Lots of shades of gray...for me anyway. The arrogance chimes in when someone proclaims they have it all nailed down. So they write a book and get rich. Smile. The bible bookstores hold tons of opinion books that claim infallibility, and none of them are in total agreement. Just saying. It's the ego test of which most Christians get an 'F' on! Boy am I a rambling now!
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The term heresy is from Greek αἵρεσις originally meant "choice" or "thing chosen," but it came to mean the "party or school of a man's choice" and also referred to that process whereby a young person would examine various philosophies to determine how to live. The word "heresy" is usually used within a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic context, and implies slightly different meanings in each. The founder or leader of a heretical movement is called a heresiarch, while individuals who espouse heresy or commit heresy are known as heretics. Heresiology is the study of heresy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy#Etymology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy#Etymology
Good day yet,
Regarding the rich man and Lazarus, I view this as an actual account witnessed by Jesus pre-incarnate. The problem with the claim of it being an allegory, is that there is nothing at all in the context to lead the reader to that conclusion. Not even a hint! There are those who also claim that it is a parable, but it has none of the characteristics to bare that out. The facts are that, real names, people and the literal location of Hades is being used, father Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, the mention of the rich man's five brothers and the location of Hades.
In my opinion, neither "Sheol" nor "Hades" should ever be translated as "Grave." There are other words in both the OT and NT that are used to describe the grave, tomb and sepulcher:
OT: qeber - a grave, sepulcher (used 68 times in the OT)
NT: mnémeion - a tomb, sepulcher, monument (used 40 times in the NT)
I did a thorough study on the use of both Sheol and Hades and these two words should never be used to refer to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, for to do so, in my opinion, is a false translation. Sheol and Hades are synonymous, i.e. the same place referred to both the OT and the NT. The following is the definition of both:
Characteristics of Sheol/Hades:
· Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,
· Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,
· Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17
· Has Chambers - Prov.7:27
· Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18
· A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24
· Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates.
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
It wouldn't matter because those who end up in Sheol/Hades are all going to suffer in everlasting fire regardless of when they died. The fact is that, the event of the rich man and Lazarus describe the rich man in torment in flame. This is what the scripture says. To force this event as being an allegory would be to change God's intended meaning.
Regarding the rich man and Lazarus, I view this as an actual account witnessed by Jesus pre-incarnate. The problem with the claim of it being an allegory, is that there is nothing at all in the context to lead the reader to that conclusion. Not even a hint! There are those who also claim that it is a parable, but it has none of the characteristics to bare that out. The facts are that, real names, people and the literal location of Hades is being used, father Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, the mention of the rich man's five brothers and the location of Hades.
In my opinion, neither "Sheol" nor "Hades" should ever be translated as "Grave." There are other words in both the OT and NT that are used to describe the grave, tomb and sepulcher:
OT: qeber - a grave, sepulcher (used 68 times in the OT)
NT: mnémeion - a tomb, sepulcher, monument (used 40 times in the NT)
I did a thorough study on the use of both Sheol and Hades and these two words should never be used to refer to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, for to do so, in my opinion, is a false translation. Sheol and Hades are synonymous, i.e. the same place referred to both the OT and the NT. The following is the definition of both:
Characteristics of Sheol/Hades:
· Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,
· Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,
· Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17
· Has Chambers - Prov.7:27
· Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18
· A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24
· Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates.
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
It wouldn't matter because those who end up in Sheol/Hades are all going to suffer in everlasting fire regardless of when they died. The fact is that, the event of the rich man and Lazarus describe the rich man in torment in flame. This is what the scripture says. To force this event as being an allegory would be to change God's intended meaning.
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Hi Brian here , i know it doesn't matter i thought i would ask i all ways wondered if our love ones who passed on to Heaven because my mother is there and if God lets them see what we are doing . And as far as hell go's , what is Sheol/Hades i though hell was all ways there , so after the rapture is that when Jesus creates hells fire ??????
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
As this shows it seems like you can look at one another but not cross to the other side
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
As this shows it seems like you can look at one another but not cross to the other side
This is a parable and it is teaching that Gentiles will enter the Kingdom before those Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.
If you think Christ intended this as teaching concerning heaven and hell, let's think about it a little...
Luk 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
Luk 16:21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
So, if this is really teaching about the after life, we must conclude that those in heaven can see those in hell.
Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Now if this is truly teaching about heaven and hell, then those in heaven can talk with those in hell and those in hell can talk to those in heaven.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
No we must agree that those in heaven CANNOT help those in hell.
