God's will

[CRC]

At the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s humiliation he was obviously the most powerful man on Earth. Also Nebuchadnezzar did not worship the God of the Bible. That being so it would be easy to delude himself in to thinking that his rule and will was supreme. However he would be forced to acknowledge that the God of Daniel’s will and authority superseded his. The words of Daniel 4:35 are the words of King Nebuchadnezzar’s admission and realization in recognition of the superiority the Daniel’s God who foretold and caused his temporary insanity and subsequent revival and reinstatement.


After Nebuchadnezzar had lived like an animal for those seven times, or years, God restored his understanding and he had to admit ‘that no one can stay the hand of the Most High or say to him: What have you been doing?’ More than that, the Babylonian ruler showed he had further learned his lesson, by saying: “Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are justice, and because those who are walking in pride”—as the king had done—“he is able to humiliate.”

 

[forsha]

But it's evident not everyone will be. So is it predetermined?

John 6:39, And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jesus did not die for all of mankind, only those that God gave him.

 

[forsha]

You're draggin' me. . .

I'm not trying to. I really haven't heard that terminology before, maybe I am a little untaught in some things, or maybe it is my age, so can you explain to this old man? I am really not dragging you, I don't think, because I don't even know what "dragging you" means, I guess I am just to old to keep up with the latest terminology.

 

[forsha]

I'm not really sure what that means. I'm trying to get myself back in the church and learn more about God. Could you explain, please?

It is my belief that eternal salvation is by the grace of God without the help of man in any way. I believe that God is all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present, and that he will accomplish all of his will. Man can not keep God from doing anything that he wants to do. A lot of people on this forum believe that man's free will can alter God's will, but that is contradicting to other scriptures, such as Dan 4:35.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[Delivery]

Can anyone explain what message Dan 4:35 is conveying? God's will is always better than our will. Does God accomplish all of his will?

It means God is the all-powerful Creator of the universe and, therefore, us, weak, puny, foolish humans need to submit our will to God's will.

[SUP]2[/SUP] Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

[SUP]18[/SUP] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
[SUP]20[/SUP] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

[SUP]18[/SUP] The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

[SUP]17[/SUP] The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

 

[forsha]

It is God's will that none perish.
But we know many will choose to live in sin and thereby perish.

Dan 4:35 means we can't MAKE God or FORCE God to do anything.



^i^ Responding to OP

I think that you are quoting from 2 Pet 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. We have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 to find out who Peter is talking about when he says "us-ward". The us-ward are them that have obtained like precious faith. these are men who have already been born of the Spirit. When we are born of the Spirit we have a fellowship with God, but when we are enticed by satan to yield ourselves to the lust of the flesh and sin, we lose our fellowship with God until we repent. "Perish" in the Greek means destroy, die, lose, mar. Peter is warning these born again Christians, when they sin, as we all do, that they should repent so they will not "lose" their fellowship with God. He is not talking about them losing their eternal salvation. "Salvation" means "a deliverance", and when we repent and God forgives us, there is a deliverance(salvation) takes place. this is why so many people have contradicting salvation scriptures, because they do not divide the eternal salvation from the deliverances that we receive almost daily. We do have evidence in the scriptures that all mankind will not be saved eternally. John 6:39 says that Jesus died for the sins of those that God gave him only, not all mankind, and that he would not lose any of them, but raise them all up at the last day. Contrary to what most people believe, God does not love all mankind. Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. There are some people recorded in Ps 73 that God does not chasten. Ps 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued"(chastened) like other men. There are no contradicting scriptures in the bible and if there seems to be to you, you are not interpreting them right.

 

[forsha]

At the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s humiliation he was obviously the most powerful man on Earth. Also Nebuchadnezzar did not worship the God of the Bible. That being so it would be easy to delude himself in to thinking that his rule and will was supreme. However he would be forced to acknowledge that the God of Daniel’s will and authority superseded his. The words of Daniel 4:35 are the words of King Nebuchadnezzar’s admission and realization in recognition of the superiority the Daniel’s God who foretold and caused his temporary insanity and subsequent revival and reinstatement.


