Grace vs works!

[forsha]

My thoughts only...........

We are saved by Grace through faith, and that a gift from God...........not OF works........after salvation, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (when we receive Him) prepares (Sanctifies) us to produce good works which are a FRUIT of our salvation.

Good works are important to every believer, for God has purposed us..........He has a plan for us, and we must be open to realizing what His will is for us in this world, and then be obedient to His will.

My thoughts only.........

Uh O. You say you are eternally saved by grace and not of works, then you say "we have to receive the Holy Spirit". receiving is an action word. I don't think the spiritually dead person can RECIEVE him according to 1 Cor 2:14 and Eph 2:5. What are your thoughts?

 

[kennethcadwell]

How can those of us who have received the dawning of the Holy Spirit in our hearts ever have a dead faith? You assume in great error that those of us who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us like fountains of living water have a "dead,inactive,non-producing and disobedient to His teachings faith" Who has deceived you?

I am not assuming anything as I have talked to many on here that deny they have to keep, follow, and obey all of the Lords teachings in debates on here. The problem with that is that the true active faith will continue in those things and defend those things He said, and a false or disobedient faith will not do or defend His teachings.
That is the place I am coming from to go against those who say we do not have to obey and follow what Jesus said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And try to say they have salvation even though they are disobedient, and by not defending and standing up for His words is clear of that. Remember the Lord Jesus Himself said not all that call on Him to be their Lord will inherit the kingdom of heaven (eternal life). He said there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, because there will be many who believe they are saved and are not. This is because they still live in willful sins, iniquity, darkness, carnal minded, selfishness, unforgiving, and unloving ways. Therefore their faith is a dead faith that will lead to the second death. Matthew 25 gives us 3 parables that shows this example.

 

[forsha]

That is not the case with God?

So is that why He sent His only Son to die for us ALL? Not some ....ALL.
Is that why He says love your neighbour.....and not only SOME?
Why is it that God specifically tells us to love our neighbour? He wants us to show the same love towards one another as He did for us.

How many times in the bible do we see, over and over again God forgiving.....and STILL loving His children, even blessing them after they have rebelled.

I don't know what your understanding of unconditional love is exactly, but from what I know is that God did not create us to MAKE us love him.

That would completely go against the big picture as to why He would give us the choice to decide between good and evil.
If He MADE us love Him, there would be no purpose for this fallen world and we would already be living in heaven with Him as His slaves.

God is love, not a monster.

If God loves all mankind and wants all mankind to go to heaven, please explain Rom 9: 11-13 - 20-21 and John 6:39. Dan 4:35.

 

[forsha]

I understand the Greek usage and how some words have many meanings, but the reason for was used in Acts 2:38 is because the translators use scripture to interpret scripture. Yes they did get it wrong sometimes but in this case I do not believe they did. Because the Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 made a clear statement that if repentance of sins is not made we will still perish. So repentance does have to be made in order to receive remission.
If you want to try and make it say in recognition of, or in light of, then you are initially saying that remission is received before repentance/confession is even made. Which the Lord Jesus and other scriptures make clear it does not. Repentance is done before remission is given, baptism (baptizo=immersion in water) was commanded by the Lord, and 1 John 1:9, 2:1-2 says confession has to be made on future sins to receive remission.

God bless

Then why did Jesus have to die on the cross, it was for the remission of sins for all those that God gave him (limited atonement) and he will not lose any of them, not even one, but will raise them up at the last day (John 6:39). Confession and repentance had nothing to do with their eternal salvation. Confession and repentance has every thing to do with keeping your relationship with God after he has already saved you eternally. If you don't separate the timely and eternal salvation scriptures you will continue to have contradicting scriptures.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Here is a scripture from Hebrews, and biblical scholars differ on who they think wrote this epistle.
They believe either Paul or an understudy who learned under Paul wrote this epistle, and here is what they say;


Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


These people once were given the gift as the rest but because they love the darkness (sins) more then they love the light they have fallen away from the Lord, and can not be restored by repentance because they will not give up their sinful ways doing themselves harm. Notice that it says do themselves harm, not that the Lord takes anything away, but they take themselves from the love of Him.

 

[SeaBass]

The context shows the OT type is 8 souls saved by water. If you look at the account in Genesis 7, it is very evident that nothing and nobody was saved by water! The water destroyed everybody and everything that was not on the ark. Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture! When there seems to be a contradiction (as in this case), it is necessary to find a reading that reconciles both scriptures. In this case, διά, the word translated as 'by' can also mean from (though it usually means through). If we read διά as from, the contradiction is reconciled. I prefer the KJV; but sometimes the translators of the KJV, and most subsequent translations, let their doctrinal beliefs drive their translation instead of giving a straightforward rendering of the Greek text. In any case it is the ark, NOT THE WATER, which is the type. The ark is a figure of faith which leads to obedience. The NT antitype is faith which leads to salvation. Faith is not a work; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:9).
Since saving faith leads to habitual obedience; it is natural that salvation leads to obedience in identifying one's self with Christ through baptism. A person who accepts Jesus on their deathbed is just as saved as the person who is baptized.

