Has the gift of speaking in tongues ceased? - Tim Conway
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M
Hey, my conscience is clear. I do call a spade, a spade. Your discussion and debate style is certainly problematic in my view...to put it lightly. Do what you wish. I'm not standing in your way if your leaving the scene. But you have now fired off a dozen hugely erroneous assertions about my blogs. I certainly have a few thoughts. I might also start a separate thread which asks the question "how do we recognize these satanic false agents of which Jesus forewarns?"
This is where I am talking about the 'fudging' and 'shaving' of the facts and the truth. I don't know how else to describe it: Contrary to your claim that you "don't care", you quite obviously realize there is something 'not good' going on here...in that you want to remove Smith one step away from responsibility. To actually climb up on that chair and use his body to pose in the shape of a symbol, the meaning of which is unknown to the millions of Christian teenagers who are his fans...
...yes, you make a beeline to distance Smith. You jump to a convenient conclusion. You beg a question. And NOW you're almost certainly going to be dishonest about THAT...no matter how obvious the purpose of your question-begging is. So yes, it is very, very, very difficult to have 'civilized' discussion with someone like yourself.
When someone poses in the shape of these two secret Runes which have secret messages which virtually no one in the Christian community would understand...where is your common sense? Smith deserves to have questions asked. There are HUGE questions outstanding. Come on, guy. Your comparison involving a billboard which is asking undeserved questions about "pedophilia"...is ridiculous and obnoxious.
I'd love to hear your explanation for...why Smith would pose in the shape of a secret symbol and go the trouble of forming his body in the shape of a Rune with a secret, unknown (to the Christian community) message...go to the trouble of climbing up on that chair...a chair whose undercarriage forms yet another secret symbol.
These are things pointed out by ex-occultist whistle-blowers, and other occult experts...and even a practicing occultist with whom I corresponded (which you would have noticed if you read far enough into my article).
I'm not coming up with this stuff on my own. There are many others who had pointed these things out long before me. I have just borrowed from their insights.
This is where I am talking about the 'fudging' and 'shaving' of the facts and the truth. I don't know how else to describe it: Contrary to your claim that you "don't care", you quite obviously realize there is something 'not good' going on here...in that you want to remove Smith one step away from responsibility. To actually climb up on that chair and use his body to pose in the shape of a symbol, the meaning of which is unknown to the millions of Christian teenagers who are his fans...
...yes, you make a beeline to distance Smith. You jump to a convenient conclusion. You beg a question. And NOW you're almost certainly going to be dishonest about THAT...no matter how obvious the purpose of your question-begging is. So yes, it is very, very, very difficult to have 'civilized' discussion with someone like yourself.
When someone poses in the shape of these two secret Runes which have secret messages which virtually no one in the Christian community would understand...where is your common sense? Smith deserves to have questions asked. There are HUGE questions outstanding. Come on, guy. Your comparison involving a billboard which is asking undeserved questions about "pedophilia"...is ridiculous and obnoxious.
I'd love to hear your explanation for...why Smith would pose in the shape of a secret symbol and go the trouble of forming his body in the shape of a Rune with a secret, unknown (to the Christian community) message...go to the trouble of climbing up on that chair...a chair whose undercarriage forms yet another secret symbol.
These are things pointed out by ex-occultist whistle-blowers, and other occult experts...and even a practicing occultist with whom I corresponded (which you would have noticed if you read far enough into my article).
I'm not coming up with this stuff on my own. There are many others who had pointed these things out long before me. I have just borrowed from their insights.
M
I don't know about a "debased mind" but...I've seen literally dozens (if not more) examples over my lifetime...of alleged "tongues-speaking"...and every single time it was nothing more than silly gibberish. Not within a million miles of anything that could be even remotely construed as an actual language. Just something like "hubbala bubbula hubbala". Utterly ridiculous.
It leads one to the reasonably reasonable conclusion that so-called "tongues-speaking" in the modern-day is nothing but hooey.
It leads one to the reasonably reasonable conclusion that so-called "tongues-speaking" in the modern-day is nothing but hooey.
'Divers tongues' is one of the gifts of the Spirit that the Bible teaches is given 'to profit withal.' There are many cases in modern times where one spoke in tongues and others understood it. I read of at least four such accounts at the Azusa Street Revival, and many accounts since. I met one person in person and have a kind of Internet penpal who is a theologian in Germany who knows of two people who do not know English, but speak in tongues in English. I have known two people who spoke in tongues and other people understood the language they were speaking. I have also read of a documented case of speaking in known tongues housed in a Lutheran seminary library (that isn't a Charismatic institution.) I believe that is on the Pneuma Review page.
