I suffer not a woman to teach (over a man) or have authority over a man, but to be...

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So, now we know, don't we, women CAN preach to men, just not first choice :)

  • Yes.

    Votes: 3 50.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 50.0%

  • Total voters
    6
J

Jullianna

Guest
#21
Answer: There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors/preachers. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.

The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority.

There are many “objections” to this view of women in ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek/Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in the passage could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words refers to men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to all men and women, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.

Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women in ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. This objection fails to note some significant factors. First, Deborah was the only female judge among 13 male judges. Huldah was the only female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel—hardly examples of godly female leadership. Most significantly, though, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue. The book of 1 Timothy and the other Pastoral Epistles present a new paradigm for the church—the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves the authority structure for the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).

In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.

Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
(Not sure what happened up there. I must have bumped something on my laptop. :) )
Powemm, very well said. I pray for God's perfect order in the Church. Israel wanted a king, but it was not God's perfect will, was it? God spoke through a donkey in the OT, but I don't think it is His perfect will that we learn from a donkey, do you? Moses permitted divorce because of the hardening of men's hearts, but Jesus said that from the beginning it was not to be so (except in adulterous circumstances), didn't He? Let us humble ourselves to the PERFECT will and order of God in the Church.
 
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#22
Women are to be silent in church meetings. If they have any questions they are to ask their husbands when they get home . For they must be in submission. It is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. 1Cor 14:34&35

Women must follow Sarah's good example and call their husbands 'Master' 1Peter 3:6

Women must not have braided hair, gold or pearls, nor expensive clothes. 1Tim2:9(This would include Jewellry) nor expensive trips to the hairdressers
This will free up more money for their hard working husbands who have to toil hard to support the family.

A woman must learn in quietness and full submission. She cannot teach or have authority over a man, she must be silent 1Tim 2:10
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#23
Of course, one must FIRST, in considering the verses that Paul spoke about women teaching men, the AUDIENCE that he was speaking to. Not all of what Paul says in the Bible was a directed at the Body in general; some, such as that one, were written/spoken to a SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE because of the problems that were going on IN SAID GROUP at that time.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividingthe word of truth.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#24
Women pastors will give men wisdom but only IF the Lord leads them to that appointment, so to speak. 'Course, this is true of men,too. Called, <--this is the operative word. The Spirit calls man to do His work.


You can read Scripture all day long, until you are blue in the face, but IF you are not hearkening to His leading then it's going to be a bleu, blue, cheesy kind of relationship with Him, YOU need to be led by His Spirit, and, ALL truth, not just scripture, but ALL TRUTH of our lives is revealed by Him, which is how we walk, how we talk, how we move, what we should be doing is PRAYING, delving into His words of Scripture and understanding how He LITERALLY moves our lives as we move and do things for His glory. :)

You're right...we need to experience God in order to have an actual relationship with Him. He is dynamic, and active, and vibrant...He is always moving and always working, He is not bound to any book, He is greater then all things. On a side note, that is not to diminish, in any way, the magnitude of the Scriptures...its just to point out that God is actually alive and active in our lives. Today...this very moment...this very second. The thought is breathtaking.
:)


Very simple, eh, hopesprung, very simple, indeed, and, yes, we are to ACCEPT whatever His leading us to is; this is why I get SCARED to DEATH for those who think that the Word will tell them ALL they need to know, for they do not know Him then, because the Word needs flesh to it and OUR LIVES movement, if you will, is HOW we understand the 100% truth of the Word of God :)

Yes, be VERY wary of a church that is pushing their agenda of a woman pastor; I can say quite confidently that it would be a pretty extraordinary situation for a woman to be VOTED in by the board and congregation to pastor OVER a man, but, if no one is the one for moving that church like the Lord wants it moved then THAT woman is who is needed.
Bottom line: We want God's choice, don't we. Israel had God Himself leading them and what did they do? Complain. "We want our own king over us, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...' And, so, God gave them Saul ! Wow ! What a great leader Saul was, ended up dying on his own sword and did all kinds of great leadership things (*rolling my eyes) like call on spirits to show him 'his best life now.' Want what and who God wants for you?