1 Pet 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Peter said "water" (hydro) and did not say "saved by the ark".

We are not saved by an ark under the NT but saved by water baptism. That is the type to anti-type connection Peter is making:

OT type------saved by (through) water
NT antiype---saved by (through) water

See how the OT type is the mirror reflection, counterpart to the NT anti-type? The inspired apostle was not wrong when he wrote "saved by WATER".

(Changing "by" to "through" does not make any difference..."saved by water baptism" or "saved through water baptism"..same thing.)


Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Gal 5:6; Mk 2:1-5. Faith is dead, useless and unable to save if it is not a work

 

[kennethcadwell]

Then why did Jesus have to die on the cross, it was for the remission of sins for all those that God gave him (limited atonement) and he will not lose any of them, not even one, but will raise them up at the last day (John 6:39). Confession and repentance had nothing to do with their eternal salvation. Confession and repentance has every thing to do with keeping your relationship with God after he has already saved you eternally. If you don't separate the timely and eternal salvation scriptures you will continue to have contradicting scriptures.

No I am not contradicting scriptures because no scripture says what you make it say that remission was given immediately at the cross. It says His sacrifice once and for all give us a way to receive remission through Him, and Jesus says how that remission is received. And He clearly says through faith, repentance, baptism, and continuing in a confessing and forgiving way of life. Walking in love, light, obedience, and forgiveness is all signs of a true faith, as a true faith in and of Him is an active faith.

Can you say you believe and love Him, but deny His commands ? NO

Can you say you believe and love Him, and hate others ? NO

Can you say you believe and love Him, and serve sin also ? NO

 

[SeaBass]

You would be correct if God intended baptism to precede salvation; but, in fact, God intends to have Baptism follow salvation.

In any case God does not expect us to remain perfectly sinless after Salvation:

1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV

God has chosen to save men by the means of water baptism and that is why in verses as Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 baptism comes BEFORE saved/remission of sins.

Peter said to be baptized for remission of sins. So when one is water baptized his sins are then washed away by the blood of Christ, but that washing away of sins does not start and stop at water baptism. The cleansing away of sins by the blood of Christ is ongoing as long as the Christian continues to walk in the light, 1 Jn 1:7.

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we (continue to) walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son (continues to) cleanse us from all sin."

So this walk in the light and cleansing away of sins by the blood of Christ begins at baptism and then there is a continued cleansing by Christ's blood "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light.

 

[SeaBass]

If one were to translate ' the ark brought eight souls safe (ly) through water that would also work and would be less forced than translating διά as from. But 'from' is not without precedent.

Peter said "eight souls were saved by water."

 

[forsha]

I am not reverting back to the law, as I do not teach the Mosaic law for salvation, but once again repentance, baptism, confession, and forgiveness is not works of the law. They are spiritual works of love done within faith of Christ unto salvation. Lord Jesus is the one who said repent of sins or perish, not me. Lord Jesus said confess Him before others, or He will deny you. Lord Jesus is the one who said forgive others or you will not be forgiven. And it is the Lord Jesus who commanded baptism to be done as part of the sanctification of a believer, not me.
So all in all to say these things are not needed is to me to say the Lord lied, and to say we can deny all that He taught and still have salvation. However there is more than one scripture that says if we are disobedient we will not get salvation, and Luke 12 is one of those chapters that says this.

I have explained 2 Pet 3:9 to you before, but I will repeat it here as you continually bring it up. You are taking this scripture out of context. In order to find out who Peter is talking to in verse 9, we have to determine who the "us-ward" are. 2 Pet 1:1, "to them that have obtained like precious faith" reminding them of God's promises and warning them of the scoffers to repent so they would not perish (lose their fellowship with God), not their eternal life. All of the "not me's" will effect our relationship with God but will not effect our eternal salvation. Remember John 6:39, not even one will be lost. If we are disobedient and do not repent we will lose our relationship with God, not our eternal salvation. Luke 12 is a pretty long chapter, can you point out the exact verse that says "if we don't repent we will lose our eternal salvation"?

 

[notuptome]

Peter said "eight souls were saved by water."

So you are teaching that the flood saved eight souls? The ark had nothing to do with their preservation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

One shows they have repented by their works. Just like we show our faith by our works (James 2:18) but faith in essence is not these works. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance.

