The writer begins with a set of conditions that establish a prior ontological state. "It is impossible" does not modify "have fallen away," it modifies "to renew them again to repentance." This is not presented as an impossible scenario. He presents it as a settled fact that is connected to a change of mind and later contrasts the current state of those to whom he is writing with those who had "fallen away." He is speaking of historical cases. These are those who "have once been...." He is saying very simply that it is impossible to renew again to repentance those how have fallen away. Everything between these two statements shows the reality of a spiritual state of being. These "had been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come..." This was their prior state. It is that ontological state that has changed because they had "fallen away" from these things. Consequently, it is impossible to bring them back to this state because that which had once motivated them to repentance to become partakes in all of these spiritual blessings no longer appeals to them. The extent of their now fallen condition is demonstrated in the fact that they "again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." There is no way the grammar of these verses can be manipulated to make "It is impossible" refer to the scenario itself. It only modifies "to renew them again to repentance." Do not allow your soteriology to drive your reading of the text. Let the text influence your soteriology. When we begin with what we already believe to be true we will invariably force that belief onto our reading of the text. This is not being honest with the text.
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Hebrews 6:1-6 I see the writer to the Hebrews was certain of the necessity of progress in the Christian life. It would be exhausting; I have been in a teaching environment where thru my youth teaching days we would have new students show up and I constantly had to restate the old lessons over and over again to establish its base of understanding before moving to the 10 minutes left of the class to move onto new material. To think I would have to do that each and every time I spoke would drive me crazy, so I get it here, what he is alluding to.. This is not in reference to the new people in the class but to the old ones having to do the same thing.
The writer of the Hebrews says that his people must be going on to what he calls "Teleiotes." The King James version translates this word: 'Perfection'. But "toeless' the adjective, and other kindred words have a technical meaning. Pythagoras divided his students into "hoi Manthanontes", --the learners, and hoi, and teleioi --the mature.
Philo separated his students into three different classes: hoi archomenoi, those just beginning. Hoi prokoptontes; those making progress. And, hoi teleliomenoi; those beginning to reach maturity. Now, teleiotes does not imply complete knowledge but a certain maturity in the Christian faith.
The Hebrew writer then shows us two things in this maturity:
1]. He means something to do with the mind ; he means that as a man get's older he should more and more have thought things out for himself. He should, for instance, be able to say better who he believes Jesus to be. He should have a deeper grasp, not only on the facts, but also the significances of the Christian faith.
2]. He means something to do with life. As a man grows older there should be more and more of the reflection of Christ upon him. The depth of Christ Himself should show itself evident in his understanding , be it limited even, of the God-man called Christ .All the time he should be ridding himself of old faults, and leaning forward into new achievements in his virtues. Daily a new serenity and a new confidence, or nobility should be breaking upon life.
There can be no standing still in the Christian life, no hoarding the river of life in the bank- corner of the flow Christ has in the nature of His current in this river of life. "He who ceases to be better, ceases to be good."
This is what the early Church regarded as basic Christianity 101.
The writer of the Hebrews says that his people must be going on to what he calls "Teleiotes." The King James version translates this word: 'Perfection'. But "toeless' the adjective, and other kindred words have a technical meaning. Pythagoras divided his students into "hoi Manthanontes", --the learners, and hoi, and teleioi --the mature.
Philo separated his students into three different classes: hoi archomenoi, those just beginning. Hoi prokoptontes; those making progress. And, hoi teleliomenoi; those beginning to reach maturity. Now, teleiotes does not imply complete knowledge but a certain maturity in the Christian faith.
The Hebrew writer then shows us two things in this maturity:
1]. He means something to do with the mind ; he means that as a man get's older he should more and more have thought things out for himself. He should, for instance, be able to say better who he believes Jesus to be. He should have a deeper grasp, not only on the facts, but also the significances of the Christian faith.
