Healing in the Atonement?

[joaniemarie]

Hey Stones.,, I began reading your thread again early this evening. While reading I noticed it was going ok, your posts answering and asking., the other posters also answering and asking... no disrespect., just sharing and clarifying.... an agree to disagree neutrality of opinion about faith and Bible verses and blessings and shared trials and tribulations. Some common ground was met and it was going pretty well for the most part as all good discussions go.

The convo went back and forth in a pretty smooth progression.... reasoning together... whys and wherefores etc... I wanted to type some of my ideas to add to the thread too. I saw an opportunity to also clarify where someone said I believe- if you are not healed you don't have enough faith... I didn't ever say that either. And so I was headed towards joining in but then I got to the BANG ZAP BOOMs post Angela brought in and the misunderstandings came back with a vengeance.

Then the accusations started again and the bitterness and anger and name calling began all over again. Where the balm had been started for healing so discussion was a possibility......it was suddenly and harshly ripped away by accusations and angry words posted.

It was good to see all those posts BEFORE hand where a meeting of the minds of Christians met and Jesus was the focal point despite the vast differences in opinions about healing in the atonement. I look forward to discussion like that here on CC. And thank you Stones for always trying to maintain that Christ like spirit here.

 

[Angela53510]

Stones, you told me on another thread that "perhaps I didn't pray hard enough." But Know1 directly told me not just that I didn't have enough faith for healing, but that I had no faith at all. So, those harsh words said "You don't have faith, therefore you are not saved."

If, faith for healing is in the atonement, and I am not healed, does that not mean that I am not saved? Know1 directly said I had no faith, because I was not healed. And so did all my Word Faith friends, who I have long since forgiven. One is still a close friend, because after he fell for this lie, (of healing in the atonement), he got sick, almost died, prayed for healing, finally ended up in hospital where he was operated on, and he is still healthy, 15 years later. He still believes in healing, but he now understands it is not for everyone, not all the time. Perhaps my speaking to him about Word Faith, and where and why it was wrong, also helped? He has been healed of many things, an incredible person! Yet, he learned that it has to be God's will, healing is not part of the atonement.

However, I don't care what anyone exegetes. I heard from the Lord what His will is for me.


And the new covenant is exactly that. His will,of inheritance. He places us in heavenly realms above this natural world, when we are baptized into His body. Scripture states this is our position. And we are to pray, on earth as it is in heaven.

So, if someone tells you something that is contrary to Scripture, even an angel from heaven, then it is not God's will for your life! Because God never changes his written Word, and anything that does not fall into line with Scripture is another gospel. You have been misled, you have been lied to. You refuse to read what the truth of the Word of God says, because you want to be healed so badly. Now, I hope I am wrong, and God is gradually healing. My husband went through that, many years ago! It was 5 steps, each revealed in their time, none of them against Scripture. And he is well today, although he has been in the ICU a few times, dying, before that time. Praise God for a healing journey!

But, exegeting of the Word correctly is vital. Does it not strike you as strange, that every single denomination, background, no matter what their other beliefs, on here, all agree Word Faith is not just wrong, but wrong because it is a bunch of out of context verses, hammered together by certain men, who have crept into the charismatic world, and are preaching another gospel.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel—7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!" Gal.1:6-8

If you do the exegesis, Word Faith is wrong. It is another gospel. That is why it is so important we do look at the Hebrew, the Greek, and then various translations. Plus, the actual message of what the atonement was for!

It is NOT about everyone being healed, because Jesus died on the cross. The gospel is about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, to those he has called, and believe.

Now, if you want to continue to believe God for healing, because he is moving in your life, that is wonderful. But it is NOT because of the Word Faith lie this is happening. It is because God's will, is that this is happening for you.

But when people tell me I have not prayed enough, or just plainly said that I don't have faith because I do not believe this twisted lie, so not only I am not healed, because of "my unbelief" (even though I love and serve Jesus with all my heart!) I am not saved!

That is why this doctrine is absolute and utter heresy, and I will continue posting against it. In fact, I am hoping to write a full book about it, and hopefully do some studies of how many faithful Christians have actually died when they refused medical treatment, because they believed for a healing that never came. And that includes my friend, who was deceived to death.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Anyone who says that someone who isn't healed due to their faith, or lack thereof, in my book, has no clue what they're talking about... JMO

 

[stonesoffire]

Well what about the catching up? According to your belief we should all be 100% fit, healthy, and trim right now (if we only had the faith), so there will be no need for the transformation and perfection of our bodies (as well as the glorification) at the Rapture.

