Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[valiant]

I'll try and explain this, like people describing similar things using different "terminology"...Like "tools", for example...One person might refer to "slotted pliers", Yet until I ask him to point out what they are talking about? OH!!...Channel Locks! Why didn't you say so? I DID! they said.... Both of us were correct! So, as one may notice, the "tower of babel" syndrome is still in effect.

What one person may describe as being unsaved and saved, and unsaved yet again, and then saved again? I might describe as one who's heart is being circumcised WITH Christ! Little bit, by little bit! Because in many ways? What that person describes, is how it really feels to them! Differences in terminology!

What one person may describe as being unsaved and saved, and unsaved yet again, and then saved again?

That is nonsense. You cannot continue being saved again and again when GOD is doing the saving. It is not different terminology it is blasphemy.

 

[brighthouse98]

Sister Kathy Followers,you stated Judas was never saved,Let us consider a few things. 1.Judas was just as much an apostle as the other 11.( Matt 10:1-6) verse 4!! So if judas was not a believer neither were the rest of them.In order to have power from the Lord you have to believe!

Judas was not just a disciple but rather an apostle! 2.Your scripture in heb 6:4-6 is mistaken much by both sides of OSAS and those who do not believe this,if you go to gal 5:4 this explains perfectly heb 6:4-6!This is what heb 6:4-6 is talking about.3. If one fails away from the faith, then they had to believe in something to fall away from it.( Matt 13:20-21) and 1 Tim 4:1-2 If you are right,then not one single apostle was truly saved until after the death and resurrection of Jesus,which I would agree upon as all denied him and left him!!!( Matt 26:56)

Judas had chosen,he was a thief to begin with( john 12:4-6) notice verse 4!!! Here he decided he was going to betray him! Notice he was counted as one of them!!( Acts 1:16-17) And to replace him ( Acts 1:23-26) Judas fell away from the faith,due to ( matt 13:21-22!) You cannot fall away from someone or something unless you have first believed is the point.

There is no getting around this truth. For those in verse 23 these are the OSAS people! These bear good fruit! Fruit is a requirement to bear as a true believer!( John 15:1-8) verse 7 IF YOU ABIDE!! The condition to remain a believer! Hope this helps so many!!

 

[mailmandan]

They don't get it - the dog has returned to its vomit, and the hog to its wallowing in the mud, not the sheep.

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't think the chapters in Hebrews 5 and 6 are speaking about salvation, but rather about being mature believers. The inheritance that the writer is speaking about is the kingdom of God, and that's the work of Holy Spirit in our life. If we are committing acts of the flesh, then the fruit is not good. We will produce thorns and thistles, the scriptures say...which will bring shame on the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The kingdom of heaven is our eternal destination, and no flesh will stand in the presence of God. It's burnt...

We are wrestling with scriptures out of context.

 

[valiant]

Sister Kathy Followers,you stated Judas was never saved,Let us consider a few things. 1.Judas was just as much an apostle as the other 11.( Matt 10:1-6) verse 4!! So if judas was not a believer neither were the rest of them.In order to have power from the Lord you have to believe!

you are in error. Jesus Himself said, 'Have I not chosen you, and one of you is a demon'. And John adds, 'For Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray Him.' It is clear that Judas was not a true believer unless you accept that Jesus deliberately employed a believer knowing he would betray Him and finally be lost with all that that implies? He is later called 'the son of Perdition'.

Judas was not just a disciple but rather an apostle!

Well?

2.Your scripture in heb 6:4-6 is mistaken much by both sides of OSAS

It is actually quite clear. They were men who had experienced revival but who had never finally yielded. They had 'gone along with the Spirit', but there is no suggestion of rebirth. They are then described as barren land. And the writer adds, 'but we are persuaded of better things of you, things that accompany salvation'

and those who do not believe this,if you go to gal 5:4 this explains perfectly heb 6:4-6!

That is talking of 'falling from grace' doctrinally, not practically. They had messed up their doctrine, not their lives.

3. If one fails away from the faith, then they had to believe in something to fall away from it.( Matt 13:20-21) and 1 Tim 4:1-2

They fell way from 'the faith' (the content of Christian belief) rather than 'from faith'. They had only been nominal believers.

If you are right,then not one single apostle was truly saved until after the death and resurrection of Jesus,which I would agree upon as all denied him and left him!!!( Matt 26:56)

No we accept that a Christian can backslide and yet not be lost. This happened to the Apostles when they left Him. But He soon brought them back.