2]. He means something to do with life. As a man grows older there should be more and more of the reflection of Christ upon him. The depth of Christ Himself should show itself evident in his understanding , be it limited even, of the God-man called Christ .All the time he should be ridding himself of old faults, and leaning forward into new achievements in his virtues. Daily a new serenity and a new confidence, or nobility should be breaking upon life.
There can be no standing still in the Christian life, no hoarding the river of life in the bank- corner of the flow Christ has in the nature of His current in this river of life. "He who ceases to be better, ceases to be good."
This is what the early Church regarded as basic Christianity 101.
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K
You are the one who is changing things to make two different kinds of Apostles when the bible does no such thing, as the scriptures clearly identify these others with the main 11 + Mathias and Paul. As Acts mentions Barnabas along with Paul showing the same credentials for both, not two separate kinds.
Then Hebrews 6:1-6 that is being discussed is not an impossible hypothetical situation as verse 6 says it is the person who refuses to repent of their ways and return to the Lord doing themselves harm. Plus Paul repeats this teaching in his epistles in Acts 20:28-31, Romans 2:6-10, Romans 11:19-22, 2 Timothy 4:2-8, and Colossians 1:22-23.
"It is impossible" does not modify "have fallen away,"
Quite true ! Ἀδύνατον γὰρ "It is impossible" is an adjective, which modifies the pronoun those, which is the subject of :φωτισθέντας (who have been (were) enlightened v.4), and γευσαμένουσ (have tasted v.5), and γεωηθέντασ (were made v.4), and γευσμένους (have tasted v.5), and lastly παραπεσόντας (they shall fall away v.6).
So, it is impossible for them to be enlightened, taste of the heavenly gift, be made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and taste the good word of God? If we insist this is what "it is impossible" modifies then this is the result. This cannot be because the writer says their partaking of these things was a point of fact. It is this state from which they had fallen away. "It is impossible" modifies "to renew them again to repentance." They could not be brought back. Simply diagram the text and you will see.
If you will simply diagram this text you will see your conclusions on these two posts are incorrect. It is a simple matter of grammatical structure. This text is never going to say what you want it to say Marc. I am not trying to defend a particular soteriology. I am trying to defend the grammatical structure of the text.
Yes, absolutely. τοὺς is the subject. This is very clear in the NAS
NAS - "For in the case of those who (γὰρ τοὺς - subject) have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, (all serve as subject modifiers) it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
ASV - "For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
ESV - "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."
NLT - "For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame."
KJV - "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
HCS - For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.
DBT - "For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of [the] Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and [the] works of power of [the] age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves [as they do] the Son of God, and making a show of [him].
Here is another example
"[It is] impossible to renew again to repentance those who have fallen away who have once been enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and having became partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers also of the coming age, they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
NAS - "For in the case of those who (γὰρ τοὺς - subject) have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, (all serve as subject modifiers) it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
ASV - "For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
ESV - "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."
NLT - "For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame."
KJV - "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
HCS - For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.
DBT - "For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of [the] Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and [the] works of power of [the] age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves [as they do] the Son of God, and making a show of [him].
Here is another example
"[It is] impossible to renew again to repentance those who have fallen away who have once been enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and having became partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers also of the coming age, they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
The verses simply serve as a warning to Christians to move on to spiritual maturity. Note that the context of Hebrews 6:4-6 is set for us in verses 1-3, where the author exhorts his readers to "go on to maturity."
Maturity was an important issue for the Jews of the first century who had converted to Christ and became Christians. The Jews living in and around the Palestine area were under the authority of the high priest. The high priest had sufficient influence to cause a Jew to lose his job, have his kids kicked out of synagogue school, and much more. Many scholars believe that when some Jews became Christians in the first century, the high priest put some heavy-duty pressure (persecution) on them.
This caused some of the Jewish Christians to become gun-shy in their Christian lives. They were not as open about their Christian faith. Perhaps they thought that if they kept quiet about their faith and withdrew from external involvement in Christian affairs (like church attendance) the high priest would lighten up on them.
The author of the book of Hebrews saw this as a retreat from spiritual maturity in Christ. He thus encouraged them to move on to maturity in Christ.
