Grape Juice and God’s Judgment

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,691
13,135
113
#41
That's my biggest complaint with "buildings".... a functional building is a benefit to a church, I think, but it can rapidly get out of hand, trying to make it stylish enough..

Back in my carpenter days, I helped build a church building in Pampa, Tx... and they were putting in really nice wood.... I think it was either red oak or walnut, can't remember for sure, ALL throughout the building.

I was thinking, something cheaper would be just as functional, and probably cut the cost of the building by a couple hundred thousand dollars....

It's easy to go overboard with stuff like that, when it doesn't improve the fellowship of the church at all...

Functional and cheap is the way I think buildings should be built.... and make them multi-purpose, so that they are not only used a few hours on two days out of a week.

Good stewardship is called for...
i worked as a pipe organ builder for several years. we put together and repaired instruments that cost as much as a few million dollars, and i worked in many extremely expensive, ornate places of worship. we certainly did not ever skimp on materials or process.

it was something that troubled me too, how so much wealth was put into these things, and couldn't it be put to better use? but on the other hand, the purpose of these instruments, and of the elaborate chapels that they sometimes were installed in, is to worship God, and to be used in service of praise. and many times, the money that funded them was largely from a few wealthy people in the churches that earmarked it for this use, or they were put in churches who had a great deal of wealth.
as much as sometimes i fretted internally about it, i don't think i ever became aware of any church that was putting a few hundred thousand dollars into this and at the same time neglecting other forms of service. the big ones are in churches that have annual budgets much larger.

something that came to mind often, was how Judas complained about the use of the perfume that the woman anointed Jesus with, how that it could have been sold and the money used for the poor, but Christ rebuked him. was it just because Judas' intent was to steal? or is there more to that? at the end of the day, going to great expense for a church building or instrument is an effort to honor God, isn't it?

it's still a conflict in me, though i've not been actively building organs for some 4 or 5 years -- and i'm glad to not be on any budget committee!
but i don't regret all the time that i spent doing that, and will think of myself as an organ builder for the rest of my life - there are so few people in the country with that knowledge & skillset; instead i look at that work as service to God, and thank Him for leading me to the vocation and using me in it. it was a blessing to have a part in that, and the things i helped accomplish will serve God in worship, in churches up and down the east coast for an hundred years. could have been built cheaper? yes, for sure. but the temple itself was very extravagant too, right?

and at the same time, in me there's still this conflict. :p
i could argue both ways, even at the same time!
"
easy to go overboard" for sure!
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,691
13,135
113
#42
No, Post, I am nowhere near as good a writer as Jeff. I proofed a book for him, simply because I happen to spell better than he does, and I probably paid a bit more attention in English class than he did.
you could certainly have made all the points he made though :)
you wouldn't have written it the same way is all
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#43
Reconizing the body of Christ now? That's a start. Acknowledging the love feast. Getting warm now. Next step, recognizing that all the saints of the body have gifts and functions that are shut down by clergy, an enigma.
 
B

bikerchaz

Guest
#44
Thank you Willie T.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#45
you could certainly have made all the points he made though :)
you wouldn't have written it the same way is all
And, unfortunately for me, it is that very difference that makes Jeff such a good writer, and me, just a person who reports. LOL
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,655
1,401
113
#46
something that came to mind often, was how Judas complained about the use of the perfume that the woman anointed Jesus with, how that it could have been sold and the money used for the poor, but Christ rebuked him. was it just because Judas' intent was to steal? or is there more to that? at the end of the day, going to great expense for a church building or instrument is an effort to honor God, isn't it?
That's a very good point. I never looked at it that way..
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#47
Grape Juice and God’s Judgment

Growing up in Church, taking communion was a pretty frightening and unnerving ritual. ”What’s so ‘unnerving’ about washing down a sticky, newspaper tasting wafer with a shot of Welch’s grape juice?”, you may ask. Well it wasn’t the experience itself, although for a kid, the enjoyment factor did hinge a lot on who was supplying the wafers that week. There’s those little, rectangular cracker-esque ones which weren’t so bad. Then you’d always have a few months of having to swallow down their more circular cousin, what I call the protestant Eucharist. You know the ones I’m talking about? The little mini circles with the cross stamped in the middle? The ones that have the consistency of paper mache? Yep, those ones. For a kid, that little hit of Welch’s was a welcomed sensation in the mouth after having to force one of those fellows down the hatch.