The issue here is that your worldview, theological presuppositions, etc. won't allow for speaking in tongues. If you heard 100 people just babble, that doesn't mean no one speaks in tongues. If you prayed for 100 sick people and they all died, does that mean God never heals anyone? If you look under 100 rocks and don't find a worm, does that mean worms never live under rocks?
There is also the issue that you might not be able to recognize a word. One of the (cessationist) posters on these forums generated a couple of Malay words while trying to type out mock speaking in tongues. People can easily perceive real words in other languages as gibberish, especially if there is repetition.
I have a degree in Linguistics. I studied six foreign languages from two language families in college if Anglo-Saxon (Old English) counts as a foreign language. I have learned an additional language fluently that I learned more organically mainly from speaking it, outside of the classroom. I have been to eight different countries and lived in two countries other than my home country that speak foreign languages. So, as far as people go, I have a reasonable amount of training and ability to identify that something is a foreign human language.
I certainly have heard plenty of speaking in tongues that fits this criteria. I do remember going to a meeting of about 5000 people from the same fellowship of churches who were asked to speak in tongues at the same time (in the meeting, with no interpretation) and it did sound like they were all babbling the same thing. I'm not saying some of this stuff can't be learned behavior. That doesn't mean none of it is real, especially when there are people who have heard their own language in tongues and confirmed the veracity of the interpretation. I don't see Paul teaching a high level of suspicion against this. Starting with the presupposition that it is all fake will certainly lead to the wrong conclusion.
The issue here is that your worldview, theological presuppositions, etc. won't allow for speaking in tongues. If you heard 100 people just babble, that doesn't mean no one speaks in tongues. If you prayed for 100 sick people and they all died, does that mean God never heals anyone? If you look under 100 rocks and don't find a worm, does that mean worms never live under rocks?
There is also the issue that you might not be able to recognize a word. One of the (cessationist) posters on these forums generated a couple of Malay words while trying to type out mock speaking in tongues. People can easily perceive real words in other languages as gibberish, especially if there is repetition.
I have a degree in Linguistics. I studied six foreign languages from two language families in college if Anglo-Saxon (Old English) counts as a foreign language. I have learned an additional language fluently that I learned more organically mainly from speaking it, outside of the classroom. I have been to eight different countries and lived in two countries other than my home country that speak foreign languages. So, as far as people go, I have a reasonable amount of training and ability to identify that something is a foreign human language.
I certainly have heard plenty of speaking in tongues that fits this criteria. I do remember going to a meeting of about 5000 people from the same fellowship of churches who were asked to speak in tongues at the same time (in the meeting, with no interpretation) and it did sound like they were all babbling the same thing. I'm not saying some of this stuff can't be learned behavior. That doesn't mean none of it is real, especially when there are people who have heard their own language in tongues and confirmed the veracity of the interpretation. I don't see Paul teaching a high level of suspicion against this. Starting with the presupposition that it is all fake will certainly lead to the wrong conclusion.
That's not a reasonable conclusion. It is not reasonable for you to draw conclusions on the cases you haven't witnessed, and your conclusions on the cases you have may not be valid.
It sounds like I have heard a lot more speaking in tongues than you have and some of it does definitely sound like real languages.
Chinese and Vietnamese, now those are things that don't sound like real languages.
M
Making some random, unsupported comment isn't evidence for your belief. Not within a million miles. And the fact you think it is evidence shows a serious lack of critical thinking skills, quite frankly.
When the Bible makes you responsible to "give a reason" for your beliefs...the above bare assertion isn't even close to fulfilling your responsibility.
It's just bizarre you think this is "evidence"...to simply make unsupported, bare assertions.
Why wouldn't "presuppositions" be YOUR problem? Why are you the only one here with objectivity? You haven't presented any evidence. Besides that...there is no credible evidence to be seen anywhere. And if you go to YouTube and type in "tongues speaking", the videos that come up are a horror show. A disgrace. Where's the evidence for ongoing "tongues-speaking"? Nowhere.
In other words, "tongues" might be going on but we just don't realize it - LOL. Good grief.
That isn't providing proof and reasoning for your belief in modern-day tongues speaking. It's just saying tongues might exist...but we just don't realize it. Mama mia. Again, this shows a lack of understanding of what sound logic and reason actually is.
Oh brother. Here we go again. You have repeatedly tried to suggest you're 'very smart'...but apparently not smart enough to figure out this is an anonymous discussion board. For all we know, you work at a burger joint. You need to let your reasoning and proof stand on their own merits.
