How do dinosaurs fit into the Creaton story?

trofimus · Feb 20, 2018

Gen 1:2 And the earthH776 wasH1961 without form,H8414 and void;H922 and darknessH2822 was uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the deep.H8415 And the SpiritH7307 of GodH430 movedH7363 uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the waters.H4325

H1961
הָיָה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Where is this from?

eternally-gratefull · Feb 20, 2018

oldhermit said:

Who gave them the name brontosour? Lol. My point being, Adam named it, we do not know what he named it, but scripture says he did, so we should believe scripture.

Deade · Feb 20, 2018

Evolution Debunked

In 1859, Charles Darwin (1809-1882) published a work: "The Origin of Species" that expounded the theory of evolution. He claims that all higher animal forms were, at one time, lower life forms. They were single celled amoeba that somehow changed into dogs, cows and even people. This was not a completely new theory; it had surfaced many times before in published works. Aristotle had wondered if nature had a specific reason for certain actions (Physics, Book II, ch.8). In applying this to the developmental stages of parts of the body, Darwin deduced they came about by accident (spontaneous organization). The more favorable changes were preserved, and the less desirable ones abandoned. An example was given referring to improperly shaped teeth. Other scientists wrote about, or taught, the observed changes that naturally took place in certain species. The historical sketch of "The Origin of Species" makes reference to some 34 authors Darwin had drawn from for his work. The significance of Darwin's work lies in its completeness, and its acceptance by many modern scientific scholars.

The Bible refutes this assumption. "And God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: And it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: And God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1:20-25). Notice that the Bible states every animal was made "after his kind." The natural order of things will not allow the intermixing of species of different types, even through artificial insemination.

This is not to say that Darwin didn't notice something going on, in nature, that one could call evolution. Many have observed smaller changes within groups they call micro-evolution; I prefer to call it adaption. We have observed cave fish losing their eyes after being in darkness for generations. Animals have radically changed their diets after being separated from their normal food supply; certain grazing bovines (cattle) would starve on the same fodder that other bovines (longhorns and bison) do quite well on. We need to reinvestigate some of Darwin's classifications of species, such as classifying apes with man as primates. There are similarities, but the differences are even greater. The mental differences, between man and ape, are far more necessary to be considered than the physical differences. Indeed, mentally we were created in God's own image. "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them" (Genesis 1:27). Could it be that many of our social ills are the result of academia telling many generations, of our children, that they are mere animals.

Deade · Feb 20, 2018

trofimus said:

Are you not familiar with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible? Those are Strong's Hebrew reference numbers [ie. H1961.]

trofimus · Feb 20, 2018

posthuman said:

I do not suppose that there are any atheistic evolutionists here, so its not so relevant

As Christians, we can of course see God´s plan and provision in anything in history, let it be evolution, let it be anything else.

oldhermit · Feb 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

I would imagine that he was classifying species, dog, cow, cat, bird, sheep, etc, etc... rather than calling one Jim, another George, and another Fred.

trofimus · Feb 20, 2018

Deade said:

Concordance is not a lexicon. You need a lexicon of ancient Hebrew language.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 20, 2018

As far as the creation record goes. If one looks at genesis, The writer makes an observation of what happened, Then he repeats the observation,. Yet gives more detail. Then he does it again. There is a specific language for what is done, but it escapes me now. I hope others have heard of it, and can share.

to me

gen 1: 1 is God making a statement of fact. God created the heavens and earth.

Gen 1:2 is the origional State of creation. Ie, in the first instant of creation. The earth stood in a state where it was void and without form.

Gen 1: 3 forward shows how God took this formless earth, and the universe, and created it (aged of course) so that it could be used by man, whom he was going to create.

