HELL

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Disdame45

Guest
#81
Could it be that the parable Jesus told of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not to be taken literally but rather symbolically? I think Jesus was teaching a valuable lesson in that parable and yet many miss the point because they are trying to fit it into their own idea of what heaven and hell are supposed to be. I have heard so many people claim that this parable is proof positive that we either go to heaven (Abraham's Bosom in the parable) or we go to hell, as the rich man, suffering in torments immediately when we die.

The rich man symbolized the self-righteous people of Israel who relied on Abraham being their 'father'. They believed that their works and their status of being the sons of Abraham would save them. Remember what Jesus told them in another passage how they could not hear His words because they were listening to their father? When they claimed that their father was Abraham, Jesus said if that was the case, they would be obedient as Abraham was. Instead, they were listening to their father, Satan, the father of lies. This parable is similar to that. The nation of Israel had the awesome responsibility to 'feed' the rest of the world with the light of God's Truth. Lazarus represents the beggar (the poor man desiring to be fed even scraps that fell from the rich man's table) but he also represents the awesome power of the resurrection of Jesus and the saints. The outcome of this parable is that when each man died, angels came to get them and took them to separate places. Lazarus was taken to 'Abraham's Bosom'. Of course, we can't take this literally, since I don't think heaven or paradise comprises of the small little area of Abraham's bosom. It's about faith. Having the faith that Abraham had, because we are sons of Abraham not through the Law or as outward Israelites, but we are sons by faith.
The rich man (remember how Jesus warned the Pharisees and Scribes and other religious leaders about making public displays of their 'righteousness'?) received his reward while he deluded himself into thinking that he was 'in' by mere outward shows of righteousness. When he died, the angel carried him to the fiery place where he thirsted for a drop of water. He sees Lazarus in "Abraham's Bosom' from a distance and he can't go where Lazarus is and Lazarus can't go where he is. There is a great gulf between them. Does this remind anyone of the verses in Revelation where the disobedient will NOT enter into the kingdom? This parable is giving us a glimpse of the lake of fire scene and the righteous that are in "Abraham's Bosom'. Those in 'Abraham's Bosom' are those who take part in the first resurrection, at Christ's coming.
What is REALLY, REALLY important about this parable though, is the fact that the rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers about the place of torment - judgment followed by the lake of fire - the second death. Abraham answers and says that the rich man's brothers have the books of Moses and the Prophets (Old Testament). The rich man pleads and says that he is sure that the brothers would be convinced if someone from the dead were to come and talk to them. Again, Abraham says that if they don't HEAR Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded even if one were to rise from the dead.
What is the point? Moses sympolizes the law and the prophets symbolize faith in Jesus Christ, our Salvation. If people don't listen to the words of the Bible, not just the new testament, but ALL of the scriptures and follow them, no amount of miracles would persaude them to change their ways and enter into the faith of Abraham. Revelation tells us that the patience of the saints are those that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. We need both.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#82
Could it be that the parable Jesus told of the Rich Man and Lazarus
This is definitely not a parable. Christ never used specific names of people in His parables and in this story He clearly mentions Lazarus, so it was an actual event. Christ does not lie. Although it's not a parable there is much to learn from it.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#83
This is definitely not a parable. Christ never used specific names of people in His parables and in this story He clearly mentions Lazarus, so it was an actual event. Christ does not lie. Although it's not a parable there is much to learn from it.
mentioning a name does not suddenly make it a real event. Jesus is actually using a popular story of the time, but he changed it, in the original its the rich man that goes to heaven.

Jesus always used common things to teach spiritual lessons. The other fact that clearly makes this a parable is that he starts it in the same way he does many of His Parables. and on top of that there is the many teachings in the bible on hell that go against this story being real.

I can just see it now. Here I am in paradise watching people burn in agony. I don't think so. And I can even hear them cursing God hmmm sounds great.
 
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Disdame45

Guest
#84
This is definitely not a parable. Christ never used specific names of people in His parables and in this story He clearly mentions Lazarus, so it was an actual event. Christ does not lie. Although it's not a parable there is much to learn from it.