After Nebuchadnezzar had lived like an animal for those seven times, or years, God restored his understanding and he had to admit ‘that no one can stay the hand of the Most High or say to him: What have you been doing?’ More than that, the Babylonian ruler showed he had further learned his lesson, by saying: “Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are justice, and because those who are walking in pride”—as the king had done—“he is able to humiliate.”

You have reported that account accurately, but were you trying to make a point by doing so?

 

[tribesman]

There is a difference between what God allows and His perfect will.

Rom.1

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom.12

[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[forsha]

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


All of these scriptures are directed to "the elect and eternally saved children of God. None of them are instructing those that are already saved eternally how to get saved eternally.

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

All of the scriptures you have listed are directed to "the elect, and eternally saved children of God". They are not telling eternally saved people how to obtain eternal salvation.

 

[forsha]

It means God is the all-powerful Creator of the universe and, therefore, us, weak, puny, foolish humans need to submit our will to God's will.

[SUP]2[/SUP]Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

[SUP]18[/SUP] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
[SUP]20[/SUP] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

[SUP]18[/SUP] The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

[SUP]17[/SUP] The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

I am familiar with those scriptures, but are they supposed to be an explanation to Dan 4:35?

 

[forsha]

There is a difference between what God allows and His perfect will.

I do not question that God allows things to happen, but it is his decision(will) to allow them to happen. Man can not alter God's will.

 

[tribesman]

I do not question that God allows things to happen, but it is his decision(will) to allow them to happen. Man can not alter God's will.

Agreed. Man can not alter God's will. Then we can talk about what is causing God to decide certain things to happen and then we are into the issue of God's revealed will and hidden counsel.

 

[dcontroversal]

At the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s humiliation he was obviously the most powerful man on Earth. Also Nebuchadnezzar did not worship the God of the Bible. That being so it would be easy to delude himself in to thinking that his rule and will was supreme. However he would be forced to acknowledge that the God of Daniel’s will and authority superseded his. The words of Daniel 4:35 are the words of King Nebuchadnezzar’s admission and realization in recognition of the superiority the Daniel’s God who foretold and caused his temporary insanity and subsequent revival and reinstatement.


After Nebuchadnezzar had lived like an animal for those seven times, or years, God restored his understanding and he had to admit ‘that no one can stay the hand of the Most High or say to him: What have you been doing?’ More than that, the Babylonian ruler showed he had further learned his lesson, by saying: “Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are justice, and because those who are walking in pride”—as the king had done—“he is able to humiliate.”

I personally believe that Nebuchadnezzar ended up being a saved child of God based upon the three statements that he makes about the God of Daniel, and how each statement shows and sets forth a progressive revelation of truth concerning Daniel's God.....just my view.....we will know in the day of judgment for sure........!

 

[SeaBass]

Can man, by his free will, alter God's will?

YES!!!

In Jonah 3 God sent Jonah to Nineveh with the message that in 40 days Nineveh SHALL BE overthrown.

From Jer 18:8 God has promised that "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." God also promised "If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." v10 God cannot break His promises and lie.

Upon hearing Jonah, the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent, they turned from their evil. And God did as He said He would do in Jer 18:8 in Jonah 3:10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Nineveh of its own freewill chose to repent, turned from its evil. So God repented, changed, altered His course of action from overthrowing Nineveh as He said He would in Jonah 3:4.



A second point I would add is the bible expresses God's will in at least 3 different ways:

1) God's permissive will where God simply allows some thing to happen. In Rom 1:24ff Gentiles chose of their own freewill to do that which was evil and God allowed them to do so, God "gave them up" permitting them pursue the evil they chose to do.

2) God's decretive will. When God created the universe He decreed it into existence, no one can thwart what God decrees.