Seriously though, the edibility of the communion elements aside, what was it that unnerved me so about taking communion? Well, for me it was that lingering thought that I could possibly fall under divine judgment if I “did it wrong”. You see, in every communion service there is the mandatory ”moment of silence”, in which we are encouraged to examine ourselves, making sure that we are “right with God” before proceeding any further. We are told, from the scripture of course, that if we “do it wrong”, that is, if we partake of the body and blood of Jesus in an unworthy manner, we could wind up being candidates for a steaming plate of Divine wrath which could include, but is certainly not limited to sickness, physical weakness and (gulp) death. You can imagine all of the terrifying images dancing in the minds of church kids during that “moment of silence”. That’s the Church for you, sucking the fun out of Welch’s since 1869. Seriously though, from whence come the traditions of a moment of silence, the quickie self exam and the threats of pestilence and woe for “doing communion wrong”? Well, where most heresies come from of course, the Bible!

Jesus once stated that the traditions of men concerning Biblical truths actually have the ability to render God’s word ineffective. You heard me right. Men’s traditional approaches to scripture and theology actually have the capability to, in effect, neuter God’s word and rob it of its efficacy. How so? Well, we come up with an idea as to what a particular text of scripture is saying, and eventually, after years of propagating said idea, it becomes law. It becomes settled like concrete in the collective psyche of Christendom that this or that is what a certain passage is saying. The problem is that a lot of the times we are dead wrong in our interpretations. Why? Because we interpret scripture with an agenda. We read into it what we want to see, and as a result, we come up with all sorts of wacky notions and bizarre doctrines. The biggest issue though, is that we’ve rendered the word of God ineffective. How? You see, once we’ve settled upon what a passage means, but have actually misinterpreted the passage, we are unable to see what is actually being said because we are stuck in our traditional understanding. Suddenly, the true message of the passage is completely lost and almost unrecognizable because of the way we have twisted and misinterpreted it. And with that, “KAPOW”, God’s word is rendered ineffective in our lives.

Unfortunately, 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, which happens to be the most used communion passage in the Bible, is no exception when it comes to our “ineffectualizing” of God’s word. (And yes, I know that’s not a real word.) First let’s take a look at the most oft quoted portions of this verse, which, to the religiously astute, will be immediately recognizable:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So far, so good. Let’s keep on reading…

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

OK, and that would be where the “unnerving” part comes into play. It seems pretty obvious doesn’t it? Paul appears to be stating that when we come together and partake of communion in an improper way, it is possible that death and/or sickness could result. It seems to be saying that God disciplined the Corinthians, using sickness and death, in order to teach them that they had better get their communion-taking skills right…or else.

However, as we expand our view of the passage, looking at the sentences that sandwich in this most quoted portion, something slightly different comes into view. Let’s take a look at how Paul opens this particular section of his letter to Corinth:

17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

For starters, it’s important to understand that the early churches “communion services” were vastly different from our own. They didn’t squeeze it in at the end of a Sunday morning service, nor did they sandwich it in between the praise & worship and the sermon. For the early Church, the celebration of the Lord’s supper was a very big deal. A typical meeting in the early Church consisted in what were called love feasts, or simply, the agape. Jude mentions these celebratory gatherings in verse 12 of his one chapter[ed] epistle. The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology states: “…it is evident that that church observed the practice of meeting together for a common meal before partaking of the Lord’s Supper…” This “common meal” is what became known as the agape, or, the Love Feast.

To put it simply, the Love Feast was a meal shared by the body of believers prior to their receiving of communion. It was a joyous event, celebrated in the context of Christ and His work on the Cross. Now, we can clearly see that this is the event being written about by Paul in his address to the Corinthians. However, Paul states that he has no praises to heap upon Corinth in regards to their Love Feasts, only condemnation. Why so harsh there, Paul? Well, Paul tells us that when they came together for their meal, there were “divisions among them“. Apparently, all was not well in Corinth. There were little cliques gathered around different teachers and teachings, and evidently they became rather “clan-ish”, eating their meals with only those who were “on their side”. Paul rebukes them for this.

Paul goes on to address the real problem in even plainer speech. In verses 21 & 22, he reveals what the real problem was:

21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

You see, historically we are told that believers would invite the poor and hungry to their love feasts. Here, Paul states that the believers in Corinth were so caught up in themselves, that during the meal portion of the Love Feast, people were just rudely “filling their plates” as it were, not giving any thought to those who had not yet eaten. As a result, Paul tells us that the poor and hungry were left hungry and were, in Paul’s words, being humiliated and despised by the gluttonous Corinthians.