Yes, I've heard that a lot of times. If this were an actual event, why did Christ use the name Lazarus, the very friend that He actually did raise from the dead in the book of John? I'm not sure of the timing of the death of Lazarus in John and when the parable was told in Luke, but I would think that the story was told before Lazarus actually died and was raised back to life. Jesus raised a couple of people from the dead, and then of course, He Himself was resurrected from the dead. Did this miraculous event convince the majority of Israelites that He was the Son of God? Alas, many still reject Him to this day. Again, it points to the fact that if we are not filled with His word, in faith and in obedience, we will not be convinced even if one were to be raised from the dead.
Another thing about parables... they taught truths about the kingdom of God in a veiled way so that only those who had spiritual discernment would have eyes to see and ears to hear them.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#85
Another thing about parables... they taught truths about the kingdom of God in a veiled way so that only those who had spiritual discernment would have eyes to see and ears to hear them.
Absolutely. Amen :)


There are a number of people that claim there is no eternal torment in hell, etc. These people use this story of Lazarus, claiming it to not be an actual event and they use this as evidence for their personal beliefs. This is why I mentioned the relevance of his name being used :)
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#86
mentioning a name does not suddenly make it a real event. Jesus is actually using a popular story of the time, but he changed it, in the original its the rich man that goes to heaven.
Gotime, if you have a reference to the original story, I would love to check it out.

And, I believe whatever the interpretation, Jesus presented this as a parable, because it is sandwiched in the middle of other parables. While He was "on a roll" so to speak.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#87
Right now, when a wicked person dies he goes straight to Hades.

To understand what he experiences we’ve got to go back to the Old Testament. In the Old Testament the place where Spirits would go to is called Sheol. Spirits were thought to lead a conscious shadowy existence there. They were not in torment, but had neither hope nor satisfaction. It was believed to be a gloomy dark place, beneath the earth, a place of sorrow and sadness. It appears to have different levels because the “lowest” and “belly of Sheol” are mentioned. I think the parable of a rich man and Lazarus talks about two such extreme levels.

On occasion, people were thought to be able to leave Sheol for a short while. I think this is where phenomena of mediumship and possession by unclean spirit and Ghost stories and poltergeist come from

But overall Sheol was a place of imprisonment from which Spirits just couldn’t get away. They remained cut off from God. That’s why in Mathew 22 Jesus said.

Mathew 22:32……God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Notice the phrase “God is not the God of the dead”. What does it really mean? It means that Father is not the God of the dead. In other words Father has nothing to do with dead people in Sheol. When a person dies he goes straight to Sheol and that is it. Father has nothing to do with them anymore.

So people in Sheol were without God. They were cut off from him for ever and ever.

And this would be the end of the story but something amazing happened. When Jesus died on the cross He came to this dark gloomy shadowy miserable place and became God of dead people. Never before God was the God of the dead! Never before did people in Sheol had any God. Jesus made it possible. He became the God of the dead. Here is the verse

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived , that he might be Lord both of the dead and living

He died. He went to Sheol (while being dead), He preached the Gospel to the dead and he became the God of the Dead.

That's what this verse below is talking about, but Baptists and the like just can't get it


1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#88
Right now, when a wicked person dies he goes straight to Hades.

To understand what he experiences we’ve got to go back to the Old Testament. In the Old Testament the place where Spirits would go to is called Sheol. Spirits were thought to lead a conscious shadowy existence there. They were not in torment, but had neither hope nor satisfaction. It was believed to be a gloomy dark place, beneath the earth, a place of sorrow and sadness. It appears to have different levels because the “lowest” and “belly of Sheol” are mentioned. I think the parable of a rich man and Lazarus talks about two such extreme levels.

On occasion, people were thought to be able to leave Sheol for a short while. I think this is where phenomena of mediumship and possession by unclean spirit and Ghost stories and poltergeist come from

But overall Sheol was a place of imprisonment from which Spirits just couldn’t get away. They remained cut off from God. That’s why in Mathew 22 Jesus said.

