Holidays - Biblical versus non-biblical

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L

Lost_sheep

Guest
#21
One thing I found is that the more I look into the Bible, the more I end up looking into history as well. I'm never going to be the type that is simply satisfied with accepting something I am reading as truth, so I ask questions, dig up articles, read through books and basically make my decision whether or not to accept the validity of a particular item to be 1000x more difficult.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#22
One thing I found is that the more I look into the Bible, the more I end up looking into history as well. I'm never going to be the type that is simply satisfied with accepting something I am reading as truth, so I ask questions, dig up articles, read through books and basically make my decision whether or not to accept the validity of a particular item to be 1000x more difficult.
The bible is basically His-story.
Hopefully though when you compare discrepencies between Scripture history and Church history you go with Scripture.
 
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L

Lost_sheep

Guest
#23
No, not always. Remember, I'm not a Christian, so I don't consider the Bible to be "infallible". I go with whatever source seems more accurate and has more evidence to back it up. I can't help but do that. I am working on a PhD in Ag. and Biosystems Engineering, so I don't just accept anything without researching it. Secular thinking.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
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#24
Okay then, let me ask this. Would it be more appropriate to make "Easter" be on the Sunday of Passover since that's when the resurrection happened? What about Christmas? There's no proof whatsoever in anything I found that the Christ child was born on the 25th of December.

I might seem like I am picking nits, but these are some of the things about Christianity that get under my skin and make it very, very difficult to move forward. Don't even get me started on 10 commandments versus 613 commandments - that one makes my head hurt too.
There is no law that says Christians have to celebrate any Holiday, at least not in Democratic societies.
I dont understand why you are so hung up about this particular issue. What none Christians do is up to them. As for
the 613 commandments well unless you are an orthodox Jew I cant see why you are worrying about this either. Truth is that even Jews haven't observed them all since 70 AD because about a third of them cannot be practiced without the Temple and Priesthood being in place.. Apart from that we are under the New Covenant anyway so why get hung up over these issues.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
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#25
I would agree to this but add that I am not a fan of the secular consumer side of Christmas and Easter. I don't like the whole santa and easter bunny thing we teach to children. Maybe it's a personal conviction, but I see it as idolatry, not to mention lying to our kids.
We live in a secular society. We are not forced to go along with everyone else. Personally Santa and Easter Bunnies
donr bother me at all. What does bother me is the some of of TV and Films both children and adults are exposed to all year round.
 
K

Kaycie

Guest
#26
Those first holidays are under the old covenant, not the new. It is ok to celebrate like someone's birthday, as long as you are not sinning, and not telling people they have to or they won't go to heaven.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#27
We live in a secular society. We are not forced to go along with everyone else. Personally Santa and Easter Bunnies
donr bother me at all. What does bother me is the some of of TV and Films both children and adults are exposed to all year round.
I haven't had my TV on in a couple of years now. The other day I went to see my mom and dad and they had their TV on. I was appalled at some of the programs being advertised. Even the commercials were filthy.
 
L

Lost_sheep

Guest
#28
There is no law that says Christians have to celebrate any Holiday, at least not in Democratic societies.
I dont understand why you are so hung up about this particular issue. What none Christians do is up to them. As for
the 613 commandments well unless you are an orthodox Jew I cant see why you are worrying about this either. Truth is that even Jews haven't observed them all since 70 AD because about a third of them cannot be practiced without the Temple and Priesthood being in place.. Apart from that we are under the New Covenant anyway so why get hung up over these issues.
I am "hung up" on this issue because I am curious about it and need to have my questions answered. It's too bad you felt my questions weren't worth your time. You probably should have just not replied at all instead of trying to make me feel foolish for asking something I am genuinely curious about.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#29
God gave Moses those extra laws and rituals because they rejected God speaking directly to them. They wanted Moses as a go between, they refused to stop worshiping idols.

They all died in the wilderness and only the children born in the wilderness were allowed to cross Jordan (the two scouts being an exception)

It's different now because God looks for a people with humble hearts who are willing to love the world as He does.
 