Judas had chosen,he was a thief to begin with( john 12:4-6) notice verse 4!!! Here he decided he was going to betray him!

Clear marks of a genuine Apostle? I don't think so. He had not believed from the beginning.

Notice he was counted as one of them!!( Acts 1:16-17)

And outwardly he was.

And to replace him ( Acts 1:23-26) Judas fell away from the faith,due to ( matt 13:21-22!) You cannot fall away from someone or something unless you have first believed is the point.

Yes he was himself false ground. I know many who have fallen away from the church ('the faith'). They too were false 'believers'.

There is no getting around this truth.

Except by looking at Scripture correctly.

For those in verse 23 these are the OSAS people! These bear good fruit! Fruit is a requirement to bear as a true believer!

They were GOOD ground and produced fruit, as you say they were osas believers.

John 15:1-8) verse 7 IF YOU ABIDE!! The condition to remain a believer!

The fruitful branches are osas believers. The others were fruitless and never abided. They were cut off from the stem, as they never belonged. But it is true a true believer will abide. It is not a condition but a fact.,

 

[brighthouse98]

Brother Valiant you cannot change words to fit your theology. hehe The scripture is clear as to its meaning it has no need to be altered. hehe I have show clear scripture you have shown none. nominal Christians?? where does it say that in the word?? hehe There is no lukewarm that Christ will accept, the point is that a lukewarm believer considers themselves to be believers! Rev 3:16 much to there own demise.

Yes he choose him,just like we are chosen,and you know as well there are many like this today ( 1 john 2:19) they say they believe,but there fruit is that of a non believer,but they claim to be believers is the point! We cannot judge the heart of man only the fruit of man brother. And backsliding is not in the word either. You either believe or you do not believe.( luke 15:11-32 the prodigal son did not backslide he believed he was no longer a son,until he found out he was.So the error is not on my part,i have shown scripture clearly. Please show me your scripture? for how you changed the wording?

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus Himself said, 'Have I not chosen you, and one of you is a demon'. And John adds, 'For Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray Him.' It is clear that Judas was not a true believer unless you accept that Jesus deliberately employed a believer knowing he would betray Him and finally be lost with all that that implies? He is later called 'the son of Perdition'.

Amen! Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

 

[valiant]

Brother Valiant you cannot change words to fit your theology. hehe

I have changed my theology to fit the Scriptures

The scripture is clear as to its meaning it has no need to be altered. hehe

I agree it is clear, on my side.

I have show clear scripture you have shown none.

none of your Scriptures say what you say

nominal Christians?? where does it say that in the word?? hehe

all through the NT.

There is no lukewarm that Christ will accept, the point is that a lukewarm believer considers themselves to be believers! Rev 3:16 much to there own demise

.

well that's one example of nominal Christians They consider THEMSELVES to be believers. Christ sees them differently

Yes he choose him,just like we are chosen,and you know as well there are many like this today ( 1 john 2:19) they say they believe,but there fruit is that of a non believer,but they claim to be believers is the point

They were nominal Christians, Christians in name only. Their CLAIM means nothing.!

We cannot judge the heart of man only the fruit of man brother.

But God does.

And backsliding is not in the word either.

Look harder lol

You either believe or you do not believe.

no there are different levels of belief. There are those who believe from the heart, and those who believe from the head. Only the heart believers are real believers, and are saved,

( luke 15:11-32) the prodigal son did not backslide he believed he was no longer a son,until he found out he was.

The prodigal son was a parabolic picture of the lost in Israel.

 

[dcontroversal]

You could never say it too much.

If anything, we probably do not say it enough.. We need to have faith in it and praise God with it,,

Jesus was clear...He will finish what he started......and it is by his power, strength, blood and faith that we can have that assurance of eternal salvation and life.....

 

[mailmandan]

no there are different levels of belief. There are those who believe from the heart, and those who believe from the head. Only the heart believers are real believers, and are saved

Amen! The word "believe" can describe "mere mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64).

 

[PeterJens]

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:10

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Phil 1:6

Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen
Heb 13:20-21

Amen that we trust in Christ our good shepherd to lead us in the way,
to finish the work He has started, Hallelujah.

Our trust is in God alone whose work in us we rejoice in and praise His
name for calling us friends and holy people of God, Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

no there are different levels of belief. There are those who believe from the heart, and those who believe from the head. Only the heart believers are real believers, and are saved,

Amen. The heart is everything, cleansed , purified and filled with the Holy Spirit, Amen.