Mathew 22:32……God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Notice the phrase “God is not the God of the dead”. What does it really mean? It means that Father is not the God of the dead. In other words Father has nothing to do with dead people in Sheol. When a person dies he goes straight to Sheol and that is it. Father has nothing to do with them anymore.

So people in Sheol were without God. They were cut off from him for ever and ever.

And this would be the end of the story but something amazing happened. When Jesus died on the cross He came to this dark gloomy shadowy miserable place and became God of dead people. Never before God was the God of the dead! Never before did people in Sheol had any God. Jesus made it possible. He became the God of the dead. Here is the verse

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived , that he might be Lord both of the dead and living

He died. He went to Sheol (while being dead), He preached the Gospel to the dead and he became the God of the Dead.

That's what this verse below is talking about, but Baptists and the like just can't get it


1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
For those interested in a correct understanding, please click:

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave | Berean Bible Society
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#89
For those interested in a correct understanding, please click:
If you did read that website you would find the following:

“…While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments…”

Isn’t what I am talking about? Has the mind of cfultz3 took over again?
 
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Jennyyyyy

Guest
#90
Do you personally believe that some people are predestined to go to Hell before they are even born?
This is exactly my dilemma! I've been trying to sort through this for a while.
It can't be, right? a loving God would not knowingly create people who He knew would be going to Hell from the get go. Right?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#91
If you did read that website you would find the following:

“…While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments…”

Isn’t what I am talking about? Has the mind of cfultz3 took over again?
Yes that is my point exactly. First you said it was then you said it was not you are saying it is...So, perhaps if you stuck to one thing, then could talk, but until then, there is nothing I know to convince you that you keep changing on this.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#92
Yes that is my point exactly. First you said it was then you said it was not you are saying it is...So, perhaps if you stuck to one thing, then could talk, but until then, there is nothing I know to convince you that you keep changing on this.
Do you actually follow what I am saying?
There used to be two compartments. There are no two compartments anymore.
How about you saying that Paradise is in Hades? Shall I paste that quote of yours?
Perhaps you should just let the mind of fultz3 go
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#93
Do you actually follow what I am saying?
There used to be two compartments. There are no two compartments anymore.
How about you saying that Paradise is in Hades? Shall I paste that quote of yours?
Perhaps you should just let the mind of fultz3 go
I do listen to what you say, why do you think I keep tellig you that you change your mind to often to keep track of. If I said that then post the whole post. I will clarifty it now: Paradise WAS in Hades but IS now in Heaven. But if I said that then post it and I will clarify it.

P.S. are you trying to draw attention away when you keep saying "the mind of fultz3". You seem to forget that salvation is offered to the living, not the dead, especially the wicked dead. Pehaps, instead of being offended by 'the mind of Christ', you should pray and ask God if salvation is/was offered to the dead, if so, then let us go and party like it is 1999.

Were they of Noah's day given 120 years to change their ways? Apparently they did not change their ways. If one was in hell and a savior came, all but the most stupidest of them would deny him faith to excape their lving hell.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#94
I rest my case with you. Someone else will hopefully take this up with you.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#95
I rest my case with you. Someone else will hopefully take this up with you.
Instead of quoting some dodgy websites study and doing plagiarism study the scriptures yourself and make your own mind
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#96
a loving God would not knowingly create people who He knew would be going to Hell from the get go. Right?
Not a single person is predestined to hell.
There is misinterpretation of some scriptures though which is what Calvinism is about.
Take a look at threads on Calvinism and Arminianism
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#97
Instead of quoting some dodgy websites study and doing plagiarism study the scriptures yourself and make your own mind
I have, but would you accepted it? So, instead, I gave a neutral study which came to the same conclusion: Shoel is Hebrew and used in the OT. Hades is Greek and is used in the NT. Since they both mean the abode of the dead, then apparently, by the change of the languages used in the OT and NT, then they are two names for the same place.