Good grief. That isn't "giving a reason" for your beliefs. What is it you don't get about your responsibility to provide credible reason and proof for your beliefs?
Another bare assertion which you think is an argument/evidence in your favor. Amazing.
Paul didn't have to. He regularly provided proof for the practice of tongues-speaking. As has already been explained to you, there was ZERO controversy regarding tongues-speaking in those early days...because proof was in abundance. It was coming from every corner.
When the Bible makes you responsible to "give a reason" for your beliefs...the above bare assertion isn't even close to fulfilling your responsibility.
It's just bizarre you think this is "evidence"...to simply make unsupported, bare assertions.
Why wouldn't "presuppositions" be YOUR problem? Why are you the only one here with objectivity? You haven't presented any evidence. Besides that...there is no credible evidence to be seen anywhere. And if you go to YouTube and type in "tongues speaking", the videos that come up are a horror show. A disgrace. Where's the evidence for ongoing "tongues-speaking"? Nowhere.
In other words, "tongues" might be going on but we just don't realize it - LOL. Good grief.
That isn't providing proof and reasoning for your belief in modern-day tongues speaking. It's just saying tongues might exist...but we just don't realize it. Mama mia. Again, this shows a lack of understanding of what sound logic and reason actually is.
Oh brother. Here we go again. You have repeatedly tried to suggest you're 'very smart'...but apparently not smart enough to figure out this is an anonymous discussion board. For all we know, you work at a burger joint. You need to let your reasoning and proof stand on their own merits.
Good grief. That isn't "giving a reason" for your beliefs. What is it you don't get about your responsibility to provide credible reason and proof for your beliefs?
Another bare assertion which you think is an argument/evidence in your favor. Amazing.
Paul didn't have to. He regularly provided proof for the practice of tongues-speaking. As has already been explained to you, there was ZERO controversy regarding tongues-speaking in those early days...because proof was in abundance. It was coming from every corner.
M
I have already previously debunked this illogical argument, a few posts ago. You dodged it. Go back and reread.
Additionally, you're wildly out of line for chiding me about this. It is your responsibility to bring reason and proof to the table if you want to convince people. But you fail to comply with that scriptural instruction and instead wag a lecturing finger at folks. Unbelievable.
It sounds like you're doing that silly, embarrassing "I'm smarter than you" thing again.
Again, other than to condescendingly wag your finger at us and instruct us to agree with you...when are you actually going to present the convincing reason and proof for your belief in ongoing tongues-speaking, which is biblically required of you? At what point do you plan to obey the Scriptures in this regard, pray tell?
Those totally sound like real languages. A real language sounds like a real language. Gibberish sounds like gibberish.
Why don't you go to YouTube and cherry-pick a couple dozen videos where you think genuine "tongues" is going on. Include in your selection, examples of people speaking earthly languages they had no knowledge of...and where there is some kind of reasonable corroboration...surrounding facts,
Additionally, you're wildly out of line for chiding me about this. It is your responsibility to bring reason and proof to the table if you want to convince people. But you fail to comply with that scriptural instruction and instead wag a lecturing finger at folks. Unbelievable.
It sounds like you're doing that silly, embarrassing "I'm smarter than you" thing again.
Again, other than to condescendingly wag your finger at us and instruct us to agree with you...when are you actually going to present the convincing reason and proof for your belief in ongoing tongues-speaking, which is biblically required of you? At what point do you plan to obey the Scriptures in this regard, pray tell?
Those totally sound like real languages. A real language sounds like a real language. Gibberish sounds like gibberish.
Why don't you go to YouTube and cherry-pick a couple dozen videos where you think genuine "tongues" is going on. Include in your selection, examples of people speaking earthly languages they had no knowledge of...and where there is some kind of reasonable corroboration...surrounding facts,
You are very being very loose with the Bible. Peter wrote to be ready also to give an answer for the hope that is in you. I believe I should be ready to explain the hope that is in me. I should be ready to give a defense of the Gospel, for the hope of the resurrection at the return of Christ. But the Bible doesn't say that I am required to go dig up emperical evidence for every Biblical teaching I hold to.
Given your own belief system about a responsibility to present evidence, I don't know why you would think you are off the hook for examining evidence. It is odd that you seem to think I am required to go dig up cases of speaking in tongues while you aren't. I don't believe I am required to do so unless the Lord were to direct me to.
If we both claim to be Christians and we both claim to believe in the same Bible, that it is inspired by God, then the burden of proof is on you. This is my evidence:
I Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Where is your evidence that this passage of the Bible is not true anymore?