Did I say any of your words?

 

[joaniemarie]

And Angela., after you write that book of yours., you will still see and hear millions of Christians who are not in agreement with you and have not gone through the experiences you have gone through and have gone through their own experiences of faith.... because they read their Bibles too and have a relationship with Jesus too and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit too. That is a truth you cannot deny no matter how many books or posts you write.

That is not heresy and they are not heretics.... it is the fact of life for us humans that none of us on this side of heaven have it all down pat 100% right. That we each must ALWAYS submit to the truth regardless of our personal experiences in life.

But in the mean time... we must learn to GET ALONG no matter what our differences in the body of Christ.

 

[tourist]

Anyone who says that someone who isn't healed due to their faith, or lack thereof, in my book, has no clue what they're talking about... JMO

Those that say that type of thing are spiritually naïve.

 

[stonesoffire]

Hey Stones.,, I began reading your thread again early this evening. While reading I noticed it was going ok, your posts answering and asking., the other posters also answering and asking... no disrespect., just sharing and clarifying.... an agree to disagree neutrality of opinion about faith and Bible verses and blessings and shared trials and tribulations. Some common ground was met and it was going pretty well for the most part as all good discussions go.

The convo went back and forth in a pretty smooth progression.... reasoning together... whys and wherefores etc... I wanted to type some of my ideas to add to the thread too. I saw an opportunity to also clarify where someone said I believe- if you are not healed you don't have enough faith... I didn't ever say that either. And so I was headed towards joining in but then I got to the BANG ZAP BOOMs post Angela brought in and the misunderstandings came back with a vengeance.

Then the accusations started again and the bitterness and anger and name calling began all over again. Where the balm had been started for healing so discussion was a possibility......it was suddenly and harshly ripped away by accusations and angry words posted.

It was good to see all those posts BEFORE hand where a meeting of the minds of Christians met and Jesus was the focal point despite the vast differences in opinions about healing in the atonement. I look forward to discussion like that here on CC. And thank you Stones for always trying to maintain that Christ like spirit here.

Hi Joanie

I can see this is a personal issue for Angela. Who by the way, ive put on ignore because I felt the conversation would go no where. Her hurt is too deep.

I made a comment that I do need to explain though.

I said I don't care what anyone exegetes because I've heard from the Lord as to His will.

Scripture states that we live by every word that comes from His mouth. This is the result of being one with Him. And Word here does not mean logos in this scripture. Its rhema.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

G4487

ῥῆμα
rhēma
hray'-mah
From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word.
Total KJV occurrences: 70

need to go, am cooking dinner. Be blessed all ye people of the Lord.

much love Joanie..

 

[preacher4truth]

Hi Joanie

I can see this is a personal issue for Angela. Who by the way, ive put on ignore

Saying it is personal with Angela, then saying you put her on ignore is nothing short of a personal insult toward her made public to get in your jab. It's also callow.

I'd say it sounds way more personal to you due to what you've done and that you made it public, but that would be wrong, and I won't stoop there.

Angela53510 has thoroughly rebutted your errors, you're not ready or mature enough in the Word to receive it. Sorry, not meaning to sound derogatory, just an honest observation.

It's also sad that you don't care what anyone exegetes. What a sad thing to say, and so contrary to God's word and will, Ephesians 4:11 &c.

First, it's not true what you claim, because anyone who "exegetes" to support your error is applauded (not that they exegete in context). What you mean to say is you can't handle it when the Word is properly exegeted and refutes your teachings, which happens quite often.

 

[stonesoffire]

You do mean spirited very well Preacher.

 

[joaniemarie]

Thank you Stones... sweet as always. I received this video in my email from a Christian friend this morning and just finished listening to it AND appreciated it very much. I've actually never listened to a message by this pastor Hagin before but I like what he is saying here. I don't know if you are in agreement with him or not so I'll make this disclaimer as I post it here on your thread.

Listen to the vid and tell me what you think. Bless you and your husband there in Florida. OH and WOW and AMEN it must be beautiful in Florida!!!! Can't wait for Spring to come here in NY. Yes., my sister and I have been getting re acquainted after not seeing one another in 23yrs. Jesus is the One who reconciles and restores. One day when I come to Fla. in my RV we shall meet face to face Stones.