Luk 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
If this is truly teaching about heaven and hell, let's draw a few conclusions...
1) Saved moms in heaven can see their lost children in hell.
2) Saved moms in heaven can hear their screams and shrieks of agony.
3) Saved moms in heaven CAN NOT DO ANYTHING to comfort their tormented children.
You call that heaven?
In reality, this is parable and the best explanation I have ever seen for this is here...
The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man
If you think Christ intended this as teaching concerning heaven and hell, let's think about it a little...
Luk 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
Luk 16:21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
So, if this is really teaching about the after life, we must conclude that those in heaven can see those in hell.
Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Now if this is truly teaching about heaven and hell, then those in heaven can talk with those in hell and those in hell can talk to those in heaven.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
No we must agree that those in heaven CANNOT help those in hell.
Luk 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
If this is truly teaching about heaven and hell, let's draw a few conclusions...
1) Saved moms in heaven can see their lost children in hell.
2) Saved moms in heaven can hear their screams and shrieks of agony.
3) Saved moms in heaven CAN NOT DO ANYTHING to comfort their tormented children.
You call that heaven?
In reality, this is parable and the best explanation I have ever seen for this is here...
The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man
Hello John832,
Forgive me, but this is a false assumption. By stating the above, you are assuming that Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven (paradise) and the rich man is in Hades under the earth. But, the scripture makes clear that Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were in the same location, which is in sheol/Hades under the earth. According to the scripture, the rich man was in that place of torment in flame and Lazarus was in a place of comfort (paradise). These two areas were separated by a great chasm. Therefore, the rich man was not speaking to Abraham in heaven, but was speaking to him directly from across that chasm. According scripture, believer's do not go down to that place of comfort, but at death their spirits depart from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. In opposition, when the unrighteous die their spirits depart the body and go into the same place where the rich man went, Hades, which is where all of the unrighteous dead go.
Forgive me, but this is a false assumption. By stating the above, you are assuming that Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven (paradise) and the rich man is in Hades under the earth. But, the scripture makes clear that Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were in the same location, which is in sheol/Hades under the earth. According to the scripture, the rich man was in that place of torment in flame and Lazarus was in a place of comfort (paradise). These two areas were separated by a great chasm. Therefore, the rich man was not speaking to Abraham in heaven, but was speaking to him directly from across that chasm. According scripture, believer's do not go down to that place of comfort, but at death their spirits depart from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. In opposition, when the unrighteous die their spirits depart the body and go into the same place where the rich man went, Hades, which is where all of the unrighteous dead go.
First of all, I am not assuming anything...
2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul's plain teaching here is that paradise and the third heaven are the same.
Secondly, hades is a pit or grave...
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Word for hades here is...
G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, Hades or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
A soul is not immortal, it is simply anything that breathes for a living.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The NKJV has this...
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Souls can die...
Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
This whole idea of eternal torment comes from the first recorded lie...
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul's plain teaching here is that paradise and the third heaven are the same.
Secondly, hades is a pit or grave...
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Word for hades here is...
G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, Hades or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
A soul is not immortal, it is simply anything that breathes for a living.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The NKJV has this...
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Souls can die...
Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
This whole idea of eternal torment comes from the first recorded lie...
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
Nope, the dead are not conscious...
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
There are many more scriptures that show that at death a person becomes unconscious and that all are awaiting a resurrection from the dead...
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This occurs at the return of Christ and the resurrection...
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Happens at the resurrection.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
There are many more scriptures that show that at death a person becomes unconscious and that all are awaiting a resurrection from the dead...
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This occurs at the return of Christ and the resurrection...
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Happens at the resurrection.
As I said, it is an assumption on your part and that because the word "paradise" is not unique to heaven. Obviously, the place where Abraham and Lazarus was also a place of paradise.
Sorry, but the scripture shows that both Lazarus and the rich man died and their spirits where somewhere else. The soul is immortal. All that happens when the body dies is that the soul/spirit is released. Even the unrighteous are resurrected and exist forever. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, the unrighteous dead will be resurrected to stand before God at the great white throne judgment and then cast into the final place, the lake of fire.
It is only the body that is referred to as sleeping. The soul/spirit is conscious and aware after leaving the body. This is the whole purpose of the rich man and Lazarus, which is to demonstrate what happens at the time of dead. This is the same understanding of what Jesus meant when he said, "today you will be with me in paradise." Jesus and that man went down to the same place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were.