You say the Bible teaches these things will cease. Show me where the Bible says that miracles or healing will cease. Show me one verse.
Given your own belief system about a responsibility to present evidence, I don't know why you would think you are off the hook for examining evidence. It is odd that you seem to think I am required to go dig up cases of speaking in tongues while you aren't. I don't believe I am required to do so unless the Lord were to direct me to.
If we both claim to be Christians and we both claim to believe in the same Bible, that it is inspired by God, then the burden of proof is on you. This is my evidence:
I Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Where is your evidence that this passage of the Bible is not true anymore?
You say the Bible teaches these things will cease. Show me where the Bible says that miracles or healing will cease. Show me one verse.
Good start now just clarify that what you teach aligns with the scripture you use to support your position.
Define the divers kinds of tongues. Does this mean that anything can be classified as divers tongues? Is this what the apostolic church practiced?
Healings and miracles are not promised to end but are the actions of the modern day church true to what was seen in the apostolic church?
I really do not know with absolute certainty but the Holy Spirit is not leading me to accept that what goes on in the modern Pentecostal or charismatic church has much biblical fidelity.
How are we to distinguish between genuine biblical tongues and tongues that are counterfeit and come not by the Holy Spirit but by the will of man?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Define the divers kinds of tongues. Does this mean that anything can be classified as divers tongues? Is this what the apostolic church practiced?
Healings and miracles are not promised to end but are the actions of the modern day church true to what was seen in the apostolic church?
I really do not know with absolute certainty but the Holy Spirit is not leading me to accept that what goes on in the modern Pentecostal or charismatic church has much biblical fidelity.
How are we to distinguish between genuine biblical tongues and tongues that are counterfeit and come not by the Holy Spirit but by the will of man?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
MattTooFor,
A page or two back, I noticed the link at the bottom of your post and saw that you'd put out that post on Michael W. Smith. I looked around your site a bit. Because whoever designed his album used some letters that resembled runic alphabet and his arms in one video was in a certain video and he was standing on a chair, which looked a bit like runic alphabet letters, you questioned whether he was involved with the occult. And runes were a valid alphabet, used for regular purposes. That's supposed to be logical reasoning?
A cheerful, noncontraversial, as far as I know, evangelical radio personality who offers brief words of encouragement on the radio, appears in a picture with either an arch-shaped bridge or a picture of one behind her. Because it resembles an eye, you are suspicious that this might be an occultic symbol, even though you have an eye or two right on your own head. Your ancestors had eyes. Other people have eyes. Animals have eyes. But an image in the background has eyes, and it's worth putting someone's name and face on a webpage so people can be suspicious of them because a bridge in the background has eyes.
I haven't offered complete evidence for others to examine for these things, but I have mention some of the types of evidence I know exists. I did point out some of the kinds of evidence that exist. An honest inquirer who respects privacy could PM me for the rest.
When the Bible makes you responsible to "give a reason" for your beliefs...the above bare assertion isn't even close to fulfilling your responsibility.
It's just bizarre you think this is "evidence"...to simply make unsupported, bare assertions.
I haven't spent a lot of time on YouTube looking up speaking in tongues videos. If one out of a thousand people who claimed to speak in tongues had the real gift, using your method, you'd reject all speaking in tongues. The issue here is speaking against what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that the Spirit gives divers tongues as He wills. When it comes to miracles and healing, there is no prooftext that you can try to interpret in such a to do away with them.
As far as objectivity goes, the problems show up in your posts and webpages. An arch bridge shaped vaguely like an eye is not evidence of occult activity. You accuse people of lying and being con artists without real evidence.
A sociology professor I had in college told a story about a Jewish man who was kept in a mental hospital in a city in the south the early part of the 20th century. He was put in the hospital because of some behavior they thought indicated mental problems. Before he ate, he would put on a little hat and ramble these nonsense words. It turns out, he was an Orthodox Jew and he was praying. Not only did the hospital staff not realize that he was praying a language, he was also committed for it.
The first two sentences were logical. If you haven't seen speaking in tongues, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Now that's common sense. If you go to 10 grocery stores and don't find saur kraut, that doesn't mean that no stores sell saur kraut. If you look under 10 or 100 rocks and don't find worms, that doesn't mean there are no worms under rocks.
The only reason we are discussing speaking in tongues is because it is in the Bible in the first place. Pentecostals wouldn't have believed in it or probably recognized it as a gift in the late 1800's and early 20th century if it weren't in the Bible.
Why is it that you like to assume other people are lying or up to no good? One theory is that if someone suspects other people of being liars all the time, it might indicate that he isn't that honest of a person, since he thinks other people are like himself. Do you have a problem with lying?