Hey Joanie,


Here is a great video that speaks about healing. What we hear of Jesus ( what is it that those back then were are hearing about Him?) will determine what we receive from Him. Did those people hear "Come to Jesus - He might or might not heal you. No, of course not!


The fact that physical healing is in the gospel is obvious when we read about the man at Lystria who had faith to be healed while listening to the gospel that Paul was preaching. Where did this man get faith from? Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of Christ. Rom. 10:17


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14_4kYtkjqw
[TABLE="width: 536"]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]55 Kenneth Hagin - Hear and be healed (The Healing Anointing)
www.youtube.com
Hear and be healed (The Healing Anointing) These and more video's can be found at Jeh's Video Bible School http://jhlavac.mnsi.net/word/bible/vb...
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[wolfwint]

Well, lets be rather blunt here. Faith without works is dead. I am not saying God won't heal you, my father has told me the story of a promiscuous woman who would get STDs, come back to church every Sunday and be healed, and do it again and again. Commit sin, get sick, go to church, and get healed, then commit sin, get sick, go to church, and get healed.
God is merciful.

However, lets think about these things. Someone is praying for God to cure their obesity but are piling down cheeseburgers and milkshakes topped with candied cherries for breakfast. Is the conclusion it is their fault they are obese? Uhm... yeah! Even when it comes down to certain diseases we can control the symptoms through diet and even reverse their effects on the body. So, we may seek healing and pray for it but are we taking any personal action in addressing what plagues us?

Listen, I have psoriasis. I desire God to heal me of this. I in the past have believed that He would and do you want to know what He spoke to me? "Believe." As insulting a response as that could be to any of us, its the blunt reality. Do we truly believe? Some say they pray God heals them "but its probably not going to happen until I get my resurrected body." Does that sound like faith to you!? Its doubt, disbelief, and sadly not faith. Its hopelessness hidden as a form of hope that is afar off.

God healed me of an autoimmune disease. Doctors deemed it incurable. I cried out to God as I was bed ridden, when my body would fold in pain. It is now gone, praise God. He was merciful. He was faithful. I asked that He would heal me and He sent a person to pray for me and after that, I was healed.

Is it the fault of the sick person? If we are being absolutely honest and not expressing ourselves with some fake form of sensitivity and humility, yes! God gave us these temples to take care of, and when its starts malfunctioning more often than not it started with your eating utensils. This isn't true for everyone, of course. And we shouldn't try to find blame but rather seek healing. Such healing is found through different means that God has provided.

For example, my psoriasis started reversing as I ate a lectin-free diet. Apparently doctors have found that many autoimmune diseases start from the gut and so we need to heal our stomach. Our microbiome, I believe they call it. We need to eat properly and take away the offending foods that are messing with our systems.

Anyhow, and back to the point, personal responsibility shouldn't be disregarded. Faith without works is dead. What good was Peter's faith had he not stepped out on the water? Where do we proclaim faith, but do not move? So no, we should not silence ourselves due to political correctness and contradict God's word. If we are sick, let us then have faith towards God. If we remain sick, do not lose hope because He is the source for our healing. How can we be angry with God when He is the one that delivers us? We must seek Him, believe, and then receive unto the praise and glory of God.

Thank you Ben for your personal reply. My problem is not that I doubt that our father can heal. My problem is that I cant find the scripture that promiss every believer to have a healthy life on earth. As this Healing in the Atonement proclaimer claims. The fact that this is not taught in the NT from no single writer and the fact that the most believers get sick during their lifetime, without getting healed shows me that this teaching is wrong and leads people to believe something God has never promissed for our life on earth. But what I find in the words of our Lord as well from Paul and Peter is, that we as follower of Jesus will be persecutet and will suffer because we belongs to Him. This I find is contradict to the modern charismatic teachings about health and wealth.

 

[preacher4truth]

You do mean spirited very well Preacher.

Thank you for that because it reinforces my post that you cannot receive truth nor rebuttal, when exposed and given admonition you resort to yet another insult. My prayer is for your growth and acceptance of truth according to Paul's prayer for all saints in Ephesians 1:15-23.

Blessings to you.

 

[stonesoffire]

Thank you for that because it reinforces my post that you cannot receive truth nor rebuttal, when exposed and given admonition you resort to yet another insult. My prayer is for your growth and acceptance of truth according to Paul's prayer for all saints in Ephesians 1:15-23.

Blessings to you.

