Hebrews 6:1-6

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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Stick with me for a bit, please.

We have qualifications in The Aorist tense in the post in question.

Both passive voice quotes in my post have culminative aorist tense's used. If the author was saying that the believer can "fall away" from this area the culminative aorist would not have been used.

Received illumination~~Culminative aorist.

Made partners with the Holy Spirit~~Culminative Aorist.

Culminative aorist~~Emphasis is on the conclusion or the results of the action......effective or standing aorist. The believers position in Christ.

The ingressive aorist puts emphasis on the beginning of the action. The believers experiential sanctification in this life.

And the aorist tense qualifications, follow perfectly with the context of the passage.........maturity or growth experientially.

Can you please show how these cannot be the culminative aorist? Or what I am missing?
A culminative aorist is nothing more than aorist in its most basic form. It simply describes a completed action. This is what an aorist does. There are four forms of the past tense - perfect, imperfect, pluperfect, and aorist, all of which have subcategories just as all of the other verb forms and more often than not they are highly subject to interpretation even among scholars. But, you are quite correct. All of these verbs speak of a past completed passive action represented in the English by "having once been." The point you are overlooking here is that the Hebrew writer is stressing the fact that these are the completed actions from which these had fallen away. The culminative aorist does not prevent this condition from being overturned or changed. The action was passively completed at some point in the past but the action had been actively abandoned by the individuals themselves.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
A culminative aorist is nothing more than aorist in its most basic form. It simply describes a completed action. This is what an aorist does. There are four forms of the past tense - perfect, imperfect, pluperfect, and aorist, all of which have subcategories just as all of the other verb forms and more often than not they are highly subject to interpretation even among scholars. But, you are quite correct. All of these verbs speak of a past completed passive action represented in the English by "having once been." The point you are overlooking here is that the Hebrew writer is stressing the fact that these are the completed actions from which these had fallen away. The culminative aorist does not prevent this condition from being overturned or changed. The action was passively completed at some point in the past but the action had been actively abandoned by the individuals themselves.
I think what is being overlooked here is the ingressive Aorist. There is a contrast set up.

Something that is concluded and something that "has begun."

They are not falling away from something that is looked at from a completed action, they are falling away from the things that "had begun" in their Christian walk. The experiential state had begun for these believers and they fell away from that.


And another main point in this is, ανασταυροῦντας , they are continually repeating their dead works.

They are not going to change their mind while they are continuing in their dead works. A believer will not come out of reversionism if they continue in their dead works.......It is impossible.

It is why some believers can't see eternal security. They are in their dead works to maintain their salvation. Until they come out of their dead works.......It will be impossible for them to see and believe eternal security. We have to go beyond the elementary principles of Christ to ABSOLUTELY KNOW eternal security.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
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Alabama
I think what is being overlooked here is the ingressive Aorist. There is a contrast set up.

Something that is concluded and something that "has begun."

They are not falling away from something that is looked at from a completed action, they are falling away from the things that "had begun" in their Christian walk. The experiential state had begun for these believers and they fell away from that.
They had fallen away from the condition they had previously occupied. This is clearly presented contextually. What was their state? They had

1. Been enlightened.
2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 saying, Jesus "tasted" death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampling, this is an embracing of the full experience.
3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.
4. Tasted the good word of God.

B. The new state they "had begun" was one of "falling away." From what then have they fallen?

1. An enlightened state.
2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
4. The good word of God.
5. They have crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

And another main point in this is, ανασταυροῦντας , they are continually repeating their dead works.
ανασταυροῦντας is directly connected to their attitude toward Christ. You are inserting the issue of "dead works." This appears nowhere in the text. Their sin was not continuing in dead works, it was abandoning their former state and disregarding the value of the cross. This represents and epistomological shift away form Christ. This was a deliberate and active shift. This is precisely what the writer describes in 10:829, "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" This is a complete and deliberate abandonment of a saved condition.

They are not going to change their mind while they are continuing in their dead works. A believer will not come out of reversionism if they continue in their dead works.......It is impossible.
One cannot fall away from a position nor be REnewed AGAIN to a state he has never occupied. These words have meaning. They had one possessed a repentant mind. Because they had fallen away and in their minds disregarded the cross they could no longer be brought back into that state of repentance.