The motivation of Hebrews 6:1-6, then, is not "shape up or you will lose your salvation." Instead, it is, "Because you're already Christians and have made a commitment to Him, let's move on to maturity, even though the circumstances are difficult." This was a message those first-century Jewish converts needed to hear. - Ron Rhodes, "The Big Book Of Bible Answers"
Maturity was an important issue for the Jews of the first century who had converted to Christ and became Christians. The Jews living in and around the Palestine area were under the authority of the high priest. The high priest had sufficient influence to cause a Jew to lose his job, have his kids kicked out of synagogue school, and much more. Many scholars believe that when some Jews became Christians in the first century, the high priest put some heavy-duty pressure (persecution) on them.
This caused some of the Jewish Christians to become gun-shy in their Christian lives. They were not as open about their Christian faith. Perhaps they thought that if they kept quiet about their faith and withdrew from external involvement in Christian affairs (like church attendance) the high priest would lighten up on them.
The author of the book of Hebrews saw this as a retreat from spiritual maturity in Christ. He thus encouraged them to move on to maturity in Christ.
The motivation of Hebrews 6:1-6, then, is not "shape up or you will lose your salvation." Instead, it is, "Because you're already Christians and have made a commitment to Him, let's move on to maturity, even though the circumstances are difficult." This was a message those first-century Jewish converts needed to hear. - Ron Rhodes, "The Big Book Of Bible Answers"
G
I agree with you. But if you are trying to make ' to renew them again to repentance' as if they lost their salvation. This does not support that hypothesis.
'to renew them again to repentance' is in reference to the list back in verses 1 and 2......Specifically ' not laying again a foundation of repentance', they were using dead works to establish their foundation of repentance again.
One word that is overlooked in these passages is ἀνασταυρόω.....SINCE they are crucifying.
These believers are in reversionism and they are doing dead works of repentance. While they are in dead works and reversionism, it is impossible for them to change their minds about the list made in verses 1 and 2.
It is going to be impossible for these believers to.......
Go onto maturity
A change of mind about dead works(Good/evil) 5:14
A Change of mind about baptisms(washings)
A change of mind of resurrections
A change of mind of eternal judgement.
While these believers are in reversionism(their dead works) it is going to impossible for them to change their minds about the list that the author brought up in verses 1 and 2.
It is not talking about restoring them to salvation.
'to renew them again to repentance' is in reference to the list back in verses 1 and 2......Specifically ' not laying again a foundation of repentance', they were using dead works to establish their foundation of repentance again.
One word that is overlooked in these passages is ἀνασταυρόω.....SINCE they are crucifying.
These believers are in reversionism and they are doing dead works of repentance. While they are in dead works and reversionism, it is impossible for them to change their minds about the list made in verses 1 and 2.
It is going to be impossible for these believers to.......
Go onto maturity
A change of mind about dead works(Good/evil) 5:14
A Change of mind about baptisms(washings)
A change of mind of resurrections
A change of mind of eternal judgement.
While these believers are in reversionism(their dead works) it is going to impossible for them to change their minds about the list that the author brought up in verses 1 and 2.
It is not talking about restoring them to salvation.
The fate of those is illustrated in the following parabolic illustration, "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." This is not the fate of the saved, it the fate of those who had fallen away and cannot be brought back.
G
We cannot make "fallen away" or "gone astray" as losing a gift that was freely given to us......in the passive voice.
The author is laying out our proleptic position in Christ. We have a position and condition. And in our condition we use positive volition to grow experientially while we are alive. We can mature in Christ or we can stay a babe.......our choice.
So what is the going astray or "fallen away?" The author is pointing out that these believers have fallen away from their growth or experience in Christ. Not that they have fallen away from the gift of salvation.
"for those who"~~~Reversionists. Going back to legalism in this case. the direct object.
"once received illumination"~~PASSIVE voice and culminative Aorist..........Position in Christ.The righteousness of God.
"having begun to taste (for themselves) the gracious gift of heaven"......Middle voice and ingressive aorist. Fellowship with Christ requires positive volition on the believers part..............Experiential state or position.