Jan 15, 2011
736
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#30
When we look at Holy Days of God in the OT, we speak about the major feasts given by God to His people Israel
For the NT Church they are important for spiritual understanding when it comes to Christ's ministry. The Spring feasts and Summer feast have been fulfilled to the day in Christ! The fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled.

Are we called to observe the feasts in the New Covenant? Not by the letter, but it is good for us to understand the prophetic significance of the feasts as they relate to Christ.

As to the modern day "holidays" created and practiced by the majority of Christendom today? Nope, not asked of us to do them. I read in an earlier post that someone stated that the angels celebrated Christ's birth. However, while they were indeed celebrating the completion of prophecy, was it a birthday celebration? That's hard to say as the only time we really see anything about birthdays being celebrated in the bible is found in Job. In addition all the nativity scenes with the "three" kings are not biblical as they met the young boy in the house. The bible doesn't even say three kings, but we know there were three gifts given. More specifically they were used as a funeral annointing for a king. Biblical evidence points to Christ being born in the fall based on the service of Zachariah's father as a levite in the order of Abijah. After his service, Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist. 6 months later, Mary conceived Jesus. Adding 9 months puts His birth closer to September/October. Why the timing around Saturnalia is used really baffles me. The argument that it was used to offset and "reclaim" Saturnalia doesn't do much to explain as some of those traditions are now used today and God explicitly says not to learn those ways.

We know for a fact that Christ died on Passover to fulfill the feast of Passover to the day on the 14th of Nisan. We also know for a fact that Christ rose again three days and nights later with the understanding that the Jewish day ends at sundown. Are we called to hold an annual celebration? I know that when we partake of the Lord's Supper we do it in remembrance of Him and proclaim His death until He comes again.

As we study the origin of how these "holidays" came about (not JUST Alexander Hislop sparkman), we really do need to just look at what the Scriptures say and how God asks us to worship Him and His truth. Honestly, if the apostles didn't need to celebrate them at the created times we have today... is it really necessary? If we do celebrate it... wouldn't it be better to choose a time closer to the actual event? For example, for the calendar year of 2016, Easter is celebrated at the end of March, while Passover is celebrated at the end of April. Since we know that Jesus died on Passover from the bible, why are people celebrating it in March? Just some food for thought.
 
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S

sparkman

Guest
#31
When we look at Holy Days of God in the OT, we speak about the major feasts given by God to His people Israel
For the NT Church they are important for spiritual understanding when it comes to Christ's ministry. The Spring feasts and Summer feast have been fulfilled to the day in Christ! The fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled.

Are we called to observe the feasts in the New Covenant? Not by the letter, but it is good for us to understand the prophetic significance of the feasts as they relate to Christ.

As to the modern day "holidays" created and practiced by the majority of Christendom today? Nope, not asked of us to do them. I read in an earlier post that someone stated that the angels celebrated Christ's birth. However, while they were indeed celebrating the completion of prophecy, was it a birthday celebration? That's hard to say as the only time we really see anything about birthdays being celebrated in the bible is found in Job. In addition all the nativity scenes with the "three" kings are not biblical as they met the young boy in the house. The bible doesn't even say three kings, but we know there were three gifts given. More specifically they were used as a funeral annointing for a king. Biblical evidence points to Christ being born in the fall based on the service of Zachariah's father as a levite in the order of Abijah. After his service, Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist. 6 months later, Mary conceived Jesus. Adding 9 months puts His birth closer to September/October. Why the timing around Saturnalia is used really baffles me. The argument that it was used to offset and "reclaim" Saturnalia doesn't do much to explain as some of those traditions are now used today and God explicitly says not to learn those ways.

We know for a fact that Christ died on Passover to fulfill the feast of Passover to the day on the 14th of Nisan. We also know for a fact that Christ rose again three days and nights later with the understanding that the Jewish day ends at sundown. Are we called to hold an annual celebration? I know that when we partake of the Lord's Supper we do it in remembrance of Him and proclaim His death until He comes again.