Are you seeing what the main problem was? Everybody was so caught up in their own little social circles that the poor and hungry were being ignored, going away empty-handed and empty-stomached. It is directly after these statements that Paul launches into his “you’re doing it wrong” tirade, in which he declares that many in Corinth have become sick, weak and even have died as a result of their behavior in the Love Feast. So let me ask you this, who was it that was growing weak, getting sick and who were those who were dying? And why was it happening? Did God just fly off the handle and decide to whack Himself a few Corinthians because of their irreverence? Let’s look again at Paul’s words:

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Now pay close attention to the underlined portions of scripture. Paul states that anyone who eats and drinks of the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body AND the blood of Jesus Christ. That’s simple enough. Paul is saying that when we behave this way, shaming the poor and neglecting the needier members of the Church, and proceed to “partake of communion”, we’re sinning against Christ’s sacrifice. Now, look at what Paul states in verse 29, he says that anyone who eats AND drinks without properly discerning the Lord’s body, eats and drinks condemnation upon himself. Now first Paul states that we sin against the body and the blood, but later he states that men subject themselves to judgment when they do not properly discern the Lord’s body! Why the omission of the ‘blood’ the second time around? Because in this instance, Paul is NOT speaking of the body of Christ represented by the communion bread. Rather, Paul is speaking here about the ACTUAL body of Christ, which is the Church!

Just one chapter later, in 1 Corinthians 12:27, Paul states: ”Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.” So, when Paul talks about discerning the Lord’s body in verse 29, he isn’t merely speaking of the communion bread. He is stating that they have taken part in a religious ritual which is meant to be a participation in the body and blood of Christ, however, the physical body of Christ, which is the Church, was being utterly neglected by these Corinthians. The poor, hungry member who was passed over during the Love Feast is the Body of Christ which was not properly discerned, not the communion bread! What was the result of their shenanigans? Well, many of their members were sick, weak and some had even died! Does this mean God was hurling lightning bolts at these dirty little gluttons? Some commentators believe that is what is being spoken. What seems more likely to me, however, is that the sick, weak members of the Corinthian church were those who were being passed over and not properly cared for. It was those members of the body who were going “undiscerned”, unfed and unnoticed that were suffering for the cliquish Corinthians lack of love and reverence.


Many commentators also assert that the sickness and death mentioned could have been coming upon the unruly Corinthians simply because of their gluttonous and drunken behavior. One way or another, it was the Corinthians actions that were brining about the judgment. They were eating and drinking condemnation upon themselves. How? By neglecting and not discerning the true Body of Christ! The Body which lies not in a wafer, but in the hungry Church member; in the single mother, the widow and the orphan!

Paul ends his address to the Corinthians on this subject with these words:

33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

Now remember, where was the judgment coming from? The Corinthians were bringing it upon themselves! How? By not discerning the true body of Christ, the Church. So what were Paul’s instructions? “Hey Corinthians, when you come together for your Love Feasts, and you know that the poor and the hungry will be amongst you, eat at home, so that when you come together, those who have nothing can eat their fill. In so doing, you will not be bringing death, sickness and weakness upon the needier members of the Body of Christ!”

Do you see how it works? Do you see what was really being said? This is not a scare tactic passage that should cause you to tremble each time that wafer hits your tongue. Communion should not be a fearful time, but a time in which we celebrate the finished work of the Cross and recognize the person and power of Christ at work in each and every member of the body! It’s a time to commune with Christ, not just through the elements, but in our relationships with each other. This is true communion: Partaking symbolically and spiritually of His death through the elements, but also participating in His life and body by being in loving relationship with the Church.

My point in writing this today was just to put one more little religious myth to bed so that we can get on enjoying the fullness of life that we have in Him. There are far too many religious myths and old wives’ tales floating around out there which only serve to keep us terrified of a God who simply wants to share His life and love with us. Our Greek inspired, Pagan view of the Father has made Him into an entity who can make even grape juice and bad crackers look like instruments of terror. I pray that this little blog helped you to detox a bit from these poisonous views of our loving Father.

Communing with Christ’s Body,
Jeff Turner
Interesting article, thanks.