Since they are the same name for the same place, then separating them would cause one to say that Jesus did not only go to the righteous dead of the Law but that He also went to preach the Gospel to the wicked dead.

Now, this to any Christian would present a delimma. If the Gospel was preached to the wicked death to receive salvation, then Christ would also have to return to the wicked abode of the dead to offer those who pertake of the second death a change for salvation, seeing that it would only be fair.

But, we are told that those who pertake of the second death will have an adverse sentencting of an EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the PRESENCE of the Lord. So then, if the wicked of the NT shall not receive salvation from their condemnation, how then did the wicked dead of the OT receive salvation, when salvation is offered to the living.

The only conclusion to this madness is that which is called Universal Salvation, seeing that those who were wicked in the OT were giving a free ticked out of their condemnation.

Since you are set in this destruction of giving the wicked dead salvation, my words are not to you but to those who would hear you and believe that we are offered salvation after death.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#98
What makes you so sure that the website you referred to is the absolute truth? Why do you have so much blind faith in it? what a biased attitude to start with!


If you studied 1 Pet 3:18-19 you would realize that Jesus preached in hell to disobedient spirits and disobedient spirits must be wicked people


If you studied in Greek the parable about rich man and Lazarus you would realize that Abraham Bosom and Hades are two separate entities

But because you don’t study any of it you prefer to utter religious statements
Since you are set in this destruction of giving the wicked dead salvation
That’s a typical example of baseless brainwashed religious statement from you
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#99
What makes you so sure that the website you referred to is the absolute truth? Why do you have so much blind faith in it? what a biased attitude to start with! -- I told you. Listen: I have done the same study on Sheol, Hades, Hell, etc.. and came up with the same. I see that Hades is used in the NT. I see that Sheol is used in the OT. I see where Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom. I see where He who ascended also descended. The bias started when it was said that the wicked dead received salvation. But, yet, we the living, must make that choice now.


If you studied 1 Pet 3:18-19 you would realize that Jesus preached in hell to disobedient spirits and disobedient spirits must be wicked people -- Did He preach (evangelize) the Gospel or did He go and make a proclamation (heralded) to the disobedient? Knowing that the righteous were in Paradise, could He have not proclaim the message He had while in Paradise? Suppose the wicked received the Gospel along with the righteous dead, what then was the purpose of the Law? Why even fulfill it when one knew that they were going to receive a Messiah one way or another? This then leads one to ask, why then believe in Christ now as a Christian, when the wicked dead are given the Gospel as their deliverance from condemnation? Was the Gospel also preached to the wicked dead from Sodom and Gomorrah, seeing that they were there when Jesus was to have preached the Gospel to those wicked from Noah's time? Would it not be a fool who would have denied a Messiah from their averse sentencing? If the Gospel was preached to the wicked dead, I can rest assured that not one would have said they would want to stay behind in outer darkness voided of any goodness if they were offered deliverance. Would one turn down a pardon from prison?


If you studied in Greek the parable about rich man and Lazarus you would realize that Abraham Bosom and Hades are two separate entities -- yes and they were separated by a gulf. Did He release the righteous dead from the Law or the wicked dead who walked as Cain in the land of Nun? You see: salvation is a possession of the righteous, not the wicked.

But because you don’t study any of it you prefer to utter religious statements -- and are you here behind me while I study? How do you know what I have or have not done? Is this deflection?

That’s a typical example of baseless brainwashed religious statement from you -- says who? I have told all that Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek and they both mean: the abode of the dead. I am not the one trying to deliver salvation to the wicked and give hope of future deliverance to the living wicked. Second death means exactly what it says: EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD. If it is everlasting, then there shall be no end to it. If it is a destruction, then that ability to be presented before the Lord has been destroyed (ruined).

How then is it possible for the wicked dead to receive salvation, if it is not even in reach for the living wicked:

Psa 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
 
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chesser

Guest
Heheh.
But as a serious answer, I would say no, because the grave and the concept of death are both cast into the lake of fire before anything else except the beast and false prophet.
Actually, death will be the last enemy destroyed