As we study the origin of how these "holidays" came about (not JUST Alexander Hislop sparkman), we really do need to just look at what the Scriptures say and how God asks us to worship Him and His truth. Honestly, if the apostles didn't need to celebrate them at the created times we have today... is it really necessary? If we do celebrate it... wouldn't it be better to choose a time closer to the actual event? For example, for the calendar year of 2016, Easter is celebrated at the end of March, while Passover is celebrated at the end of April. Since we know that Jesus died on Passover from the bible, why are people celebrating it in March? Just some food for thought.
We know that the day after the crucifixion was a weekly Sabbath...this is not even a question for me. It was also a high day; the first day of Unleavened Bread. He was resurrected on the first day of the week.

The word "Sabbath" in this verse is sabbaton, and it has a weekly context. In fact, it is translated "week" seven times in the New Testament. The first day of the week, for example, is "mia sabbaton".

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

See word study on verse:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/19/31/t_conc_1016031

See how Sabbath is used:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4521&t=KJV

See how Sabbath is translated "week":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/28/1/t_conc_957001

The explanation I was taught as an Armstrongite was that the word "Sabbath" could also be used in regards to a high day, and it was used in that manner a FEW times in the Old Testament, but the Greek word sabbaton has a weekly context.

The argument against a Friday to Sunday crucifixion/resurrection relies ONLY on Matthew 12:40 and the understanding that they have in regards to this. Bible scholars view this "three days and three nights" wording to be an emphatic way of expressing the time period.

I am not going to reject church history over one verse which doesn't fit the facts the way I would like to see them, especially from individuals who are insinuating that the rest of Christianity is modified paganism. I spent a decade listening to ignoramuses making such claims.

Regarding other elements of "paganism", the supposed association with Lent and "weeping for Tammuz" is bogus...this pagan custom was observed at the end of summer and not in the spring prior to Easter. Another common claim is that the men facing the sun in Ezekiel 8:16 regarded the sunrise services..again, bogus..the women came to the tomb early Sunday morning and found it empty. I've heard Hosea 3:1 being used to describe hot cross buns as well..some more Hislop stuff.

Name your other sources, besides Hislop. Come on..let's hear them..Hebrew Roots guys? Armstrongites? Know where they got their stuff? Hislop. Was Hislop trained in Babylonian history? No. Nor could he reason very well.

He tries to relate all pagan religion to the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis, Nimrod's wife. Since they lived centuries apart, I bet they really had a hard time getting together to reproduce and produce Tammuz :)

His reasoning was disjointed and fallacious. I could prove anything using his logic.

Bill wears a red shirt and blue jeans.
Bob wears a red shirt and khakis.
Robert wears a green shirt and khakis.

Conclusion: Robert is Bill.

That is how bad his logic was. It's hilarious when you see this syllogism but that was his methodology.

Additionally, he was not an expert on Babylonian history and religion, so he had no credentials. His reasoning was futile.

I'd suggest that you consider my argument above..that the word sabbaton has a weekly context, and that the facts fit together very well with regards to the traditional view, except for Matthew 12:40, which can be explained by the emphatic expression view. Even if you don't agree, you should acknowledge that the explanations are reasonable enough to respect the other viewpoint rather than slandering your fellow Christians by claiming they are observing modified paganism. In addition, church history carries significant weight on issues like this, especially when the alleged discrepancies have some reasonable explanation.

I'd really like to see your other sources of information regarding Easter being pagan, though. Be aware that I will check out their associations and credibility.
 
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JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
113
#32
You should read the book called Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It explains the difference between the New Covenant and Old Covenant very well. As an ex Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat guy, the book helped a lot.

By the way, if you think Torah observing is the right way to go, I'd suggest that you budget a lot of money for furniture if you are married or have a daughter. Anything they sit upon during their menstrual cycle is considered to be unclean and needs to be thrown out. As well, you need to make them live outside of the home during this period, so you might need a tent. I'd also suggest that you make every woman in your church wear a T Shirt or some indication that she is menstruating so that you don't accidentally shake her hand and become unclean.