"having been made partners with the Holy Spirit".......PASSIVE voice and culminative aorist. ........Position in Christ.The righteousness of God.
"having begun to taste(for themselves) the good word of God".....Middle voice,ingressive aorist....The believer must have positive volition towards doctrine. Experiential state or position.
"having begun to taste(for themselves) the miraculous powers of the age to come"....middle voice,ingressive aorist.....Experiential state or position.
"but afterwards going astray" Active voice, constative aorist........The believer rejects Gods plan......Experiential state or position.
And as long as the believer stays in this state of reversionism, it is impossible to restore them to a change of mind in their experiential state or position.
They are safe in their Position in Christ, but they are LOSERS in the experiential state. And they are CLOSE to being cursed in their experiential state. But in their position in Christ they are safe.
1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
The author is laying out our proleptic position in Christ. We have a position and condition. And in our condition we use positive volition to grow experientially while we are alive. We can mature in Christ or we can stay a babe.......our choice.
So what is the going astray or "fallen away?" The author is pointing out that these believers have fallen away from their growth or experience in Christ. Not that they have fallen away from the gift of salvation.
"for those who"~~~Reversionists. Going back to legalism in this case. the direct object.
"once received illumination"~~PASSIVE voice and culminative Aorist..........Position in Christ.The righteousness of God.
"having begun to taste (for themselves) the gracious gift of heaven"......Middle voice and ingressive aorist. Fellowship with Christ requires positive volition on the believers part..............Experiential state or position.
"having been made partners with the Holy Spirit".......PASSIVE voice and culminative aorist. ........Position in Christ.The righteousness of God.
"having begun to taste(for themselves) the good word of God".....Middle voice,ingressive aorist....The believer must have positive volition towards doctrine. Experiential state or position.
"having begun to taste(for themselves) the miraculous powers of the age to come"....middle voice,ingressive aorist.....Experiential state or position.
"but afterwards going astray" Active voice, constative aorist........The believer rejects Gods plan......Experiential state or position.
And as long as the believer stays in this state of reversionism, it is impossible to restore them to a change of mind in their experiential state or position.
They are safe in their Position in Christ, but they are LOSERS in the experiential state. And they are CLOSE to being cursed in their experiential state. But in their position in Christ they are safe.
1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
To suggest one cannot loose that which is freely given is very poor logic not to mention completely unscriptural. Salvation is and always has been based on the biblical principle of reciprocity. It is not without condition. This in no way violates the nature of something freely given. Those of our text had abandoned that which had been freely given and their end is to be burned.
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G
Stick with me for a bit, please.
We have qualifications in The Aorist tense in the post in question.
Both passive voice quotes in my post have culminative aorist tense's used. If the author was saying that the believer can "fall away" from this area the culminative aorist would not have been used.
Received illumination~~Culminative aorist.
Made partners with the Holy Spirit~~Culminative Aorist.
Culminative aorist~~Emphasis is on the conclusion or the results of the action......effective or standing aorist. The believers position in Christ.
The ingressive aorist puts emphasis on the beginning of the action. The believers experiential sanctification in this life.
And the aorist tense qualifications, follow perfectly with the context of the passage.........maturity or growth experientially.
Can you please show how these cannot be the culminative aorist? Or what I am missing?
We have qualifications in The Aorist tense in the post in question.
Both passive voice quotes in my post have culminative aorist tense's used. If the author was saying that the believer can "fall away" from this area the culminative aorist would not have been used.
Received illumination~~Culminative aorist.
Made partners with the Holy Spirit~~Culminative Aorist.
Culminative aorist~~Emphasis is on the conclusion or the results of the action......effective or standing aorist. The believers position in Christ.
The ingressive aorist puts emphasis on the beginning of the action. The believers experiential sanctification in this life.
And the aorist tense qualifications, follow perfectly with the context of the passage.........maturity or growth experientially.
Can you please show how these cannot be the culminative aorist? Or what I am missing?