It is why some believers can't see eternal security. They are in their dead works to maintain their salvation. Until they come out of their dead works.......It will be impossible for them to see and believe eternal security. We have to go beyond the elementary principles of Christ to ABSOLUTELY KNOW eternal security.
Again, salvation is not nor has it ever been unconditional. Fellowship with God has ALWAYS been based on the revealed principle of reciprocity. Salvation is eternal but only to those who remain faithful. It is not unconditional.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
They had fallen away from the condition they had previously occupied. This is clearly presented contextually. What was their state? They had

1. Been enlightened.
2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 saying, Jesus "tasted" death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampling, this is an embracing of the full experience.
3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.
4. Tasted the good word of God.

B. The new state they "had begun" was one of "falling away." From what then have they fallen?

1. An enlightened state.
2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
4. The good word of God.
5. They have crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.



ανασταυροῦντας is directly connected to their attitude toward Christ. You are inserting the issue of "dead works." This appears nowhere in the text. Their sin was not continuing in dead works, it was abandoning their former state and disregarding the value of the cross. This represents and epistomological shift away form Christ. This was a deliberate and active shift. This is precisely what the writer describes in 10:829, "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" This is a complete and deliberate abandonment of a saved condition.



One cannot fall away from a position nor be REnewed AGAIN to a state he has never occupied. These words have meaning. They had one possessed a repentant mind. Because they had fallen away and in their minds disregarded the cross they could no longer be brought back into that state of repentance.




Again, salvation is not nor has it ever been unconditional. Fellowship with God has ALWAYS been based on the revealed principle of reciprocity. Salvation is eternal but only to those who remain faithful. It is not unconditional.
Thanks for your time Brother.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
Heb 6:1~~English Standard Version
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

King James Bible
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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Well, I tried to stay away from this thread, but it seems like I am being drawn into. Forgive me for not reading all 44 pages, but this grammar and use of the Greek in the last couple of pages is very interesting. However, whether it is truly fruitful is another matter!

I just spent the last hour or more reading 4 commentaries and 2 Greek Grammar books. Very interesting stuff. I have to agree with OH that the basic sentence structure is "It is impossible........to renew them again to repentance." With a string of participles in the middle.

However, I do believe this passage has to be read in a much bigger context of Hebrews, especially the preceding chapter and the following verses. Context again being crucial to the interpretation.

George Guthrie, a noted Greek scholar says in the NIV Application Commentary, that scholars have big disagreement on how to interpret the passage from 6:4-12.

1. The language of the passage is notoriously ambiguous. At several points the terminology describes certain phenomena without defining exactly what the author has in mind. What does seem certain, given the evidence, that the description in 6:4-6 fits those who have taken initial steps in associating with the Christian community. Whether this means they have been changed by the power of God into "new creatures" or have manifest certain phenomena normally associated with the new life, but never giving evidence that a true life -change has happened, forms the central question in debates in the passage.

2. Since presuppositionless hermeneutic is impossible, every interpreter comes to the text with the preconceived ideas on the theological issues addressed. In other words we all carry certain theological baggage into the task of interpretion. So OH, you cannot say you are merely showing the grammar, because I can cite scholars who can show you that the passage says the opposite of what you are saying about the grammar, from the Greek.

Reminders!

In light of the above difficulties, we need to remember several important hermeneutical guidelines.

1. We must keep in mind that the genre of the passage is exhortation. Of course, theology underlies the author's hortatory material in Hebrews, but the primary purpose of 6:4-12 is to motivate to action, rather than to offer theological instruction. Thus when we approach a text like 6:4-8 for theological instruction, we come at the text with a purpose that was at least secondary in the author's mind. The author's theology is presupposed and is now in the service of exhortation. We must ask, "In what way did the author intend for this passage to motivate his hearers to change their attitudes and actions?" and "What are the dynamics here that could be misinterpreted if we do not keep the 'hortatory factor' in view?"

