I am curious

followjesus · Feb 7, 2018

amen !

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

amos 9 : "Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

followjesus · Feb 7, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Pauls main opponents Like Jesus main opponents were the jewish teachers of the Mosaic Law. Like Jesus paul Knew when He was sent to Jerusalem, suffering and persecutions awaited Him. for many of the same Reason Jesus was hated, they hated Paul. Here was formerly Saul, an ardent zealous pharisee, who claims Himself blameless and faultless according to the law. set to completely stomp out this herecy called " the way" those followers of the blaspheming heretic Jesus of nazareth" ....

on His way to capture and imprison many of them, them steps in the Lord Jesus to show His Power and the power of The Gospel to take a man set dead against Jesus, "the worst of sinners" < His own words, and change them fundamentally at the core of us our hearts and minds. Paul is a testimony of Jesus truth and Power that works in us to change things we cant, and make us who we werent

Angela53510 · Feb 7, 2018

razor17 said:

I am an egalitarian and a pastor. I believe women can be in ministry and do everything men can do. I base that on my reading of the Greek, which I have studied deeply. So, some wrong translations for sure. Now, some may not agree with me. But, God really led me on a journey, including debating with my Greek prof, who agreed to disagree with me. I have posted about it on CC in the past.

So, in actual fact, there is NOTHING arcane about women in the Bible. Paul (yes, the one you don't like!) clearly says women are equal in Galatians.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus" Gal. 3:28

If you want the information I have put together concerning 1 Tim. 2:12 and many other passages, let me know and I will send it to you via pm.

So, that is just a start. You are wrong about what Paul says about women. He treats women as equals and fellow workers in Christ. See Romans 16, if you want to see the women Paul commends. And Phoebe, is not a "servant" other than in the broad sense in which all ministers of the gospel are. The fact is, every time the word διάκονον (diakonon) is used, it is a leader in a church when it was a man. So, if you have a beef, it is with translation committees, like the KJV, and others that follow in that tradition, like ESV and NET, and NASB (which has the footnote "or deaconess" although there is no such word in Greek!)

"Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea," Romans 16:1 NET

"διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς" Romans 16:1b

I like that HCSB puts this little footnote, concerning the word diakonon:

Romans 16:1Others interpret this term in a technical sense: deacon, or deaconess, or minister, or courier

So, if you are so wrong about what Paul says about women, perhaps you need to start revising your internet opinions learned from false teachers, and figure out what Paul was really saying, instead of reading into the writings of Paul something that is not there, and in fact, destroys the integrity of the Bible.

Or do you need us to go through step by step, what Paul is really saying? My thought is stop watching false teachers on the internet. Well, stop watching all internet teachers, I have never seen them to come out right, with most stuff. Because, if they did have it right, they would have a real church or ministry, or be writing commentaries or legitimately published books, instead of being some kind of loser with no audience, who basically is preying on people like you, who are ignorant of the Word. You therefore condemn a good portion of the New Testament, (either written about Paul, or by Paul) which makes chaos out of the whole of Scripture.

PS. There was a long period of time I read nothing but Paul over and over, because God directed me to do that. (Well, I was reading the rest of the Bible, 3 OT chapters and 1 NT chapter, but I would read the epistles over and over, because that is where God had me!) And I learned so much about how to walk with God. That is what the epistles are about, although some of them were written about church discipline. The point is a church that is having problems is not walking with Christ. So, besides dealing with individual issues, Paul communicates from God, under inspiration, how to walk with God. Which applies to everyone, in those churches and today! It is a good case where you can extend the context from what Paul wrote to the individual churches, to how we are to live today!

For example:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Gal. 5:22-23

These are the verses I have spent years praying about and meditating on, as God led me through each fruit, and I examined my life. How impoverished I would be if those verses didn't exist, because, according to you, and certain internet scammers, Paul was not inspired. Or was not a Jew, married to a Jew?? Seriously Stones, that is the most absurd thing I have read, and that includes all that garbage on the Word Faith thread that people kept posting out of context!

Oh, so many other verses Paul wrote, and what would we do without Romans? Seriously! No Romans!!?!

Wait, have you even read the NT through?

posthuman · Feb 7, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Yes as we see this fellow saying he can freely edit and revise scripture as he pleases, according to whether he personally feels it should be written or not, or written some other way. He makes his own opinion 'god' rather than believing what he reads, and when he does not understand what he reads, he just rejects and replaces it. And he thinks this is wise and good, and why doesn't everyone make their own god for themselves like he does?