Man was created as an adult or at most, a young man. The universe what’s shaped so that in then moment man was created, he could use the universe (ie, no matter how far each star was./ the stars were there to be used by man, Thus the moment the star was created,. The light already reached earth. God did nto have to wait millions of years fort the stars to show their light until he created men. Our god is an infinite God who can do whatever he wants, and has the power to do it)

Deade · Feb 20, 2018

According to my Word Thesaurus lexicon = dictionary = concordance. You tell other Bible scholars that you don't consider Strong's valid. I can hear them laughing. Strong's take all our Bible back to the original Hebrew (or NT Greek) word for word. This is done without anyone's definition input to cloud understanding. It doesn't get anymore pure than that. Lexicons and dictionaries can put someone's opinion into the reference.

posthuman · Feb 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

well it's not like floods and mudslides never happen outside of a global flood. you wouldn't expect to find lots of them, because it requires special circumstances. but if those circumstances were universal & concurrent, wouldn't we expect to find zillions of fossils? and why wouldn't i expect to find all kinds of animals all mixed together, if they were all corpses rolling around together at the bottom of great ocean currents? do we ever find fish and stegosaurs and humans and woolly mammoths and trilobites and cows and apatasaurs all mixed up in one single-layer fossil bed? because that's what makes sense to me if all these things lived together at the same time and were all drowned & fossilized together in a single event over the course of a number of months.
volcanic ash and other boundary layers? i'm not well-studied about this, but as far as i know what we see in geology doesn't really match up with what you'd get if you shook up a jar full of different kinds of sediment and let them all settle into layers, and while this may be true of sandstone, isn't it not how other kinds of rock are formed?

((i do believe in the flood, btw -- just not seeing how it explains strata))

trofimus · Feb 20, 2018

Deade said:

Concordance just lists what translators used in some specific translation.

For example Strong´s concordance just lists how KJV translators translated that word (be it wrong or right, does not matter).

While lexicon tries to really tell us what the word can mean in the original language.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concordance

Deade · Feb 20, 2018

Trofimus, what don't you understand about the following sentence.
Strong's take all our Bible back to the original Hebrew (or NT Greek) word for word.

This has nothing to do with what language it is translated to. KJV gives English speakers access to the original words as we understand them.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 20, 2018

posthuman said:

The scientists can do a better job than me in explaining, I will look it up and see what they say so I do not get it wrong,.

from answers in genesis

this is one view. I have read other views that prety much line up with this sort 0of reasoning.

Pre-Flood Single-Cell Fossils. It is hardly surprising that the fossils found in the pre-Flood Chuar Group don’t require catastrophic burial to form. The one-celled organisms in these layers, such as algae that form mounds (called stromatolites), required calm environmental conditions for burial and fossilization. Even today, algae build these structures, called stromatolites, only in calm conditions.

Shallow Marine Invertebrates of the Seafloor. Trilobites, brachiopods, and other shallow marine invertebrates are the first creatures to be buried in the first sedimentary layers of the Flood—the Tapeats, Bright Angel, and Muav.
Fish. It is not until the Temple Butte Limestone that fish remains are found. Note, however, that the marine invertebrates are found buried at almost every level in this fossil record. This is consistent with the ocean waters rising and washing across the continents during the Flood, carrying these marine creatures with the sediments in which they were buried.8
Land Plants and Reptile Footprints. Next note that the first land plants are found buried in the Supai Group, where the fossilized footprints of amphibians and reptiles are also found.
Fossils of Land Vertebrates. Interestingly, the first fossilized bodies of land vertebrates (reptiles in the Moenkopi Formation) are not found buried until much higher than the footprints. Dinosaurs are found even higher, in the Moenave Formation. Mammals aren’t found buried until right at the top of this sequence of rock layers.
Remember, this is a burial during the Flood. As the Flood waters inundated the continents, the shallow marine invertebrates were first swept from the pre-Flood ocean floors and buried on the continents in rapid succession. After the waters rose over the continents, they progressively encountered different ecological zones at different elevations, which were inundated in rapid succession.9[SUP], [/SUP]10

[h=2]Evolutionary Order or Flood Sequence? [/h]The conventional explanation of the fossil order is progressive evolutionary changes over long periods of time. But this explanation runs into a huge challenge. Evolution predicts that new groups of creatures would have arisen in a specific order. But if you compare the order that these creatures first appear in the actual fossil record, as opposed to their theoretical first appearance in the predictions, then over 95% of the fossil record’s “order” can best be described as random.11
On the other hand, if these organisms were buried by the Flood waters, the order of first appearance should be either random, due to the sorting effects of the Flood, or reflect the order of ecological burial. In other words, as the Flood waters rose, they would tend to bury organisms in the order that they were encountered, so the major groups should appear in the fossil record according to where they lived, and not when they lived. This is exactly what we find, including this fossil record within the Grand Canyon—Grand Staircase.

