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I wavered between “in some ways yes in some ways no,” and “yes, entirely.”
The reason is because when I first got saved, my SIL said to go to the Presbyterian Church, not the Pentecostal, and we did! I heard a lot of Bible being preached, and the people were so kind. Then my husband had to move for jobs, and someone invited me to a non-denominational charismatic church. This church had had some real glory days, hundreds of young people and hippies being saved. Then a split.
Well, from day 1, I found the preaching shallow. It seemed like the church was more interested in putting down “old dead churches” like the Presbyterian one I had been in, and whooping it up by singing the same shallow choruses over and over. And then I met the Rapture, losing your salvation, which my husband was pretty well sold on. Till a few months ago, when I confronted him to show me the Rapture in the Bible, and of course, he couldn’t.
I know I searched in vain for a rapture, evidence I could lose my salvation and many other things in the Bible, and could not find them. And as my Hebrew professor said, if something is an important doctrine, it is going to be found all over the Bible. Like the cross, was his example.
I had long since realized my experience was not asking Jesus to come into my heart, but God sovereignly saving me. I knew that from day 1. I even remember a few years before I was saved, saying sinner’s prayer while watching a tv show, and not changing a single bit. Because I wasn’t saved. God had not saved me, and neither had decisional regeneration.
I think reading the Bible faithfully is the key to being changed to correct doctrine, and to living God’s way. And that means each one of us reading it for ourselves. No priests or televangelists to mediate the Bible for us, and block our relationship with God. And prayer, and a good church community.
So, when I was a young Christian, I certainly couldn’t articulate the things I believed. I can’t imagine why we didn’t find another Presbyterian Church when we moved, rather than looking for surface excitement, in the forum of fake tongues and even worse so-called prophesies. But, again, maybe God wanted me to dig for myself. My husband got so discouraged at various times, he completely stopped reading the Bible. It took a pastor at a church in Edmonton, before we left, who spent a long time explaining how to read the Bible, including videos in the evenings, and a yearly reading program. Then my husband picked up the Bible and started reading again.
So, now I have changed entirely. But, I think the elements of basic doctrine were always there. So, although I changed to an EFC and then Baptist churches as we moved, it helped me understand what good doctrine really was. So, I seemed to change radically from what I was hearing in Pentecostal/Arminian churches. But, I don’t think I believed any of it. So, coming back to being Reformed, was an entire shift in what I was hearing, but not much of a switch from what I really believed. And I am glad I recently became full fledged Reformed. I know that I am so much closer to the Bible, to God, and certainly to having good doctrine.
Interestingly enough, my seminary was not Reformed. What they taught us was to read the Bible, pray, and see what God is saying. They emphasized if we were going to be leading a congregation, we better know what we believed. When we did a little quiz, after we studied Calvinism as to the 5 points, our class went from 1 point, to 2 1/2 points, to 5. (And every other number!) That’s the whole gamut. And no one got in trouble for being Arminian or Reformed, or Amillennial or pre-trib rapture, but we did have to prove it from the Bible, not from what people had written, and we were just blindly following. Certainly, seminary was a huge change for me, in that I learned regardless of the wrong things my husband had been taught, it was ok for me to believe what God had shown me in the Bible.
And now, by worst luck, our new pastor is open theism. My husband was rebuking me for saying something about “God showed me.” Because our open theist pastor said people don’t personally hear from God. Well, I guess open theism gives you that, and that search committee made some terrible mistakes when they picked him, mostly that he was an ordained pastor in our conference, and so they never pinned him down to what he believed now, not 15 years earlier when he was ordained. I’m content to wait it out, as we have the most wonderful congregation, and my husband feels at home, literally for the first time ever. And if you want someone who has changed a lot, in a short time, perhaps get my husband to do this poll! (Nope, not a CC member!)
The reason is because when I first got saved, my SIL said to go to the Presbyterian Church, not the Pentecostal, and we did! I heard a lot of Bible being preached, and the people were so kind. Then my husband had to move for jobs, and someone invited me to a non-denominational charismatic church. This church had had some real glory days, hundreds of young people and hippies being saved. Then a split.
Well, from day 1, I found the preaching shallow. It seemed like the church was more interested in putting down “old dead churches” like the Presbyterian one I had been in, and whooping it up by singing the same shallow choruses over and over. And then I met the Rapture, losing your salvation, which my husband was pretty well sold on. Till a few months ago, when I confronted him to show me the Rapture in the Bible, and of course, he couldn’t.
I know I searched in vain for a rapture, evidence I could lose my salvation and many other things in the Bible, and could not find them. And as my Hebrew professor said, if something is an important doctrine, it is going to be found all over the Bible. Like the cross, was his example.