2. Also related to the issue of genre, we must recognize 6:7-8 (not part of the OP, but necessary to understand the passage!) as a widely used wisdom form found in both biblical and extra-biblical lierature, which depicts the blessig associated with fruitfulness over and against the curse associated with bareness. We should be careful of associating specific theological constructs with the images of "rain," "crops," "thorns," and even "being burned." The material is meant to be metaphorical or analogous wth spiritual realities without directly making reference to those realities. Although the author uses "fire" as an image of judgment elsewhere in Hebrews (10:27, 12:29) and it certainly alludes to judgement here, to draw too narrow a theological conclusion from the image of burning in 6:8 (such as it being a reference to hell) is to neglect the wisdom form of the author's illustration. The image of burning, rather, presents a picture of destruction, without defining the specific nature of that destruction.

3. We must be careful about jumping from a possible word meaning to a theological conclusion when the author himself has not defined the word in question. I do not mean when must remain agnostic about the author's meaning of this passage, but its ambiguity calls for caution. Whether we come from a tradition that affirms "perserverance of the saints" (eternal security) or one that holds apostasy as possible for true believers, we tend to seize on word meanings that seem to support our position!

The five positions on this passage noted by Guthrie include:

1. The hypothetical view suggests that the author crafts this harsh warning for rhetorical impact, to blast the hearers out of the spiritual slumber, but that the state described cannot really happen. The passage would be read "If there were those who fell away, which cannot really happen, then it would be impossible to renew them to repentance." The problem with this is that it ignores the harshness of the warnings, with impending judgement for those who do not heed these exhorations, and the judgements are presented as real, not hypothetical.

2. The preconversion Jew view, states that those addressed are Jews who have associated with the Christian community, but have yet to make a commitment to Christ. Yet the many overt references to those being challenged as, for example, "holy brothers" (3:1), a part of Christ's house (3:6), Christ's companions (3:14), and those who have made a profession (4:14), makes this position untenable. The immediate passage seems to point to those who in some way have been associated with Christian practice and belief.

3. The covenant community view, which states that God and the author has in mind God's rejection of a whole community rather than individuals. (Isa. 5:1-7 forms the backdrop of Hebrews 6:4-12!) Yet the author of Hebrews seems to make distinctions between different groups and individuals within this Christian community (4:1, 6:4-6)

4. The true believer under judgment view is the position that holds that those threatened by the judgment of God indeed are true believers and do face severe judgment by God but cannot lose their salvation. This position takes seriously the language of 4:6-8 and other passages in the book that seem to suggest the fallen have been assoicated with the Christian movement. Hebrews 10:20 states "The Lord will judge his people." The problem with this view, is that verses such as 3:6, 14 in which the author expresses concern over his friends if they do not hold on to their courage and hope. They seem to have "fallen short" of a commitment that combines faith with hearing the gospel. (4:1-2) Futhermore, 10:26-31 describes the fallen as "enemies of God" (v27) they are those for whom there no longer exists a sacrifice and whose end is destruction. (10:26, 29, 31) It seems like the warnings are simply too harsh and specific to tone them down to a loss of reward, rather than a loss of salvation.

5. The phenomenological true believer view interprets that those under consideration must be judged as having been true, regenerate believers, who have now lost their relationship to Christ and can no longer anticipate salvation upon Christ's return. This interpretation rests on the "phenomena" surrounding the "Christian experience" detailed by the author in Hebrews 6:4-8 and other passages in the book. I disagree with this viewpoint, because it means that one can have present dimensions of salvation and "lose faith." In other words, we can have a true relationship with Christ, and then, through lack of perserverance, can lose that relationship. At 4:1-2 the author expresses concern about those who seem to have fallen short of the promised rest. It must be remembered that faith for Hebrews equals obedience to the will of God. Therefore, for Hebrews and for New Testament theology, generally, true relationship with God results in a lifestyle of obedience to God. So in Hebrews 6:7-8, the illustration depicts a barren land, in spite of the blessings of God, which has failed to produce fruit. By contrast, those who are truly being made holy have evidence of salvation (6:9) have been perfected for all time (10:14) have come to Mount Zion, where the spirits of righteous men have been made perfect (12:22-24) and will experience the consummation of salvation at the end (9:28).