We are having a conversation. A few other people might be watching. You aren't going to convince me I work in a hamburger restaurant. I work at a university. I know where I work and what I do.
The attitude you have toward others and this tendancy to point fingers and accuse may be related to some of the problems you've been having recently. Someone PMed me after that question in a previous post. Anyway, this is something to pray about. You could ask the Lord why you have this urge to accuse people of lying? Why do you see some letters on an album that use a runic alphabet looking font and jump to the conclusion that just maybe the singer could have something to do with the occult? Why would you see a picture of an arch-shaped bridge that looks vaguely like an eye and suggest that it might refer to an occultic symbol? The Bible teaches that slander is a sin. Trying to stir up suspicion toward other brethren for no good reason isn't a good thing either. This sort of disposition can effect you negatively mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. That's really something to pray about. I'm not saying this to be mean. I really do want to see you free of this stuff.
I didn't tell people I had a degree in Linguistics and I studied languages so people would say, "Oh he's smart." Instead of jumping to that conclusion, you should have considered I was saying those things to back up the fact that I might have a reasonably good ear for recognizing foreign languages, since I've heard speaking in tongues that at least sounds like foreign languages to my ears.
Consider the golden rule. Are you treating others the way you want to be treated? I don't know what you do/have done for a living. If you told people you were an engineer, would you want people to say, "Oh, he thinks he's so smart. He's wants everyone to know he's an engineer." If you told someone you were a plumber, would you want him to say, "Hey, everyone, he's bragging about being a plumber. He probably just works as someone who carries buckets of sewage on his head to clean out the ditches in New Delhi"? Usually people who act like that get called unsavory names, like names of certain body parts. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I commented on your posts like that, randomly accusing you of dishonesty and unreasonably attributing bad motives for why you post things.
I'm curious. Do you interact with people like this in real life? Have you ever had conversations, since you were an adult, that ended in fist fights or someone calling you names... in real life, offline?
I'll respond to this in your own words, "Another bare assertion which you think is an argument/evidence in your favor. "
You do not know what context Paul spoke in tongues, and he may not have presented any more evidence than what you've seen. If you don't know the language, it may seem like gibberish. Like Paul points out, if someone speaks something you don't understand person speaking seems like a barbarian, who says 'bar bar bar.' (That's the theoretical origin of the word barbarian, that the Greeks thought foreigners sounded like they were saying 'bar bar bar.')
Pure speculation, at least if you are talking about the kind of evidence you are talking about. We only have one account of individuals speaking in the same tongue others present understood. Paul wrote of the one who speaks in tongues in I Corinthians that 'no man understandeth him.'
M
I'm being "loose"? We are called to defend our faith. We are to be ready and willing to provide reason and evidence for our Christian faith. You claim "tongues-speaking" and miracles are part of your faith. But NOW you've absolved yourself of providing supportive reasoning and evidence for your faith (as you define it)?? Wow. Now you've REALLY left the reservation.
I see no evidence for these things...and in fact, what I do see of these attempts to replicate tongues and/or miracles...is a disgrace. Yet...you demand I agree with you. That is literally unreasonable.
It's the dearth of evidence that I'm talking about. God expects us to use our common sense. And yes, I am aware you have a strange "post-modernist" approach to common sense...whereby you claim everyone has their own "version" of common sense, but...valid common sense does exist. And we'll answer for all of this on Judgement Day.
Actually, you "noticed" it long before that, but...does anyone understand what you're talking about here? Or what your actual point is? I don't understand and I wrote the blog - LOL! This appears to be just a huge and gratuitous 'ad hominem' snarking fest. You're embarrassing yourself.
Apparently, you're quite confused: On the one hand, you sternly chide me for asking for evidence and claim I'm playing it "loose" when I point out the Bible instructs you to provide evidence. THEN you turn around and in post after post after post, you argue for tongues and present what you describe as "evidence".
According to you, you shouldn't be doing that. I don't think you know whether you're coming or going.
So...if I haven't seen a Unicorn, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist? Bro, your critical thinking skills are kaput.
As I have said repeatedly, in the modern-day and with the advent of the Internet, iPhones and YouTube...I can come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no ongoing Jesus-style miracles nor any valid, biblical "tongues".
And your "lady lurching/staggering out of a wheelchair" YouTube which you provided...is further resounding proof:
If a veritable 'champion' of Pentecostal doctrines such as yourself is given access to the entire YouTube library and hundreds of millions of iPhones and video cams and the entire Internet with its billions of eyeballs spanning the globe...and yet the absolute best you can come up with is...this ANTI-"Jesus-style" miracle...isn't that the final nail in the coffin for Pentecostal doctrines?