Truthfully, I don't see mean spirited in the scriptures as something to be proud of. And it's your signature. Plus you have posted out of this spirit many times. Not just to me but others.

Merciful blessings back to you.

 

[stonesoffire]

Plus, what I said was based on the scripture I posted. Do you have a different understanding?

 

[Laish]

And Angela., after you write that book of yours., you will still see and hear millions of Christians who are not in agreement with you and have not gone through the experiences you have gone through and have gone through their own experiences of faith.... because they read their Bibles too and have a relationship with Jesus too and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit too. That is a truth you cannot deny no matter how many books or posts you write.

That is not heresy and they are not heretics.... it is the fact of life for us humans that none of us on this side of heaven have it all down pat 100% right. That we each must ALWAYS submit to the truth regardless of our personal experiences in life.

But in the mean time... we must learn to GET ALONG no matter what our differences in the body of Christ.

Actualy Angela will know how much she got right by who doesn’t approve and why .
Aproval is easy to get . Just look at our world. Put up a touchy-feely post on Facebook and watch all the likes pour in .
Whats hard is telling someone you love or like that somthing they cherish is wrong. That takes courage. It’s far easier to enjoy the accolades than suffer the slings and arrows.
Blessings
Bill

 

[joaniemarie]

Actualy Angela will know how much she got right by who doesn’t approve and why .
Aproval is easy to get . Just look at our world. Put up a touchy-feely post on Facebook and watch all the likes pour in .
Whats hard is telling someone you love or like that somthing they cherish is wrong. That takes courage. It’s far easier to enjoy the accolades than suffer the slings and arrows.
Blessings
Bill[/QUOTE


The point being made is this.... it's not who is right or wrong. It's how we walk with others as Christians. There are many talented Christian people who can and do write books and that is a great thing... But if we don't agree with certain findings it's OK we don't need to dissemble them for not agreeing with us do we? No we don't.

We read their books (or not) But we don't dissemble them piece by piece. And as a matter of fact... that should not be our motivation for posting or for writing books.

 

[stonesoffire]

Stones, you told me on another thread that "perhaps I didn't pray hard enough." But Know1 directly told me not just that I didn't have enough faith for healing, but that I had no faith at all. So, those harsh words said "You don't have faith, therefore you are not saved."

If, faith for healing is in the atonement, and I am not healed, does that not mean that I am not saved? Know1 directly said I had no faith, because I was not healed. And so did all my Word Faith friends, who I have long since forgiven. One is still a close friend, because after he fell for this lie, (of healing in the atonement), he got sick, almost died, prayed for healing, finally ended up in hospital where he was operated on, and he is still healthy, 15 years later. He still believes in healing, but he now understands it is not for everyone, not all the time. Perhaps my speaking to him about Word Faith, and where and why it was wrong, also helped? He has been healed of many things, an incredible person! Yet, he learned that it has to be God's will, healing is not part of the atonement.




So, if someone tells you something that is contrary to Scripture, even an angel from heaven, then it is not God's will for your life! Because God never changes his written Word, and anything that does not fall into line with Scripture is another gospel. You have been misled, you have been lied to. You refuse to read what the truth of the Word of God says, because you want to be healed so badly. Now, I hope I am wrong, and God is gradually healing. My husband went through that, many years ago! It was 5 steps, each revealed in their time, none of them against Scripture. And he is well today, although he has been in the ICU a few times, dying, before that time. Praise God for a healing journey!

But, exegeting of the Word correctly is vital. Does it not strike you as strange, that every single denomination, background, no matter what their other beliefs, on here, all agree Word Faith is not just wrong, but wrong because it is a bunch of out of context verses, hammered together by certain men, who have crept into the charismatic world, and are preaching another gospel.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel—7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!" Gal.1:6-8

If you do the exegesis, Word Faith is wrong. It is another gospel. That is why it is so important we do look at the Hebrew, the Greek, and then various translations. Plus, the actual message of what the atonement was for!

It is NOT about everyone being healed, because Jesus died on the cross. The gospel is about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, to those he has called, and believe.

Now, if you want to continue to believe God for healing, because he is moving in your life, that is wonderful. But it is NOT because of the Word Faith lie this is happening. It is because God's will, is that this is happening for you.

But when people tell me I have not prayed enough, or just plainly said that I don't have faith because I do not believe this twisted lie, so not only I am not healed, because of "my unbelief" (even though I love and serve Jesus with all my heart!) I am not saved!