How will I know, green? He will show you. God's divine sovereignty will show you the best path, sometimes, seemingly, the wrong path looking, to take :)
You are right, Green. It's all about the Lord's leading. Who He wants in which roles....and He will let us know if we are willing to open our eyes and follow the path that He sets before us.


_____________
This is a little off base from my thread, but after my pastor of 40 years, hopesprung, retired, a new pastor was seeked, and, the board went off and got this crackerjack pastor from back east (my church is in Washington state) and he was the cat and the caboodle too, he was a renaissance pastor, knew everything to say, dressed to the nines, spoke in a thick southern accent, and, was a pastor of a great big church, just like my church in WA.

He was the pick, or, the other pick was my church's assistant pastor, a young buc of a dude, who grew up in the church , pastored the middle school kids Wednesday night shindig a few years, pastored the young adults singles group I was in (this dude same age as me too, btw) and then was suddenly the only OTHER candidate to take over our pastor's 40 years of dynamic ministry and, yes, our church was on tv, TBN, on Sunday mornings. So, dynamic we had and this guy back east was DYNAMIC. The dude my age was just homegrown and hadn't done more than a few sermons for us in times regular pastor on vacation or giving himself a break for a week, etc.


But, guess what happened, hopesprung!!

The vote happened by the board, and, they chose.......the guy back east. IT was just a bout a signed sealed and delivered deal. Right?


Well, guess what the congregation STILL had to vote, and, wow, I started praying because I knew our assistant pastor seemed right to me, the other guy was like a white knight swooping in to me, plenty dynamic, good message, but the spirit was not leading me to believe he was the right choice. And, guess what! For the vote, the back east pastor MISSED being voted in by less than HALF a percent, as I recall, I know it was real close, but that right there showed me God had a plan for the new appointment of our DYNAMIC tele-evangelist church and it was a ruddy little boy with a sling, OH WAIT!, that's David, sorry :D , it was our young buc dude assistant pastor who has NOW been pastor of my church for 10 years now!! And, the church is vibrant, growing, and , has 4 service a week (3 sunday, one saturday!) and classes during week.

God appoints, people, I hope you liked, loved, rather, this story :)

What a great story! It's so true, isn't it...He does have a perfect person in mind for every ministry. It's also awesome that you were willing to follow His leading...reminds me of the scripture 'trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path'. By your story I am also reminded of the fact that God chooses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. Your assistant pastor may not have looked like much to some (the board obviously preferred the other guy), but he was God's planned minister for your church. Have you ever read the book Radical, by David Platt? I think you would enjoy it...:D


hopesprings
 
Oct 28, 2012
104
0
0
#25
Dearest Sister GreenNnice...
*
women are NOT allowed by*GOD HIMSELF*to pastor or minster in a church...*EVER.
*
so please forgive me for being straight forward on this subject but i know no other way but to speak GOD'S HOLY TRUTH... for if i don't speak GOD'S HOLY TRUTH*then i will be judged for a false teaching of GOD'S HOLY WORD.*
*
i have read on many of YOUR blogs how*badly YOU DESIRE... " women as pastors "... to be so true and that GOD HIMSELF would allow this in the churches YET this is FALSE and NOT the WILL of GOD.
*
lets see what GOD HIMSELF*says in*GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD...*but lets get one thing straightened out first.
*
2 PETERS 1:20-21...
20.*Knowing this first, that
no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21.*For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

*
so basically*GOD HIMSELF is stating that GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD contained in GOD'S OWN HOLY BIBLE*was given to us by the*HOLY SPIRIT...*( who wrote GOD'S SPOKEN WORD*and which is GOD HIMSELF )...*and was thus also ALREADY TRANSLATED/ALREADY INTERPRETED for us so that which we read before us is the very same*HOLY WORD OF GOD spoken in the Past, Present, and Future. for doesn't it state in GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD that ALL shall perish but GOD'S HOLY WORD shall live in ETERNITY.*so either YOU believe this HOLY BIBLE to be GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD and is*DIVINELY PERFECT*in every way from Beginning to the End or*YOU*either*believe that GOD's HOLY WORD contained in GOD'S OWN HOLY BIBLE isn't perfect which is then UNBELIEF.*for BELIEVING and UNBELIEF cannot live side by side in GOD'S HOLY WORD as shown throughout GOD'S HOLY WORD.*
*
now with that said lets begin shall we...
*
1 CORINTHIANS 14:33-36...
33.*For
God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34.*
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35.*And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36.*What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
*