So you simply define repentance as "works" and still claim we are saved by "works"? When God saw their works, that they turned from their wicked way, then God "relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them." They showed by their works that they have truly repented. In Jonah 3:4, we see that Jonah told the people of Ninevah that the city of Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days if they do not repent of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). The people of Nineveh repented "changed their minds" at the preaching of Jonah, believed God, and "turned from their evil ways" - "fruit of repentance" (Jonah 3:5,10; Matthew 3:8). The content of their faith was believing that God would overthrow Nineveh if they did not turn from their wicked ways, *not trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption for salvation. Unfortunately, the city of Nineveh reverted within one generation to its old pagan ways (Nahum 3:7,8). Turning from their evil ways was the fruit of their repentance. If we do our best to turn from our evil ways (self-reformation), yet fail to place our faith in Christ as the only means of our salvation, are we saved? No.

2 Corinthians 12:21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced. Does practicing sin represent the fruit of repentance? No. Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. These are the unrighteous, not the righteous (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

No repentance = no salvation = no works/fruit of repentance/salvation. Repentance is not simply another work in a series of works in an effort to receive salvation by works, as you teach. When we repent in receiving salvation, we change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and any form of self trust in works and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. No longer practicing sin (such were some of you - 1 Corinthians 6:11) and good works are the fruit of repentance/faith. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. So repentance/faith are not simply works that merit our salvation. Saved through faith is not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and through belief/faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). Jesus Christ is the all sufficient means of our salvation. No supplements needed. So good works do not help save us. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Comparing Mt 12:41 with Jonah 3:8-10 it is too painfully obvious that repentance is a work a work God saw. Just as in Mk 2:1-5 the men did work in removing the roof and lowered the sick man and Jesus "saw their faith" what Jesus saw was the WORK those men did calling that work faith. So both faith and repentance are both called WORKS, works that could be seen.

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Upon repenting and turning to God one MUST "do works meet for repentance". To do works meet for repentance means one must conduct his life in a manner that shows he has repented, to live as 'men who have repented should live', show fruits of having repented. Part of these works/fruits in how one lives is keeping the commands of Christ. If a man does not live as one who has repented in doing works/having fruits in keeping Christ's commands, then he never repented. If one does not work in keeping Christ's commands, he does not even love Christ, Jn 14:15 much less repented.

2 Cor 12:20 "For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:"

What good would it have done these Corinthians to simply "mentally" determine not to continue to commit these sins, yet continue to actively commit them? None. Repentance therefore cannot be just some mental process and nothing more. It requires a change in behaviour, change in how one acts, change in what one does...a change that requires WORKS.


No work = no repentance = no salvation

 

[SeaBass]

There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. Once again, when we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (AND NOT TRUSTING IN OUR WORKS) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

We must obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) to be accounted as righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

I'm sure that these many people in Matthew 7:22 who were obviously trusting in their works to save them would have given the same answer that you did. Did Jesus' answer to them in verse 23 imply that they served #2 or #1? Salvation by works is not obedience and is not serving #2. You continue to misinterpret Romans 6:16 by stressing "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. We become "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (and are no longer servants of sin unto death) the very moment that we BELIEVE (Romans 4:5; 10:10).

CONTEXT - James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will show you my faith by my works.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "declared God just." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Those who refuse to believe the gospel have refused to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience and we believe in our heart (and not just in our head) that God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:10). Notice in 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). There is no room here for salvation by works.

Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people use this verse to support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14).

Again, you are a (1) servant of sin unto death or (2) servant of obedience unto righteousness.

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Faith only supporters continue to obfuscate for their faith only doctrine has rules them out serving obedience unto righteousness and they are not about to admit they serve sin unto death. This is why you also obfuscated with the rest of your post and did not answer if you serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

 

[posthuman]

are we serving "obedience unto righteousness" here or are we serving "contention unto condemnation and confusion" ?

i know a Judge, and an Advocate -- i long for His mercy, and love it

 

[SeaBass]

You missed it so I have highlighted it for you in RED. Take a close look at it and read what comes before and after so that you can understand it. Here we go.
This is how the faith only crowd operates in the plan of God walking in faith obedience unto righteousness which keeps them from serving sin unto death.

...and this kills your man-made faith only doctrine.

Paul did not say "faith only unto righteousness" but "OBEDIENCE unto righteousness'

No one can be saved without being righteous and Paul clearly points out that obedience leads one to being a servant of righteousness. In the next two verses (Rom 6:17,18) Paul shows how those Romans had "obedience unto righteousness".

Paul said those Roman obeyed from the heart, then being justified, they then "became" servants of righteousness.