Salvation has a continuity from present to future and manifests a life of perserveance and obedience to God. If the present involves true salvation, that salvation will be consummated at the end. If at the end, one has failed to persevere, then the former public association with the Christian community is manifested to have been illegitimate. This does not mean the apostates were knowingly fradulent, just that they had not been truly changed by God's power.

6. The phenomenlogical unbeliever view has been a favourite of those with Calvinistic orientation and proposes that the "fallen" in Hebrews may have been seen to be genuine as they participated in the community of believers, but in fact, by their rejection of Christ have shown themselves to lack genuine faith. The danger heralded in the warnings is real, constituting eternal judgement, and those being addressed could commit the sin. The author uses language in 6:4-6 that can be interpreted as addressing Christians. The phenomelogical unbeliever holds that the ambiguous language suggests a position in the things of God associated with entrance Christians - the outward appearance is like Christians but they have not experienced true faith.

Finally, most discussions of the warnings in Hebrews 6:4-6 have greatly neglected the "omniscience" factor. The author admits his lack of knowledge concerning the spiritual state of all those in this community of hearers. That spiritual state, can only be discerened in light of ongoing fruitfulness and perseverance. (3:6, 14; 4:1-2; 6:11)
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
Well, I tried to stay away from this thread, but it seems like I am being drawn into. Forgive me for not reading all 44 pages, but this grammar and use of the Greek in the last couple of pages is very interesting. However, whether it is truly fruitful is another matter!

I just spent the last hour or more reading 4 commentaries and 2 Greek Grammar books. Very interesting stuff. I have to agree with OH that the basic sentence structure is "It is impossible........to renew them again to repentance." With a string of participles in the middle.

However, I do believe this passage has to be read in a much bigger context of Hebrews, especially the preceding chapter and the following verses. Context again being crucial to the interpretation.

George Guthrie, a noted Greek scholar says in the NIV Application Commentary, that scholars have big disagreement on how to interpret the passage from 6:4-12.

1. The language of the passage is notoriously ambiguous. At several points the terminology describes certain phenomena without defining exactly what the author has in mind. What does seem certain, given the evidence, that the description in 6:4-6 fits those who have taken initial steps in associating with the Christian community. Whether this means they have been changed by the power of God into "new creatures" or have manifest certain phenomena normally associated with the new life, but never giving evidence that a true life -change has happened, forms the central question in debates in the passage.

2. Since presuppositionless hermeneutic is impossible, every interpreter comes to the text with the preconceived ideas on the theological issues addressed. In other words we all carry certain theological baggage into the task of interpretion. So OH, you cannot say you are merely showing the grammar, because I can cite scholars who can show you that the passage says the opposite of what you are saying about the grammar, from the Greek.

Reminders!

In light of the above difficulties, we need to remember several important hermeneutical guidelines.

1. We must keep in mind that the genre of the passage is exhortation. Of course, theology underlies the author's hortatory material in Hebrews, but the primary purpose of 6:4-12 is to motivate to action, rather than to offer theological instruction. Thus when we approach a text like 6:4-8 for theological instruction, we come at the text with a purpose that was at least secondary in the author's mind. The author's theology is presupposed and is now in the service of exhortation. We must ask, "In what way did the author intend for this passage to motivate his hearers to change their attitudes and actions?" and "What are the dynamics here that could be misinterpreted if we do not keep the 'hortatory factor' in view?"

2. Also related to the issue of genre, we must recognize 6:7-8 (not part of the OP, but necessary to understand the passage!) as a widely used wisdom form found in both biblical and extra-biblical lierature, which depicts the blessig associated with fruitfulness over and against the curse associated with bareness. We should be careful of associating specific theological constructs with the images of "rain," "crops," "thorns," and even "being burned." The material is meant to be metaphorical or analogous wth spiritual realities without directly making reference to those realities. Although the author uses "fire" as an image of judgment elsewhere in Hebrews (10:27, 12:29) and it certainly alludes to judgement here, to draw too narrow a theological conclusion from the image of burning in 6:8 (such as it being a reference to hell) is to neglect the wisdom form of the author's illustration. The image of burning, rather, presents a picture of destruction, without defining the specific nature of that destruction.