Not to mention the irony, that according to your own pseudo-rules, you're "playing it fast and loose" in attempting to present evidence for miracles.
I just think you grew up with Pentecostal doctrines and it is your 'comfort zone' and you don't want to believe these doctrines are not true. So there's your aforementioned "lack of objectivity". It's just a tragedy that you're trying to drag people into this thing. In the last days when the "false prophets" emerge with their eye-popping "signs and wonders"...Charismatics and Pentecostals are going to drop like rocks, straight into apostasy and on to their doom.
Thus, folks here may notice an extra degree of unction in my comments on these topics. EVERYTHING is on the line.
I'm not sure what in the world you're not understanding here. No one needs to "know the context". What we know is that Paul and the other apostles (not to mention Jesus) regularly demonstrated miraculous manifestations...of miracles and tongues and "prophecy" etc. Not to mention, these miraculous manifestations were going on all throughout the Christian communities. None of this is happening today. Other than what you can see on YouTube...which is very disturbing stuff. A horrible disgrace.
I don't "assume" and I'm not just now talking about "lying". That's attempted misdirection on your part. I'm saying you apparently don't get the concept of an "anonymous discussion board". When you start rattling off all your alleged credentials, you're saying "I know more than you do, so you have to agree with me".
If you don't 'get' that this is an invalid argument, particularly in the context of an anonymous discussion board...then...you don't get it. What to do, what to do? I don't know how you fail to see this is self-aggrandizing. You have done this previously. You also have a pseudonym that is self-aggrandizing. I think there is a 'problem' there somewhere. You attempted to get very 'personal' with regard to a number of comments about my blog...so I'm sure you won't mind my frank assessment. You can't just walk up to someone and say "I'm smarter than you so you have to agree with me". It's pure silliness and it's insulting.
I see no evidence for these things...and in fact, what I do see of these attempts to replicate tongues and/or miracles...is a disgrace. Yet...you demand I agree with you. That is literally unreasonable.
It's the dearth of evidence that I'm talking about. God expects us to use our common sense. And yes, I am aware you have a strange "post-modernist" approach to common sense...whereby you claim everyone has their own "version" of common sense, but...valid common sense does exist. And we'll answer for all of this on Judgement Day.
Actually, you "noticed" it long before that, but...does anyone understand what you're talking about here? Or what your actual point is? I don't understand and I wrote the blog - LOL! This appears to be just a huge and gratuitous 'ad hominem' snarking fest. You're embarrassing yourself.
Apparently, you're quite confused: On the one hand, you sternly chide me for asking for evidence and claim I'm playing it "loose" when I point out the Bible instructs you to provide evidence. THEN you turn around and in post after post after post, you argue for tongues and present what you describe as "evidence".
According to you, you shouldn't be doing that. I don't think you know whether you're coming or going.
So...if I haven't seen a Unicorn, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist? Bro, your critical thinking skills are kaput.
As I have said repeatedly, in the modern-day and with the advent of the Internet, iPhones and YouTube...I can come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no ongoing Jesus-style miracles nor any valid, biblical "tongues".
And your "lady lurching/staggering out of a wheelchair" YouTube which you provided...is further resounding proof:
If a veritable 'champion' of Pentecostal doctrines such as yourself is given access to the entire YouTube library and hundreds of millions of iPhones and video cams and the entire Internet with its billions of eyeballs spanning the globe...and yet the absolute best you can come up with is...this ANTI-"Jesus-style" miracle...isn't that the final nail in the coffin for Pentecostal doctrines?
Not to mention the irony, that according to your own pseudo-rules, you're "playing it fast and loose" in attempting to present evidence for miracles.
I just think you grew up with Pentecostal doctrines and it is your 'comfort zone' and you don't want to believe these doctrines are not true. So there's your aforementioned "lack of objectivity". It's just a tragedy that you're trying to drag people into this thing. In the last days when the "false prophets" emerge with their eye-popping "signs and wonders"...Charismatics and Pentecostals are going to drop like rocks, straight into apostasy and on to their doom.
Thus, folks here may notice an extra degree of unction in my comments on these topics. EVERYTHING is on the line.
I'm not sure what in the world you're not understanding here. No one needs to "know the context". What we know is that Paul and the other apostles (not to mention Jesus) regularly demonstrated miraculous manifestations...of miracles and tongues and "prophecy" etc. Not to mention, these miraculous manifestations were going on all throughout the Christian communities. None of this is happening today. Other than what you can see on YouTube...which is very disturbing stuff. A horrible disgrace.