I had long since realized my experience was not asking Jesus to come into my heart, but God sovereignly saving me. I knew that from day 1. I even remember a few years before I was saved, saying sinner’s prayer while watching a tv show, and not changing a single bit. Because I wasn’t saved. God had not saved me, and neither had decisional regeneration.
I think reading the Bible faithfully is the key to being changed to correct doctrine, and to living God’s way. And that means each one of us reading it for ourselves. No priests or televangelists to mediate the Bible for us, and block our relationship with God. And prayer, and a good church community.
So, when I was a young Christian, I certainly couldn’t articulate the things I believed. I can’t imagine why we didn’t find another Presbyterian Church when we moved, rather than looking for surface excitement, in the forum of fake tongues and even worse so-called prophesies. But, again, maybe God wanted me to dig for myself. My husband got so discouraged at various times, he completely stopped reading the Bible. It took a pastor at a church in Edmonton, before we left, who spent a long time explaining how to read the Bible, including videos in the evenings, and a yearly reading program. Then my husband picked up the Bible and started reading again.
So, now I have changed entirely. But, I think the elements of basic doctrine were always there. So, although I changed to an EFC and then Baptist churches as we moved, it helped me understand what good doctrine really was. So, I seemed to change radically from what I was hearing in Pentecostal/Arminian churches. But, I don’t think I believed any of it. So, coming back to being Reformed, was an entire shift in what I was hearing, but not much of a switch from what I really believed. And I am glad I recently became full fledged Reformed. I know that I am so much closer to the Bible, to God, and certainly to having good doctrine.
Interestingly enough, my seminary was not Reformed. What they taught us was to read the Bible, pray, and see what God is saying. They emphasized if we were going to be leading a congregation, we better know what we believed. When we did a little quiz, after we studied Calvinism as to the 5 points, our class went from 1 point, to 2 1/2 points, to 5. (And every other number!) That’s the whole gamut. And no one got in trouble for being Arminian or Reformed, or Amillennial or pre-trib rapture, but we did have to prove it from the Bible, not from what people had written, and we were just blindly following. Certainly, seminary was a huge change for me, in that I learned regardless of the wrong things my husband had been taught, it was ok for me to believe what God had shown me in the Bible.
And now, by worst luck, our new pastor is open theism. My husband was rebuking me for saying something about “God showed me.” Because our open theist pastor said people don’t personally hear from God. Well, I guess open theism gives you that, and that search committee made some terrible mistakes when they picked him, mostly that he was an ordained pastor in our conference, and so they never pinned him down to what he believed now, not 15 years earlier when he was ordained. I’m content to wait it out, as we have the most wonderful congregation, and my husband feels at home, literally for the first time ever. And if you want someone who has changed a lot, in a short time, perhaps get my husband to do this poll! (Nope, not a CC member!)
Your explanation would be plausible if we did not have other Scriptures to confirm what Paul said in 1 Corinthians. Women are not to preach, teach, or usurp authority within the local churches, and the reason given is the deception of Eve.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim 2)
And as you well know, Scripture was not simply written for those Corinthians but for us as well. And that is why -- regardless of all their other false doctrines -- the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have forbidden women from their priesthoods since early times. They were following the apostolic command.
So if you believe as does EG, then you too have rejected Bible truth in favor of feministic ideas. Please note the word SILENCE is repeated twice so that there is no misunderstanding whatsoever.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim 2)
And as you well know, Scripture was not simply written for those Corinthians but for us as well. And that is why -- regardless of all their other false doctrines -- the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have forbidden women from their priesthoods since early times. They were following the apostolic command.
So if you believe as does EG, then you too have rejected Bible truth in favor of feministic ideas. Please note the word SILENCE is repeated twice so that there is no misunderstanding whatsoever.
J
On that note I imagine visiting this site nearly "everyday" and reaching out to multiple other Christian websites about salvation was something I just wanted to do every week instead of play more video games and indulge in junk food is what I would tell that guy.(seriously when I got the Holy spirit first I was exhausted for months spiritually)
J
Come on,don't you think I've "heard this before" my family church is "Baptist" they say those tired old lines too but it's not quite "true" It's just what they "prefer",the matter of a woman being "in silence" and "learning in silence" and "not usurping authority" and a man "not suffering a woman to teach" is all talking about...
If a man can teach or preach then he is to do so but if he can't then a woman can do so.
Since you brought up paul notice he also said that "women" were the "back bone" of churches for they"encouraged" the churches greatly and notice how many "women" were even "saluted" by paul,there is no question that any one of them could have teached or preached for some men probably just "wouldn't or couldn't".
If a man can teach or preach then he is to do so but if he can't then a woman can do so.