3. We must be careful about jumping from a possible word meaning to a theological conclusion when the author himself has not defined the word in question. I do not mean when must remain agnostic about the author's meaning of this passage, but its ambiguity calls for caution. Whether we come from a tradition that affirms "perserverance of the saints" (eternal security) or one that holds apostasy as possible for true believers, we tend to seize on word meanings that seem to support our position!

The five positions on this passage noted by Guthrie include:

1. The hypothetical view suggests that the author crafts this harsh warning for rhetorical impact, to blast the hearers out of the spiritual slumber, but that the state described cannot really happen. The passage would be read "If there were those who fell away, which cannot really happen, then it would be impossible to renew them to repentance." The problem with this is that it ignores the harshness of the warnings, with impending judgement for those who do not heed these exhorations, and the judgements are presented as real, not hypothetical.

2. The preconversion Jew view, states that those addressed are Jews who have associated with the Christian community, but have yet to make a commitment to Christ. Yet the many overt references to those being challenged as, for example, "holy brothers" (3:1), a part of Christ's house (3:6), Christ's companions (3:14), and those who have made a profession (4:14), makes this position untenable. The immediate passage seems to point to those who in some way have been associated with Christian practice and belief.

3. The covenant community view, which states that God and the author has in mind God's rejection of a whole community rather than individuals. (Isa. 5:1-7 forms the backdrop of Hebrews 6:4-12!) Yet the author of Hebrews seems to make distinctions between different groups and individuals within this Christian community (4:1, 6:4-6)

4. The true believer under judgment view is the position that holds that those threatened by the judgment of God indeed are true believers and do face severe judgment by God but cannot lose their salvation. This position takes seriously the language of 4:6-8 and other passages in the book that seem to suggest the fallen have been assoicated with the Christian movement. Hebrews 10:20 states "The Lord will judge his people." The problem with this view, is that verses such as 3:6, 14 in which the author expresses concern over his friends if they do not hold on to their courage and hope. They seem to have "fallen short" of a commitment that combines faith with hearing the gospel. (4:1-2) Futhermore, 10:26-31 describes the fallen as "enemies of God" (v27) they are those for whom there no longer exists a sacrifice and whose end is destruction. (10:26, 29, 31) It seems like the warnings are simply too harsh and specific to tone them down to a loss of reward, rather than a loss of salvation.

5. The phenomenological true believer view interprets that those under consideration must be judged as having been true, regenerate believers, who have now lost their relationship to Christ and can no longer anticipate salvation upon Christ's return. This interpretation rests on the "phenomena" surrounding the "Christian experience" detailed by the author in Hebrews 6:4-8 and other passages in the book. I disagree with this viewpoint, because it means that one can have present dimensions of salvation and "lose faith." In other words, we can have a true relationship with Christ, and then, through lack of perserverance, can lose that relationship. At 4:1-2 the author expresses concern about those who seem to have fallen short of the promised rest. It must be remembered that faith for Hebrews equals obedience to the will of God. Therefore, for Hebrews and for New Testament theology, generally, true relationship with God results in a lifestyle of obedience to God. So in Hebrews 6:7-8, the illustration depicts a barren land, in spite of the blessings of God, which has failed to produce fruit. By contrast, those who are truly being made holy have evidence of salvation (6:9) have been perfected for all time (10:14) have come to Mount Zion, where the spirits of righteous men have been made perfect (12:22-24) and will experience the consummation of salvation at the end (9:28).

Salvation has a continuity from present to future and manifests a life of perserveance and obedience to God. If the present involves true salvation, that salvation will be consummated at the end. If at the end, one has failed to persevere, then the former public association with the Christian community is manifested to have been illegitimate. This does not mean the apostates were knowingly fradulent, just that they had not been truly changed by God's power.