I don't "assume" and I'm not just now talking about "lying". That's attempted misdirection on your part. I'm saying you apparently don't get the concept of an "anonymous discussion board". When you start rattling off all your alleged credentials, you're saying "I know more than you do, so you have to agree with me".
If you don't 'get' that this is an invalid argument, particularly in the context of an anonymous discussion board...then...you don't get it. What to do, what to do? I don't know how you fail to see this is self-aggrandizing. You have done this previously. You also have a pseudonym that is self-aggrandizing. I think there is a 'problem' there somewhere. You attempted to get very 'personal' with regard to a number of comments about my blog...so I'm sure you won't mind my frank assessment. You can't just walk up to someone and say "I'm smarter than you so you have to agree with me". It's pure silliness and it's insulting.
M
So...here are a few more thoughts on the subject:
Looking at your statements above...we would have virtually the identical situation if we were debating the existence of Unicorns.
You're saying, in effect, I can't claim there are no Unicorns unless I personally examine every square inch of Planet Earth. That is a fallacy. And it is OBVIOUSLY a fallacy.
The fact of the matter is...there are various ways of coming to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no Unicorns...without examining every square inch.
Looking at your statements above...we would have virtually the identical situation if we were debating the existence of Unicorns.
You're saying, in effect, I can't claim there are no Unicorns unless I personally examine every square inch of Planet Earth. That is a fallacy. And it is OBVIOUSLY a fallacy.
The fact of the matter is...there are various ways of coming to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no Unicorns...without examining every square inch.
Definitely you are interpreting scripture loosely. Do you bother to look up scriptures before you try to use them as weapons? Peter says to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you. In the New Testament, we see we are to have hope for the resurrection and for the return of Christ. We hope for that which we see not.
You should act consistently with your own interpretation. Show me the evidence, from scripture, that miracles will cease.
I am telling you that you should believe the Bible. You also should not argue against Biblical spiritual gifts because you haven't seen them.
I'm not post-modern in my thinking. 'Common sense' is often used by people who have no real argument to make based on evidence or reason. That's not post-modernism.
I believe I'd seen your Michael Smith witchhunt blog, probably from a link from a post on this forum, maybe a a year or two back. I did not click on your link until after I posted about how your reasoning process reminded me of conspiracy theorists. I didn't have any empiracle evidence for your being a conspiracy theorist when I pointed that out since I hadn't noticed the link or checked out your blog.
I pointed out things you posted, and I had a reason for it. There is a pattern in the way you behave toward others.
You are confused. I say I'm not obligated to provide you the type of evidence you want, not that I can't choose to.
Your not having seen a unicorn doesn't make them not exist. Don't blame that triple negative question of yours on me.
I don't think unicorns exist. If someone claims to have seen one, I'm not going to go on a diatribe about how they don't exist. A horse with a horn on it's head could exist somewhere. I don't think they do. Whatever animal the KJV refers to as a 'unicorn' exists.
But this topic isn't unicorns. It is about a spiritual gift the Bible teaches the Spirit gives to individuals in the body of Christ.
Since other people have recognized languages 'in tongues' then your reasoning is clearly flawed. Reality is not limited to your observations. Your reasoning sounds rather post-modern, except that you don't allow for other people's perceptions, I suppose, to be their own reality.
A documented non-instantaneous healing performed through an individual proves what, exactly, in your mind?
If I were debating someone who believed in unicorns, I wouldn't argue that since I hadn't seen any, there weren't any. I'd be the one committing the logical fallacy. Scientists in England did not believe in the duckbilled platypus when they heard of it. They hadn't seen it either.
I thinking of saying , "Unicorns aren't in the Bible, but speaking in tongues and miracles are." Actually, the KJV does mention unicorns, and I believe that animal exists, but I forget which one it is. And there are some one-horned beasts of different sorts out there, as far as the literal meaning of the word 'unicorn' is concerned.
The Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gifts of healing, wording of miracles, tongues, and interpretation of tongues.
Show me evidence that those scriptures are no longer true. Or do you believe the Bible is not true?
I thinking of saying , "Unicorns aren't in the Bible, but speaking in tongues and miracles are." Actually, the KJV does mention unicorns, and I believe that animal exists, but I forget which one it is. And there are some one-horned beasts of different sorts out there, as far as the literal meaning of the word 'unicorn' is concerned.
The Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gifts of healing, wording of miracles, tongues, and interpretation of tongues.
Show me evidence that those scriptures are no longer true. Or do you believe the Bible is not true?