3) God's perceptive will, unlike what God decrees, His perceptive will is what God desires, wishes men would do. God made salvation available to man through Christ, so God desires, wishes all men would obey by repenting and be saved 2 Pet 3:9; Heb 5:9. Unlike God's decretive will, God does not always get what His perceptive will wishes men would do, as in Mt 23:37, Christ "would" but those Jews "would not".

Therefore when you speak of God's will, it must be understood within the context which of these three is being expressed.

 

[SeaBass]

Is it your thinking that man, because of his free will, can stay God's hand?

When it comes to God and man, it is not about causation as Calvinists think but is about CONTROL. God does not cause men to do certain things against man's own will but God controls the situation. God has foreknowledge of the choices men will make using his freewill. God simply using His foreknowledge, already knowing what choices men will make and controls how man's choices play out.

Prov 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

You have the freewill to devise you own plans, yet God controls how those plans play out. God does not cause you to plan a certain thing, you choose the plan, God controls its outcome.

Lastly, in the context of Daniel:

Dan 4:17, it was God's decree that Nebuchadnezzar learn the lesson that God rules in the kingdom of Men.

Yet God allowed/permitted Nebuchadnezzar to use his freewill in how he would learn this lesson.

Nebuchadnezzar could have freely chosen to take Daniels advise of Dan 4:27 and learn the lesson the easy way. Yet Nebuchadnezzar of his own freewill chose to learn it the hard way, Dan 4:30-35.

 

[SeaBass]

John 6:39, And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jesus did not die for all of mankind, only those that God gave him.

Are the ones "given" certain people God randomly, unconditionally selected for no particular reason before the world began? No. The ones "given" are the ones that have freely chosen to answer the gospel call, the ones who have freely chosen to respond to God's invitation to salvation, Rev 22:17 "whosoever will"

 

[Elin]

There is a difference between what God allows and His perfect will.

I'm thinkin' the Bible knows nothing of God unwillingly "allowing" what he does not wish to happen
(Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16;
Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zec 1:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Rev 17:17).

Nor does the Bible know anything of a "permissive" will of God (Ex 4:21, 9:16; 1Sa 18:10;
2Sa 24:1, 10; 1Kgs 22:23; Job 12:16; Eze 14:9; Da 4:25).

The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey and does not,
and the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Dt 29:29), and
which is always done (Is 46:10-11).

 

[SeaBass]

Even a Calvinsts as RC Sproul understands the bible expresses God's will in various ways:

The Will of God by R.C. Sproul

Excerpt from above link:

1. The three meanings of the will of God:

(a) Sovereign decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass
whatsoever He decrees. This is hidden to us until it happens.

(b) Preceptive will is God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the
power but not the right to break.

(c) Will of disposition describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals
what is pleasing to Him.

2. God's sovereign "permission" of human sin is not His moral approval.

 

[Elin]

I'm thinkin' the Bible knows nothing of God unwillingly "allowing" what he does not wish to happen
(Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16;
Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zec 1:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Rev 17:17).

Nor does the Bible know anything of a "permissive" will of God (Ex 4:21, 9:16;
1Sa 18:10; 2Sa 24:1, 10; 1Kgs 22:23; Job 12:16; Eze 14:9; Da 4:25).

The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey and does not,
and the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know
(Dt 29:29), and which is always done (Is 46:10-11).

Even a Calvinsts as RC Sproul understands the bible expresses God's will in various ways:

The Will of God by R.C. Sproul

Excerpt from above link:

1. The three meanings of the will of God:

(a) Sovereign decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass
whatsoever He decrees. This is hidden to us until it happens.

(b) Preceptive will is God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the
power but not the right to break.

(c) Will of disposition describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals
what is pleasing to Him.

2. God's sovereign "permission" of human sin is not His moral approval.

You did not address the Biblical testimony, nor reconcile it to your human testimony.