6. The phenomenlogical unbeliever view has been a favourite of those with Calvinistic orientation and proposes that the "fallen" in Hebrews may have been seen to be genuine as they participated in the community of believers, but in fact, by their rejection of Christ have shown themselves to lack genuine faith. The danger heralded in the warnings is real, constituting eternal judgement, and those being addressed could commit the sin. The author uses language in 6:4-6 that can be interpreted as addressing Christians. The phenomelogical unbeliever holds that the ambiguous language suggests a position in the things of God associated with entrance Christians - the outward appearance is like Christians but they have not experienced true faith.

Finally, most discussions of the warnings in Hebrews 6:4-6 have greatly neglected the "omniscience" factor. The author admits his lack of knowledge concerning the spiritual state of all those in this community of hearers. That spiritual state, can only be discerened in light of ongoing fruitfulness and perseverance. (3:6, 14; 4:1-2; 6:11)
And I have to admit, I am over my head. I came from a calvinistic or reformed bent. So I have never viewed these passages from a eternal security view. I had the perseverance of the saints view.

So really, I am right in the middle of "unlearning" what was drilled in my head.

For me personally, eternal security and perseverance of the saints...................are worlds apart, and eternal security answers all the questions and contradictions I had with "perseverance of the saints."

For me its pretty simple................the bible never, ever,ever talks about loss of salvation.

For discipline in this life.............the believer has more than the unbeliever. We are held to a higher standard. The unbeliever is held to the standard of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The believer.......to whom much is given, much is required. The more the believer grows in grace and knowledge, the higher the discipline for that believer if they go negative to Gods plan for their lives.


The believer SHOULD produce fruit and works..........because all it takes to be saved is to recognize that we are sinners and repent of our unbelief that Christ paid that price in His death, burial and resurrection.

We enter the kingdom by belief.

We inherit the kingdom by our works.

And there are many, many believes who are not going to inherit the kingdom. And most here think that it is all about sinning and "being bad." But the majority of Christians who will not inherit the kingdom are the ones who believe they can lose their salvation and are working till they are blue in the face to "maintain" salvation..........DEAD works.

They are missing out and think they are doing Soooooooooo good. It honestly breaks my heart to watch it.
 
P

purgedconscience

Guest
For me its pretty simple................the bible never, ever,ever talks about loss of salvation.
I don't know what Bible you're reading. The Bible is loaded with fearful warnings about losing one's salvation.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
69
Alabama
Heb 6:1~~English Standard Version
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

King James Bible
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
The dead works he is talking about is returning to the law. I cannot understand why you are having so much trouble seeing such a simple thing. These Jews had at some point received Christ and had been granted all the privileges that accompany salvation that are presented as a collection of participle phrases in verse four and five. These are common to all the saved. They had at that point forsaken the Law and embraced the cross. These people were saved! Later, they abandoned Christianity and returned to the Law and the Hebrew writer will later give some reasons for this apostasy. They had returned to the dead works of the Law and turned their backs on the cross despising the sacrifice of Jesus. The cross had lost it appeal and because of this there was no way to restore them again to repentance. They had been brought to repentance once before through the preaching of the gospel but now that gospel has no more appeal to them and they fell away from their redeemed state and there was no way to bring them back.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
I don't know what Bible you're reading. The Bible is loaded with fearful warnings about losing one's salvation.
I kinda think... in dispensing with the word LOSE.... and using vocabulary like "a person can abandon, cast off, reject... their salvation" gets some people to actually hear... it circumvents the conditioned defense default... sometimes.
 
P

purgedconscience

Guest
I kinda think... in dispensing with the word LOSE.... and using vocabulary like "a person can abandon, cast off, reject... their salvation" gets some people to actually hear... it circumvents the conditioned defense default... sometimes.
I hear you, but I'd ask you to consider some of these synonyms for the word lose:

Lose Synonyms, Lose Antonyms | Thesaurus.com

On that list of synonyms, you'll find such words as fail and dispossess, to name just two.