M
I wouldn't argue that either. But I certainly know how I would argue that Unicorns and tongues-speaking do not exist. It's not just about what I personally and directly see. There are a billion eyeballs all across the planet. The aforementioned iPhones and YouTubes.
So...how would you argue Unicorns don't exist? According to you, you have no way of doing that. You would have to ridiculously concede "oh well, maybe Unicorns exist. I would argue I have no way of concluding otherwise".
We're not talking about what's on the pages of Scripture just now. We're talking about what is or isn't actually going on out there in the world. But now that you've absolved yourself of defending your version of "Christian faith"...not sure what's left to discuss.
You are, of course, HUGELY contradicting yourself dozens of times...when you continually try to offer what you think is evidence (which is nothing more than anecdotal chit-chat)...then claim you're not obligated to offer evidence.
And all I am saying is...show me where these alleged individuals HAVE "recognized tongues". Simply show me an example.
And you're right - reality is NOT limited to my personal observations. It's limited to a world of billions of eyeballs and hundreds of millions of iPhones, video cams, and YouTubes.
The same goes for people who believe the moon landings were a hoax...or believe the earth is flat: There are ways of reaching far, far, far beyond the reach of my own eyeballs, contrary to your ridiculous assertion that one must observe all of this, personally and directly.
I do not have to have personally traveled to the Moon to conclude we have actually made successful trips to the Moon...nor must I have personally traveled into outer space and only then personally observe and confirm the spherical shape of the earth.
Your assertion that I need to have observed all 800 trillion pages of the Internet, all 800 million YouTubes, and have attended all 75 jillion church services all across the 2000 years of the Christian era, in order to properly conclude there is no longer any tongues-speaking...is an utter absurdity.
Again...those critical thinking skills are failing you.
Once again, you're contradicting yourself. Breaking your own rules. You seem very conflicted. Alternately apologizing...then seething with animosity, disdain, and a tsunami of personal attacks. I don't get it...other than that you sense your arguments are failing? I have no idea. Inexplicably, you slap me with this "nasty attitude" charge when I simply describe you as a kind of "champion" of Pentecostal doctrines. What in the world is so bad about that?? Goood grief. The skin is thin. Wow.
So...how would you argue Unicorns don't exist? According to you, you have no way of doing that. You would have to ridiculously concede "oh well, maybe Unicorns exist. I would argue I have no way of concluding otherwise".
We're not talking about what's on the pages of Scripture just now. We're talking about what is or isn't actually going on out there in the world. But now that you've absolved yourself of defending your version of "Christian faith"...not sure what's left to discuss.
You are, of course, HUGELY contradicting yourself dozens of times...when you continually try to offer what you think is evidence (which is nothing more than anecdotal chit-chat)...then claim you're not obligated to offer evidence.
And all I am saying is...show me where these alleged individuals HAVE "recognized tongues". Simply show me an example.
And you're right - reality is NOT limited to my personal observations. It's limited to a world of billions of eyeballs and hundreds of millions of iPhones, video cams, and YouTubes.
The same goes for people who believe the moon landings were a hoax...or believe the earth is flat: There are ways of reaching far, far, far beyond the reach of my own eyeballs, contrary to your ridiculous assertion that one must observe all of this, personally and directly.
I do not have to have personally traveled to the Moon to conclude we have actually made successful trips to the Moon...nor must I have personally traveled into outer space and only then personally observe and confirm the spherical shape of the earth.
Your assertion that I need to have observed all 800 trillion pages of the Internet, all 800 million YouTubes, and have attended all 75 jillion church services all across the 2000 years of the Christian era, in order to properly conclude there is no longer any tongues-speaking...is an utter absurdity.
Again...those critical thinking skills are failing you.
Once again, you're contradicting yourself. Breaking your own rules. You seem very conflicted. Alternately apologizing...then seething with animosity, disdain, and a tsunami of personal attacks. I don't get it...other than that you sense your arguments are failing? I have no idea. Inexplicably, you slap me with this "nasty attitude" charge when I simply describe you as a kind of "champion" of Pentecostal doctrines. What in the world is so bad about that?? Goood grief. The skin is thin. Wow.
M
By the way, I don't mean to say ALL Pentecostals and Charismatics are headed for doom. But Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, DOES forewarn that the majority of those who populate the "believing" Christian fellowships...will fall from the faith and split the Gates of Hell wide open.
Not that they "lose" their salvation...but that God apparently never viewed them as genuine believers to begin with.
Not that they "lose" their salvation...but that God apparently never viewed them as genuine believers to begin with.
