gentiles?
what happens after this "fulness" has been achieved?

The church is Jewish in origin. It's apostles are all Jewish and James writes his epistle to the 12tribes dispersed abroad. Gentiles join later and for obvious reasons now outnumber Jews but the root is Jewish. The NT is a Jewish book. Christianity is Jewish. The Church is God's people. Israel is God's people. Dispensationalism says God has two peoples !!The bible never says this ( as far as I am aware). Gentiles are not to boast against Jews as if the Church is now gentile...it is not gentile;it is jewish. that's my understanding....nothing to do with the times of the gentiles.

I ask you again. Who are the gentiles in romans 11? what does it mean when their time has been fulfilled?

The jews rejected Christ, So God gave what was supposed to be theirs to the gentiles. do you not understand this fact? This is what Paul is saying in romans 11. The mystery, the church was a mystery, was it not?

 

[edward99]

I would say that this would apply to most of the sacred namers. However, they usually have doctrinal issues of more or less serious kind (and many of them would make the exclusivist claim that using the "restored names" is a salvific matter).

And it needs to be said as well that people going into this movement are led far astray before they get even get to the salvific dogma related to sacred names. It seems by then many have already chosen Law over Gospel (our natural inclination I suppose) and so the idea that the pronunciation of a word is what saves hardly seems outrageous. The great irony being that a large portion of what is taught as "restored" was either never authentic to begin with, or should be included in that which has passed away, the Old Covenant.

 

[JaumeJ]

Did you even read the passage in question?

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Again I must ask. Why are you being arrogant and think you are better than the natural branches. even though they were cut off because of unbelief? DOn;t you realise how dangerous your belief is? Paul is warning you right here.


25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;




Partional hardening of Isreal. what does this mean?
Fullness of the gentiles has come? What does this mean? Who are the gentiles?
what happens after this "fulness" has been achieved?





I ask you again. Who are the gentiles in romans 11? what does it mean when their time has been fulfilled?

The jews rejected Christ, So God gave what was supposed to be theirs to the gentiles. do you not understand this fact? This is what Paul is saying in romans 11. The mystery, the church was a mystery, was it not?

The Good Shepherd had to bring together two flocks, and the teaching is they are to be one. This going back in forth about Jews and Gentiles is getting a little tired. First of all, we claim we love both do we not? Start from there, then talk more.

 

[edward99]

WE have the right to explain about whom we speak. It is obvious you are looking for a confrontation for your own reasons, so that will be it between us on whatever subject it may be you honestly believe you are addressing..............

What's involved in "explaining" about whom we speak? It's either coming straight from the New Testament or it's being filtered through us first. We have a responsibility to be clear.

There are so many people out there who have been "evangelized" and left standing alone or who have sought the truth through independent means that they are sitting ducks for every movement that comes along - if it looks "Old Testament"; sounds religious it must be helpful...I shudder to think how many have gone straight into the HRM without ever really hearing the Gospel.

 

[tribesman]

And it needs to be said as well that people going into this movement are led far astray before they get even get to the salvific dogma related to sacred names. It seems by then many have already chosen Law over Gospel (our natural inclination I suppose) and so the idea that the pronunciation of a word is what saves hardly seems outrageous. The great irony being that a large portion of what is taught as "restored" was either never authentic to begin with, or should be included in that which has passed away, the Old Covenant.

Needless to say mixing law and gospel is a common problem within the heb roots movement. But not all are that uncareful with what is authentic and later inventions. Some are pretty accurate in their differentiation. But, yes, there are also those, not so few, who are outrageously off base in that wise.

 

[edward99]

This going back in forth about Jews and Gentiles is getting a little tired.

Well, this is our responsibility because we have blurred the distinctions. The reason this keeps coming up when it should be simple and easy is a direct result of both Dispensationalism and the HRMs.