My point? Even Torah observers don't observe the full Torah. It is pick and choose, cafeteria plan Torah observance :)

The Old Covenant was given to a specific people under a theonomy in a specific land during a specific time period...it made sense for them at that time. It also had an expiration date, which is specified in Galatians 3 as being when Christ came. It ended at his death.

The Old Covenant does have spiritual and moral principles that apply, though. The specific applications to the nation of Israel don't apply, but the spiritual and moral principles are enduring. So a Spirit-led Christian can discern moral direction from them. Many of the commandments were ceremonial and ritualistic "shadows and types" which are not applicable anymore, including Sabbaths, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws, animal sacrifices and physical circumcision.
Thank God for hysterectomy's I can sit where ever I want and I will never have to wear your T Shirt.....
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#33
I was under the impression that Christmas was a conglomeration of the Winter Solstice and Saturnalia bright into vogue by the Catholic church to make Christianity more palatable to the pagans in the Roman Empire after Christianity was deemed the "official" religion of the empire.

I know very well what Christmas is "supposed" to signify, but where in the Bible does it say we are to honor the birth of Jesus? His death and resurrection, sure I can see that, but since he was crucified during Passover, wouldn't Passover be the appropriate time to observe and get rid of "Easter" which is Spring Equinox observation?
There's a word in the Bible -- Agape. It is really a Greek word. Back when Paul first used it, it was a very obscure word for love. It's to the point no scholar knows what kind of love it meant back then. I suspect even back then no one knew what kind of love. (And by kind, philos is a brotherly love, eros is a sexual love, so the Greeks really did have words for different kinds of love.) So Paul used it for the love between God and Man.

He swiped it and brought a new meaning to it.

Same thing with Christmas and Easter. They might well have originally been pagan holidays, but back when Christians started taking it up as holidays about God they were hiding to keep from being killed, so they swiped it.

It's not really fully stealing, because no one owned the words or the holidays and anyone can use any word or any day to celebrate anything they want.

So when I celebrate Christmas and Easter, I know something of the history. More important -- I know who and why I'm celebrating.

Jewish feasts? Meh, just not into them. (I also don't like sheep, goat, dandelions, and I'm not really into the taste of unleavened flat bread. Sweet breads, sure, but the flatbread is boring and tough on the teeth. lol) Nothing personal. I also ignore MLK Day, Valentine's Day, and Halloween. I'm not into telling other people they can't celebrate them though. Can't really come up with a good enough reason to stop either, and I don't care enough to try.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#34
Okay then, let me ask this. Would it be more appropriate to make "Easter" be on the Sunday of Passover since that's when the resurrection happened? What about Christmas? There's no proof whatsoever in anything I found that the Christ child was born on the 25th of December.

I might seem like I am picking nits, but these are some of the things about Christianity that get under my skin and make it very, very difficult to move forward. Don't even get me started on 10 commandments versus 613 commandments - that one makes my head hurt too.
Have you caught on yet? Jesus IS our Passover in all sense of that statement. He did for us what the Passover did for the Israelites.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#35
???Really? Interesting. I'll dig through tonight, but mind giving me the Cliff Notes version as to why his soul hates them?
Because they were celebrating foreign gods.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#36
When we look at Holy Days of God in the OT, we speak about the major feasts given by God to His people Israel
For the NT Church they are important for spiritual understanding when it comes to Christ's ministry. The Spring feasts and Summer feast have been fulfilled to the day in Christ! The fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled.

Are we called to observe the feasts in the New Covenant? Not by the letter, but it is good for us to understand the prophetic significance of the feasts as they relate to Christ.