Since you brought up paul notice he also said that "women" were the "back bone" of churches for they"encouraged" the churches greatly and notice how many "women" were even "saluted" by paul,there is no question that any one of them could have teached or preached for some men probably just "wouldn't or couldn't".
J
To clarify further Paul's words concerning women were matters of "order" God is the head of men,men are the head of women,God gave man knowledge first hand,woman got knowledge second hand,man is to be over his household,man is to preach and teach.
But yet the thing is that at anytime that the "man" whether in church or in a house hold "doesn't do his job" then a woman can "do the job in place of him" and while not doing wrong by God.
But yet the thing is that at anytime that the "man" whether in church or in a house hold "doesn't do his job" then a woman can "do the job in place of him" and while not doing wrong by God.
J
And if anyone wants some "good examples" of "women being able to "intervene" for husbands or for men in general when there is no man to be found for the job they take over....
Read of Abigail saving Nabal from being killed by David,going against her husband's wishes yet doing right for him and "was blessed" for this and only her "husband" suffered "consequence at all" for she still served him "faithfully" though he did "wrong",or read of the "woman prophetess" who God used to "Save Israel" for his own good reasons.
Read of Abigail saving Nabal from being killed by David,going against her husband's wishes yet doing right for him and "was blessed" for this and only her "husband" suffered "consequence at all" for she still served him "faithfully" though he did "wrong",or read of the "woman prophetess" who God used to "Save Israel" for his own good reasons.
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I see at least two voted not at all that kind of concerns me. I mean a good student is one who has the adaptability and the openness to receive new instruction throwing away what they thought they knew to learn and to grow. Otherwise even if the truth of a matter is shown to them they will be to blind to even see it
Yes, my beliefs have matured is a better way of putting it. The more I live in righteousness the more the Holy Spirit enlightens my spirit and then I let God enlighten my mind as well. This is normal as a Christian. It is relational.
Humility resulting in pliability thru training in righteousness has a positive and essential place in the lives of God's people. This holds true in both the Old and New Testaments. God's people had to learn how to be obedient to His will, to become more and more like their Lord. This was accomplished through "the discipline of the Lord" (Deut. 11:2 NIV). God deals with His people very much the same today, for "the Lord disciplines those he loves" (Hebrews 12:6a). Scripture teaches us "God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness" (Hebrews 12:10b NIV). As we can see from this passage, the discipline of the Lord produces holiness. Verse eleven goes on to say "..it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
Discipline refers to the process by which one learns a way of life. A disciple was like an apprentice who was learning a trade or craft from a master. Such learning required a relationship between the master who knew the way of life (discipline) and a learner (a disciple). Within this relationship, the teacher led the learner through a process (the discipline) until the learner could imitate or live like the master. Jesus taught this very concept in (Luke 6:40), "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."
When Jesus called the twelve, it was to establish a Master-learner relation with them. As they lived and worked with Him, Jesus disciplined them unto a way of life that was pleasing to God. Such discipline involved praise and criticism, affirmation and rebuke. Today, Jesus does the same, through His church. He seeks people willing to learn; people who are pliable and moldable unto His likeness.
Humility resulting in pliability thru training in righteousness has a positive and essential place in the lives of God's people. This holds true in both the Old and New Testaments. God's people had to learn how to be obedient to His will, to become more and more like their Lord. This was accomplished through "the discipline of the Lord" (Deut. 11:2 NIV). God deals with His people very much the same today, for "the Lord disciplines those he loves" (Hebrews 12:6a). Scripture teaches us "God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness" (Hebrews 12:10b NIV). As we can see from this passage, the discipline of the Lord produces holiness. Verse eleven goes on to say "..it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
Discipline refers to the process by which one learns a way of life. A disciple was like an apprentice who was learning a trade or craft from a master. Such learning required a relationship between the master who knew the way of life (discipline) and a learner (a disciple). Within this relationship, the teacher led the learner through a process (the discipline) until the learner could imitate or live like the master. Jesus taught this very concept in (Luke 6:40), "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."
When Jesus called the twelve, it was to establish a Master-learner relation with them. As they lived and worked with Him, Jesus disciplined them unto a way of life that was pleasing to God. Such discipline involved praise and criticism, affirmation and rebuke. Today, Jesus does the same, through His church. He seeks people willing to learn; people who are pliable and moldable unto His likeness.
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It would seem reasonable to expect as we grow in Christ our biblical beliefs would grow and mature. As we gain knowledge and seek understanding receiving wisdom we will change.
Christ does not change nor does the word of God. A we become less worldly and more Christ-like we are changed. The important change is positive and not negative.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Christ does not change nor does the word of God. A we become less worldly and more Christ-like we are changed. The important change is positive and not negative.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