You can also see another interesting pattern that confirms what we would expect from a global Flood. You would expect many larger animals to survive the Flood waters initially, leaving their tracks in the accumulating sediment layers as they tried to escape the rising waters. But eventually they would become exhausted, die, and get buried.
What do we find? In the Tapeats Sandstone are fossilized tracks of trilobites scurrying across the sand, but fossilized remains of their bodies do not appear until higher up, at the transition into the Bright Angel Shale (Figure 4).
Similarly, we find fossilized footprints of amphibians and reptiles in places that are much lower (in the Supai Group, Hermit Shale, and Coconino Sandstone, Figure 5) than the fossils of their bodies (in the Moenkopi Formation).

[h=2]Conclusion [/h]At the Grand Canyon—Grand Staircase strata sequence, both the column of sedimentary rock layers and the fossils are observable and real. The stacked layers throughout this region appear in a definite order. They contain fossils in a recognizable order, too, reflecting the order in which the organisms were buried during the Flood.
Indeed, the pattern of first appearances doesn’t fit the expected evolutionary order but instead is consistent with the rising Flood waters, as they inundated the continents. Furthermore, even the pattern of finding tracks before bodies is consistent with creatures surviving in the initial Flood waters before eventually perishing.
So the geologic column and the fossils’ order and patterns agree with the biblical framework of earth history. The observable evidence in God’s world totally agrees with what we read in God’s Word.

gotime · Feb 20, 2018

trofimus said:

Yes indeed the world has a history.

The question is which one?

Evolution is based on the idea that there is no God that started it.

The Bible version is based on a miraculous event.

The issue here is how data is interpreted. People go on about people interpreting the bible in different ways, Well scientific data is the same. The bias or world view is what determines how the data is interpreted.

Evolution is not the result of simple data study, it is the result of data studied with a particular world view in mind.

Evolution assumes long history thus it reads all data within that context favouring any study that gives this impression and dismissing any legitimate study that shows otherwise. The world view decides not the data.

So the problem is one can not compare evolution world views with Biblical world views. they are two totally different views that both accept the raw data that scientific research has given us.

They disagree on the method in which that Data is put together to make a whole. Both do so with their world view as the basis of interpretation. Thus both accept the raw data but have two very different outcomes.

The real question is which one holds water when looked at on its own ground. Which one makes more sense internally.

In other words examine each in their own right not comparing one to the other.

When one does this Evolution comes up with many internal problems. It also becomes clear that not all evidence is taken into account because there is evidence in study that points to intelligent design.

But when one does it with the bible picture there is no issue. The data lines up with the bible world view.

trofimus · Feb 20, 2018

Deade said:

I understand your sentence. But it is not true.

trofimus · Feb 20, 2018

gotime said:

Have you heard of theistic evolution?

Its a view that everything evolves but God is the creator and guides it.

It combines the facts we can see in nature and explains why evolution did so many improbable turns.

tanakh · Feb 20, 2018

Judging by the size of some of them I would say very tightly

gotime · Feb 20, 2018

trofimus said:

Yes I have heard of it, But theistic evolution does not line up with the bible world view.

What it actually does is try to combine a godless world view with a God world view.

The problem with this in my view is that its pure speculation at best.

Shc · Feb 20, 2018

star said:

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
"

Here is my point of view.

Before day 1 god had already created heaven and Earth.

.[/QUOTE]
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Before those days from 1-7,.Earth existed in a form different than we know now and a different atmosphere. So during those times dinosaurs existed for a while and god caused the Mass extinction of it because he was unhappy with all the darkness in the so called Earth.

After those days of darkness he began the process of reforming the Earth as we now know today which is explained in day 1-7.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 20, 2018

gotime said:

You can not read gen 1 and believe in theistic evolution without making genesis 1 an allegory and not a literal event

I forgot he was a theistic evolutionist..

How do dinosaurs fit into the Creaton story?

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