That is why this doctrine is absolute and utter heresy, and I will continue posting against it. In fact, I am hoping to write a full book about it, and hopefully do some studies of how many faithful Christians have actually died when they refused medical treatment, because they believed for a healing that never came. And that includes my friend, who was deceived to death.

Again, am posting what I believe. The scriptures state the promises are yes, and amen. I don't accept a no, andcwould rebuke a devilish thought if I had this. And I haven't.

My understanding of word of faith is to confess the word in order to create faith. I am not in agreement with this. I speak what I believe and what the Lord has given me in prophecies, and by His Voice. I know His Voice, and its not in my mind, but in
my middle. It's a learning process.

Angela, please show me where I said maybe you didn't pray hard enough. That doesn't sound like my words. But, then I'm not perfect. If I did, I will ask forgiveness again.

I am not minimising anything you have gone through. People can mean well, but speak incorrectly causing hurt. And as I said, forgiveness is a gift that I treasure or am sure I would be most bitter. But, you bring it up almost with every post. That's too long to be suffering from past words.

Pity however helps no one.

 

[stonesoffire]

Thank you Stones... sweet as always. I received this video in my email from a Christian friend this morning and just finished listening to it AND appreciated it very much. I've actually never listened to a message by this pastor Hagin before but I like what he is saying here. I don't know if you are in agreement with him or not so I'll make this disclaimer as I post it here on your thread.

Listen to the vid and tell me what you think. Bless you and your husband there in Florida. OH and WOW and AMEN it must be beautiful in Florida!!!! Can't wait for Spring to come here in NY. Yes., my sister and I have been getting re acquainted after not seeing one another in 23yrs. Jesus is the One who reconciles and restores. One day when I come to Fla. in my RV we shall meet face to face Stones.




Hey Joanie,


Here is a great video that speaks about healing. What we hear of Jesus ( what is it that those back then were are hearing about Him?) will determine what we receive from Him. Did those people hear "Come to Jesus - He might or might not heal you. No, of course not!


The fact that physical healing is in the gospel is obvious when we read about the man at Lystria who had faith to be healed while listening to the gospel that Paul was preaching. Where did this man get faith from? Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of Christ. Rom. 10:17


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14_4kYtkjqw
[TABLE="width: 536"]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]55 Kenneth Hagin - Hear and be healed (The Healing Anointing)
www.youtube.com
Hear and be healed (The Healing Anointing) These and more video's can be found at Jeh's Video Bible School http://jhlavac.mnsi.net/word/bible/vb...[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

will listen tomorrow Joanie. Thank you.

 

[Angela53510]

Truthfully, I don't see mean spirited in the scriptures as something to be proud of. And it's your signature. Plus you have posted out of this spirit many times. Not just to me but others.

Merciful blessings back to you.

So putting me on ignore and publicly announcing it wasn’t mean spirited? Sheesh!

I’m not hurt at all anymore by Word Faith. I am burdened to death, that a lie is being propagated in this forum, and elsewhere, that is not substantiated by the Living Word of God - ie The Bible. Not only are people being hurt and damaged emotionally, but they are literally DYING because of this heresy. This twisting of the most basic thing we believe in as Christians - the Atonement!

Ooops! Forgot you had me on ignore. Hmm, I guess I will go spend some time in my Bible, instead of worrying about people who think they are so angelic, and yet tell me I have not prayed hard enough, and oh yes, say publicly for all the forum to see, “YOU are on ignore.”

Not nice!

 

[stonesoffire]

So putting me on ignore and publicly announcing it wasn’t mean spirited? Sheesh!

I’m not hurt at all anymore by Word Faith. I am burdened to death, that a lie is being propagated in this forum, and elsewhere, that is not substantiated by the Living Word of God - ie The Bible. Not only are people being hurt and damaged emotionally, but they are literally DYING because of this heresy. This twisting of the most basic thing we believe in as Christians - the Atonement!

Ooops! Forgot you had me on ignore. Hmm, I guess I will go spend some time in my Bible, instead of worrying about people who think they are so angelic, and yet tell me I have not prayed hard enough, and oh yes, say publicly for all the forum to see, “YOU are on ignore.”

Not nice!

In looking at posts when not logged in, you see all posts. So the function isn't perfect. I took you off.

Did you find that post? Because I just went through past weeks of my postings and didn't see it anywhere.