I am glad that the brethren in the Lord can come together in agreement to praise our
heavenly King.

 

[JohnTalmid]

The "law of Moses" reference is not Torah but rather Talmudic interpretation of Torah. Just wanted to make sure we all understand the difference. This means that Torah still applies but the dogma or traditional teachings of the teachers of the law where wrong to change Torah. Be careful with saying Sabbath has changed or done away with. Messiah Yeshua did protect Sabbath by healing on Sabbath showing what the Sabbath is meant for, mankind's rest. It seems to me and others that the modern faith of Christianity is just as superficial as Jewdaisum in the day of Messiah and the desiples.

How would one keep Sabbath in the Arctic was posted as a question. When Messiah healed on Sabbath didn't He ask the teachers of the Torah if it was lawful?

 

[OneFaith]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Actually, not so. This was the whole purpose of the parable of the prodigal son. He was in good standing with his father, he left his father, and when he came back to the father, what did the father say? "My son was dead but now he is alive." He didn't die physically, but spiritually. ("God is the God of the living, not the dead.")

When we leave the Father, we are spiritually dead. Jesus said "I tell you the truth, unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man (spiritually), and drink His blood, you have no life in you." Does our heart beat once? No- it beats continuously to supply the whole body with blood- and the Bible says the life is in the blood.

It's not enough to get baptized into Christ, you have to continuously partake of the Lords Supper, upon the first day of the week, in the assembly of the church. If you leave Christ's body (His church), then you leave Christ, and His blood. If you go back to living in the world, sinning purposely, "there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." And "no longer" means there once did, but no longer does. (Hebrews 10:26)

 

[fredoheaven]

The fruitful branches are osas believers. The others were fruitless and never abided. They were cut off from the stem, as they never belonged. But it is true a true believer will abide. It is not a condition but a fact.,

Good one!

I think you all provided the answer to the long discussion on the vine and the branches in John 15. It seems to the many that to ‘abide will always means to ‘remain’ but this is not all the case. Abide means Abode so that unnecessary branches were indeed cut off, in the first place because they ‘never belong’ to the vine. They never adapt since they were not actually part the vine. Soon they are fruitless and they die. When one abode, he was in that place staying/ residing for some time but never a part or belong to.

God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

2.Your scripture in heb 6:4-6 is mistaken much by both sides of OSAS and those who do not believe this,if you go to gal 5:4 this explains perfectly heb 6:4-6!This is what heb 6:4-6 is talking about.3. If one fails away from the faith, then they had to believe in something to fall away from it.( Matt 13:20-21) and 1 Tim 4:1-2

‘Fallen from grace’ refers to those who are legalist, they are unsaved, unbelieving ones. Fall away? Paul says “we are not of them” so how can a believer fall? In fact the book of Jude says in v.24-25 that God is wise enough that He is able to keep His own from FALLING.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

‘Fallen from grace’ refers to those who are legalist, they are unsaved, unbelieving ones. Fall away? Paul says “we are not of them” so how can a believer fall? In fact the book of Jude says in v.24-25 that God is wise enough that He is able to keep His own from FALLING.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Able is your keyword meaning for who abide in him God is able to keep him from falling.

 

[fredoheaven]

Able is your keyword meaning for who abide in him God is able to keep him from falling.

Hi,

Correct me if I'm wrong, did the passage tell us something about abide/abiding in Jude?

According to Jude says his God is wise enough...

God bless

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hi,

Correct me if I'm wrong, did the passage tell us something about abide/abiding in Jude?

According to Jude says his God is wise enough...

God bless

You get this understanding from all the other scriptures which is why i included that. Its not hard to see it throughout scripture the only way to see Gods promises is to remain faithful. And your right leaning on God is all we need to keep us from falling.

 

[fredoheaven]

You get this understanding from all the other scriptures which is why i included that. Its not hard to see it throughout scripture the only way to see Gods promises is to remain faithful. And your right leaning on God is all we need to keep us from falling.

Yea, I get this understanding using other similar scriptures 'line upon line' (Isah. 28:10). Remaining faithful is another topic I guess, and like a steward, we must be found faithful.

The point is it is because of God who is able to keep us from falling an answer to Hebrews 6 wherein it says "we are not them" and "For it is impossible" .

God bless