Hebrews chapter 12 verses 14 thru 16

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


Why the admonition to look diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God if any man cannot fail of the grace of God? Mind you, this epistle was written to Christians or to believers and not to unbelievers.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 14 thru 30

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


This man Who called His servants and delivered unto them His goods or His talents is Jesus Christ and His servants are Christians. Christians, according to Luke's parallel account, are supposed to be occupying until Christ comes or are supposed to be sowing and strawing in relation to the gospel that others might be saved because Jesus expects what He has given us back with usury or with interest at His return. Yes, Jesus truly does reap where He hasn't sown and He truly does gather where He hasn't strawed because He reaps that which His faithful and obedient servants have sown and He gathers that which His faithful and obedient servants have strawed. Well, what happens to the unfaithful and disobedient servants who do nothing with the talents that Jesus has given them? They have their talents taken away from them as unprofitable servants and they are cast into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Does that sound like once saved, always saved to you? I trust that it doesn't, but, amazingly, many, many people both on this forum and elsewhere regularly dismiss such sober and fearful warnings to their own potential demise and also to the potential demises of those in their spheres of influence.

Christians can lose (fail, dispossess, etc.) their salvation. The scriptures make this clear and I could cite many, many more examples of the same which is why I mentioned to that one poster that I don't know what Bible he is reading...assuming that he actually reads the Bible. I have a friend who used to ask me about this whole once saved, always saved thing for years. Finally, I bought him the Bible on CD and gave it to him as a gift. Well, he does a lot of driving for work and he began to listen to it daily. After about a month, he called me on the phone and told me that he would never have to ask me that question again. In other words, he told me that he heard fearful after fearful after fearful warnings all throughout the Bible and he now knows that once saved, always saved isn't true.
 
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BarlyGurl

Guest
>>>> Finally, I bought him the Bible on CD and gave it to him as a gift. Well, he does a lot of driving for work and he began to listen to it daily. After about a month, he called me on the phone and told me that he would never have to ask me that question again. In other words, he told me that he heard fearful after fearful after fearful warnings all throughout the Bible and he now knows that once saved, always saved isn't true.<<<<

PRAISE GOD! I am wondering WHAT particular recording you used? I do not particularly care for the theatrical ones and that is all I ever find.
 
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purgedconscience

Guest
>>>> Finally, I bought him the Bible on CD and gave it to him as a gift. Well, he does a lot of driving for work and he began to listen to it daily. After about a month, he called me on the phone and told me that he would never have to ask me that question again. In other words, he told me that he heard fearful after fearful after fearful warnings all throughout the Bible and he now knows that once saved, always saved isn't true.<<<<

PRAISE GOD! I am wondering WHAT particular recording you used? I do not particularly care for the theatrical ones and that is all I ever find.
Unfortunately, there's enough theater already in most churches these days so I definitely shy away from theater when it comes to listening to the Bible on CD. I gave him a reading of the KJV on CD with no background music and no theatrics...just a plain reading of the Word of God.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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P.C. and O.H. What you describe as simple is indeed simple if and only if you approach it with a perseverence mindset!

We seem to agree an the basic principle that Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture.

Based on that principle; we who are persuaded of the truth of OSAS, cannot forget that 'truth' as we approach this passage. We seek a reading, consistent with that truth, which is also consistent with common usage of the words in the text.
 
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purgedconscience

Guest
P.C. and O.H. What you describe as simple is indeed simple if and only if you approach it with a perseverence mindset!

We seem to agree an the basic principle that Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture.

Based on that principle; we who are persuaded of the truth of OSAS, cannot forget that 'truth' as we approach this passage. We seek a reading, consistent with that truth, which is also consistent with common usage of the words in the text.
Hi Marc.

What, may I ask, is the simple reading of what I cited from Matthew chapter 25 in relation to the man, His servants and the talents? Did the servant who had his talent taken away from him as he was called an unprofitable servant and cast into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth somehow persevere?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
Hi Marc.

What, may I ask, is the simple reading of what I cited from Matthew chapter 25 in relation to the man, His servants and the talents? Did the servant who had his talent taken away from him as he was called an unprofitable servant and cast into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth somehow persevere?

Sorry about that! I was responding to post #888; and I lost track of who said what! It must be part of the aging process:); I didn't used to do that (at least not often).