Verse 16---------obedience UNTO righteousness
Verse 17,18----obeyed from the heart UNTO justification/righteousness....

They did not "become" servants of righteousness until AFTER they obeyed from the heart.

 

[posthuman]

Paul did not say "faith only unto righteousness" but "OBEDIENCE unto righteousness'

curious if -- have you read,

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
(Philippians 3:8-9)

?

iirc Paul wrote that ↑

 

[SeaBass]

1 Pet 3:21, Salvation is a deliverance. If you use all salvation scriptures as eternal deliverance they will not harmonize. The saving in 1 Pet 3:21 is a timely deliverance. Baptism is an answer of a good conscience. They were saved eternally before baptism for they could not have answered with a good conscience. We already are saved eternally by grace before we have access to faith because faith is a fruit of the Spirit. How can you have an apple unless you first have an apple tree?

Not a single verse has one saved BEFORE being baptized. You are trying to rewrite, change the order of verses as Mk 16:16; ACts 2:38 that both put baptism BEFORE saved/remission of sins.

 

[SeaBass]

Rom 5:2 does not have reference to eternal salvation. My bible has a reference to Rom 10:9, which is also not talking about eternal life, but an abundant life that we have access to here in this world, the church that Jesus set up being a part of this life. The "shall be saved" is not referring to eternal, but a deliverance here on this earth if we follow God's commandments and enjoy the abundant life. If you try to use all salvation scriptures as eternal you will have trouble getting them to harmonize.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

"grace wherein we stand" IS about eternal salvation. One must first have faith to access God's saving grace.

 

[forsha]

I have heard this debate many of times about eternal salvation and timely salvation scriptures.
But in my studies not one scripture separates as such, as each time salvation or saved is mentioned it is referring to eternal life salvation. Matthew 10:22 and Matthew 7:21 say we have to endure first and do the will of God in our life first before eternal life salvation is received. As the Lord clearly says in 7:21 we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (eternal life) if they do not do the will of God in their life. This is a clear scripture that says doing comes first, then eternal life is given.
People want to then take and say God's will is just to believe in Him and love others, which is true but they are both continuation words. A continuation of belief and to continue to love others, and then the Lord even gives us what believe in Him means in Luke 6:46-49. In that scripture He says there are 3 parts to believe in Him; coming to Him, hearing what He says, and doing what He says. We can not separate any part of this from the others, as the Lord then tells us that those who do not do them do not have them as there Lord.

Matt 10:22, When you are enduring, you are receiving a deliverance (salvation) by the act of enduring. You will not make all scriptures harmonize if you persist on using all salvation scriptures as eternal. Mat 7:21, Throughout the scriptures there are several names that are referring to the church that Jesus set up, the kingdom of heaven, the church of God, the church of Christ, the little flock, the remnant, the bride of Christ, the church of the first born, the church in the wilderness, the new Jerusalem, and more. The church is also referred to as, the few. In the same chapter in verse 13 and 14 The wide gate are all of God's children who are believing and teaching a false doctrine, and the strait gate are all of God's children are a part of the church that Jesus set up and are teaching his doctrine that leads to an abundant life that we can live here in this world. and few there be that find it. This "few" is not talking about the amount that will enter eternal life because they are numbered as the sand of the sea and the stars in heaven.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I have explained 2 Pet 3:9 to you before, but I will repeat it here as you continually bring it up. You are taking this scripture out of context. In order to find out who Peter is talking to in verse 9, we have to determine who the "us-ward" are. 2 Pet 1:1, "to them that have obtained like precious faith" reminding them of God's promises and warning them of the scoffers to repent so they would not perish (lose their fellowship with God), not their eternal life. All of the "not me's" will effect our relationship with God but will not effect our eternal salvation. Remember John 6:39, not even one will be lost. If we are disobedient and do not repent we will lose our relationship with God, not our eternal salvation. Luke 12 is a pretty long chapter, can you point out the exact verse that says "if we don't repent we will lose our eternal salvation"?

I know what you are trying to do, as some others have done in the past to prove their point, and that is you want those exact words to be in the scripture. However depending on who is speaking and the verbiage they use to explain something says the same as lose salvation but in different words.
Let me start with giving two questions, then follow it with Luke 12;

Where do unbelievers go at judgment ?

Does the bible only state not believing in Jesus is unbelief, or does it say disobedience is also unbelief ?



[h=1]Luke 12:45-48[/h]45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.


The context here is that the punishment a believer (servant) will face will be worse at judgment then the punishment that a unbeliever who never knew the Lord will face. Because they lived a life of disobedience even though he knew what the Lord requires of him to do (how to live), and did not do it.