Ugh

posthuman · Feb 7, 2018

i appreciate razor's honesty. i really do. He knows his position is going to get thrashed but he gives it anyway, and tries to justify it too, not just post and run. That's admirable quality.

His flag is India, maybe when you come from a culture of Hinduism with 100,000 gods and unreliablly copied Vedas and upanishads, with many divisions and sects, it is natural to treat the Bible this way. It is something he will have to learn, just as all of us have things God will correct in us.

We should strive to be gentle and kind in correction at the same time we reject lies. Lifelong struggle to learn to do that, ain't it? To speak perfectly in love?

More public apologies from me for rudeness and crass. I know i don't have the tact and the long-suffering that i should, and one day will, as He finishes the work

Locutus · Feb 7, 2018

I don't think any apologies are necessary Bones - just look at the loony sources he's given links too.

garee · Feb 7, 2018

posthuman said:

I agree its one of those things where his Spirit witnesses to us he is here working in us to both will and do His good pleasure .The Son of man in his temporal earthy form resisted all veneration as worship. He did not want men worshiping His flesh as if God was a man as us.But a God who draws men to His own self by the light of His living ,abiding Word.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

But also to humbly remind us of Him that it is Him who brings to mind, the things he has taught us.Without Him we can do nothing

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ is the one He sent as the great Apostle of our faith giving rise to the meaning of the word and with Christ the person of the word also.We are brothers and sisters in Christ and do not venerate men seen which some do with the word apostle

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Angela53510 · Feb 7, 2018

posthuman said:

It's nice that you want to give razor the benefit of the doubt, because culturally (and in reality!) he is from India.

But, that is not a good enough excuse for me! When I did my first semester of chaplaincy, the woman chaplain was from India. She was Lutheran. Her father was the head of the Missouri Synod there, her mom the head of the Evangelical Lutherans, before she died. She knew the Bible well, and would never have dreamed of saying something that absurd.

Rachel20, who doesn't come around much, is a solid Christian from India. She would not speculate this kind of absurdity.

Or, Levi, who is mostly in the prayer forum, with whom I was just chatting with today, is another fine example of a strong Christian who doesn't fall for this kind of internet garbage.

No, I think the fault lies in the person. And yes, he did come in here and was "honest," but his honesty was about making converts to his false beliefs.

I guess heresy is just something I can no longer tolerate. Because as much as I disagree on various issues with people in this forum, or their methods of interpretation, I know they do go back to the inspired Word of God to support their views. Razor goes back to some weirdo on the internet. There is a huge difference between the two, I hope you would agree?

stonesoffire · Feb 7, 2018

Locutus said:

yes, that's it.

stonesoffire · Feb 7, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Its an interesting read EG. And you are right. The natural man is bound to works until freed from that curse through Jesus.

followjesus · Feb 7, 2018

yes the point you made about women and men, that again shows us that the Mosaic Law, was not the Law from the beginning. When God mad man, there was both man, and woman, One flesh, equal, the true 50, 50 relationship. as eve was made of adams flesh, so after man, comes from both mens seed, planted in womans flesh. two becoming one flesh as woman was mad of man, man is then made of woman. the ultimate testimony is that we are equally necassary to survive as a race.

the moment woman became subject to man, was when God cursed Her here

Genesuis 3 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

so this is a result of sin and its curse.... if this were already true, it would not have been eves punishment for listening to the serpent,

in the beginning before the fall

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion "

in the beginning, man was King and queen together Under God.there was no need to have a ruler between the two, because neither would have sinned or done wrong unless the serpent intervened. thier nature before they ate the fruit was pure, after it was corrupt and then laws became necassary because both evil and good are now in the population, without law.... evil and strength, and not righteousness would always triumph Like the animal Kingdom.

the law came by sin, the law goes by righteousness. paul has very in depth insight onto the gospel

stonesoffire · Feb 7, 2018

Deade said:

I just started reading the ebook, so I can't answer that yet. Locutus found it available to read apparently without subscribing to the magazine.