As to the modern day "holidays" created and practiced by the majority of Christendom today? Nope, not asked of us to do them. I read in an earlier post that someone stated that the angels celebrated Christ's birth. However, while they were indeed celebrating the completion of prophecy, was it a birthday celebration? That's hard to say as the only time we really see anything about birthdays being celebrated in the bible is found in Job. In addition all the nativity scenes with the "three" kings are not biblical as they met the young boy in the house. The bible doesn't even say three kings, but we know there were three gifts given. More specifically they were used as a funeral annointing for a king. Biblical evidence points to Christ being born in the fall based on the service of Zachariah's father as a levite in the order of Abijah. After his service, Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist. 6 months later, Mary conceived Jesus. Adding 9 months puts His birth closer to September/October. Why the timing around Saturnalia is used really baffles me. The argument that it was used to offset and "reclaim" Saturnalia doesn't do much to explain as some of those traditions are now used today and God explicitly says not to learn those ways.

We know for a fact that Christ died on Passover to fulfill the feast of Passover to the day on the 14th of Nisan. We also know for a fact that Christ rose again three days and nights later with the understanding that the Jewish day ends at sundown. Are we called to hold an annual celebration? I know that when we partake of the Lord's Supper we do it in remembrance of Him and proclaim His death until He comes again.

As we study the origin of how these "holidays" came about (not JUST Alexander Hislop sparkman), we really do need to just look at what the Scriptures say and how God asks us to worship Him and His truth. Honestly, if the apostles didn't need to celebrate them at the created times we have today... is it really necessary? If we do celebrate it... wouldn't it be better to choose a time closer to the actual event? For example, for the calendar year of 2016, Easter is celebrated at the end of March, while Passover is celebrated at the end of April. Since we know that Jesus died on Passover from the bible, why are people celebrating it in March? Just some food for thought.
The major thing that you seem to be INCAPABLE of doing is looking at certain issues and realizing that another person who is Spirit-led can look at the same facts and arrive at a different conclusion. Instead, you insist that your view on the topic is the only legitimate one.

That's the same mindset that I had as an Armstrongite.

I've seen the topic from both sides, and weighed the evidence carefully, and I am persuaded that the Friday crucifixion - Sunday resurrection is reasonable given all the evidence. You may make a different determination.

However, on this issue and some other topics, you dogmatically insist that your view is THE TRUTH and the other view has no reasonable basis. And, this mentality is the same as the Armstrongites that I hung out with for a decade.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
113
#37
By the way I wouldn't agree with all the explanations of other individuals on this thread. I find a lot of them get things confused concerning the Sabbath, Festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws. Even if I agree with the conclusions, their explanations are faulty.
The major thing that you seem to be INCAPABLE of doing is looking at certain issues and realizing that another person who is Spirit-led can look at the same facts and arrive at a different conclusion. Instead, you insist that your view on the topic is the only legitimate one.

That's the same mindset that I had as an Armstrongite.

I've seen the topic from both sides, and weighed the evidence carefully, and I am persuaded that the Friday crucifixion - Sunday resurrection is reasonable given all the evidence. You may make a different determination.

However, on this issue and some other topics, you dogmatically insist that your view is THE TRUTH and the other view has no reasonable basis. And, this mentality is the same as the Armstrongites that I hung out with for a decade.
Well at least it is good for a laugh....On one post everyone else is faulty but in your other post your view is THE TRUTH.....yep this Blond is laughing....
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#38
One thing I found is that the more I look into the Bible, the more I end up looking into history as well. I'm never going to be the type that is simply satisfied with accepting something I am reading as truth, so I ask questions, dig up articles, read through books and basically make my decision whether or not to accept the validity of a particular item to be 1000x more difficult.
Check out Alfred Edersheim's books.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#39
No, not always. Remember, I'm not a Christian, so I don't consider the Bible to be "infallible". I go with whatever source seems more accurate and has more evidence to back it up. I can't help but do that. I am working on a PhD in Ag. and Biosystems Engineering, so I don't just accept anything without researching it. Secular thinking.
Actually, that's exactly why you'll go with crossnote's advice. You'll know better than to accept we should genuflect and make the sign of the cross because you'll find when they became a thing, while the Bible doesn't talk about it. :)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#40
Thank God for hysterectomy's I can sit where ever I want and I will never have to wear your T Shirt.....
Meh. Menopause was easier for reasons not to have to wear The T-shirt. lol