I can't remember the website that this member of a previous forum I was on, who spoke against Paul, but I did a search. This isn't it, but the author is against Paul.

https://www.jesuswordsonly.com

Justvto make sure no one misunderstands, I love Paul, and fully believe Jesus chose him to be the 12th apostle.

followjesus · Feb 7, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Honestly i think that some people look at pauls letters as everything. Others Look at paul letters as the same value as any apostle of Jesus Christ. he and they were filled with the Holy Ghost, chosen By Jesus Christ Himself, and commissioned to preach the gospel to the world. the thing is if you remove pauls explainations you then have to remove , Peters, Johns, james....even Jesus because they are all the same things. that would leave a person waiting for the last promise in the prophets to happen...the coming of John the Baptist followed immediately By Jesus Christ.

the Holy spirit is the author of the Bible, whether it was working in Lukes hand, marks Hand, pauls Hand, peters Hand, Johns hand, the words are all of the Holy ghost.

followjesus · Feb 7, 2018

Deade said:

actually He was a Hebrew. Paul was definately a Jew a pharisee, He says He was.

acts 26 "My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee."

philippians 3 " Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

pauls Mother was Jewish, that is what makes the child jewish, and His father apparently was roman, because he was born a citizen and didnt have to purchase it as He says Here

acts 22 " And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? 26When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman. 27Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea. 28And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born."

Paul ultimately is like a samaritan, His mother is Jewish, and most likely when rome took control of Jerusalem, a roman took Her as a wife. because He says He is of the hebrews it means His mother is of that tribe. and because He is a born roman, it means His father is roman, whether jewish convert, or not, blood is of rome being naturally born roman, and naturally born Jew. being edi=ucated in greek and Hebrews language He is a great choice to send with the gospel to both Jew and Gentile.

understanding the law as a pharisee He is the good choice to connect the law and gospel. for Jesus to reach people through paul, that peter may not have been able to comm=unicate with as paul was part of both cultures.

garee · Feb 7, 2018

Twelve is used in a parable as the unseen things of God , yes. But twelve as a special authority as the things of men, no.

I would think the focus would be more on the word twelve as to how it is used in parables, twelve would be the key that binds the Jew and the Gentile, a new creation as one wife or bride of Christ ,the church.And not in respect to ones feet he sends to bring His prophecy as to where he directs it. Its more how beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel. Not how beautiful are their minds or mouths .We have the mind of Christ not that of the apostles

The twelve apostles of the Lamb represent the bride of Christ. She is made up of walls to keep the enemy out and by her twelve gates of the Lamb another description of the same bride as tribes... by which our husband d Christ sends out His gospel into the world , with the tribe of Dan missing replaced by the half tribe Manasseh in that parable.

Both Judas and Dan are used as examples to help us understand what it means to fall backward as if God was bringing down His fiery judgement to protect the Lamb .

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

All those who deny the legitimacy of Paul should publicly tell us that they will also trash more than half the New Testament.

What legitimacy of Paul? His feet that bring the good news? Christ declared if He does not wash our feet with the gospel we have no part with Him. Why would we think of men above that which is written? Is that what you are saying?

If he was sent of God he was a legitimate. Not any less that was Mosses or any prophet who brings the words, as thoughts of another not seen..

I think it’s what happens when one violates one of the laws of interpretation. Adding another meaning to one word can cause division. Christ is not divided we walk by faith (the unseen) the flesh profits for nothing.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word(singular)which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it,(singular) that ye may keep the commandments (plural)of the LORD your God which I command you.

jaybird88 · Feb 7, 2018

of course he was a legit apostle, apostle means messenger and he was for sure a messenger. i think the confusion comes from when people here the word apostle they think the 12 Apostles. the 12 were more than just messengers of Jesus.

pottersclay · Feb 7, 2018

No one could ever endure the hardship and mental anguish that Paul endured and not be a called out one.
Counting it all joy is a statement in it's self.
Not understanding the complexity of pauls audience which were doomed with traditions and lies. Paul walking on a razors edge to bring the truth with love and compassion as he was led by the spirit in a culture that would not think twice in taking his life is even more evidence of who he was in Christ.

posthuman · Feb 7, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Yes

i meant, i was trying to explain to myself how someone could say such things and think they are making sense, and believe they are approaching them to right way, and be a believer. so i told myself, maybe it is a combination of cultural influence he comes out of, and of ignorance/lack of study or good teaching in sound doctrine

Not to justify, but to try to understand where in the world is he coming from and how on earth did he get there?? As you are too. Youtube. Not what one would call a 'scholarly or reliable source'

Angela53510 · Feb 7, 2018

posthuman said:

Exactly! The internet has spawned and propagated more heresies than I ever knew was possible in my early years as a Christian. Back in the days when one read the Bible, and read scholarly books. Well, some of us still do that!

Adstar · Feb 7, 2018

oldhermit said:

Paul was a legitimate Messenger of God and His writings in the Bible are inspired by God..

I am curious

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