1 TIMOTHY 2:11-14...
11.*Let the
woman learn in silence with all subjection ( submission ).
12.*
But I suffer ( permit ) not a woman to teach, nor to usurp ( have ) authority over the man, but to be in silence (submission ).
13.*For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14.*And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression
.



do you notice what these two HOLY SCRIPTURES from GOD HIMSELF is saying?*

did you notice these were BOTH from the Apostle Paul himself who wrote and repeated what GOD HIMSELF commanded him?

can you tell me how BOTH these HOLY SCRIPTURES from GOD HIMSELF states that a woman CANNOT pastor AT ALL yet you say they can...WHY?



Apostle Paul clearly states in BOTH of GOD'S HOLY WORD that a woman CANNOT pastor or minister in a church or to a man... EVER.*so explain to me why there are women pastors ESPECIALLY when GOD HIMSELF says it is NOT ALLOWED.

the Apostle Paul had to deal with this because in that time as well as now... women felt they can/could be pastors/ministers and thus did so AGAINST GOD and the Apostle Paul had to CORRECT these women by GOD'S HOLY WORD.



did you also notice what the Apostle Paul stated in verse 36... "*36.*What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? "

GOD HIMSELF told the Apostle Paul to tell ALL those in UNBELIEF in GOD'S HOLY WORD... " 36. WHAT? DID YOU SPEAK THE *ORIGINAL HOLY WORD OF GOD FROM YOURSELF AS YOU MAKE YOURSELF GOD? OR DID THE WORD OF GOD COME UNTO YOU JUST AS EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS WHOLE WORLD HAS RECEIVED IT? "
*
you once stated that Eve was deceived and that Adam was the one who sinned BUT THIS IS INCORRECT.



GOD wants women to be under the man in submission for man and woman are no longer co-equal as it was in the Garden of Eden since Eve SINNED first by the UNPARDONABLE SIN and then gave it to Adam.*



what is that UNPARDONABLE SIN that even you misinterpreted... UNBELIEF... in GOD'S HOLY WORD... which in turn becomes a virtue of sin that we commit physically such as lying, being sexually immoral, fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, etc...



don't believe me then read from 1 TIMOTHY 14... which states from GOD HIMSELF... "*14.*And Adam was not deceived, but the*woman being deceived was in the transgression.*"



lets look at the definition of " TRANSGRESSION " ... which is a physical*act of transgressing; the violation of a law/commandment or a duty or moral principle. "



so in other words Eve committed a physical act of sin... and it wasn't the eating of an apple either. if it was an apple then show me in GOD'S HOLY WORD were it says that and i will believe it. but it can't be done because that is a dogma of satan to cloud GOD'S HOLY TRUTH just as satan did to Eve by adding ONE word to GOD'S HOLY WORD... " ye shalt *NOT surely die " when in reality we died from GOD'S HOLY RIGHTEOUSNESS and became unrighteous BEFORE GOD HIMSELF so now GOD COULDN'T physically be with us because of our unrighteousness/uncleanliness.

do you remember what GOD HIMSELF did next? GOD sacrificed a lamb and clothed them in the lamb's skin. do you see it... GOD HIMSELF made the ATONEMENT through BLOOD. SECOND ADAM.*



oh how i love GOD'S HOLY WORD... it is interwoven like my LORD JESUS CHRIST tunic... PERFECT AND SEAMLESS.*



so you see it was Eve's UNBELIEF in GOD'S HOLY WORD that caused her to sin physically after GOD HIMSELF said that... " ye shalt surely die " but satan as stated added to GOD'S HOLY WORD. and we know GOD HIMSELF said if we add or take away from GOD'S HOLY WORD we shall be removed from the Book of Life itself.
*
yes Adam sinned but this was only because Eve SINNED FIRST and then gave it to Adam. what you don't see is that Adam could of refused Eve... leaving Eve and the serpent to GOD'S JUDGEMENT. don't you see that when GOD came GOD clearly states that GOD HIMSELF cursed the serpent and Eve*yet unto Adam GOD curses the ground only... why?
*
i know what you're thinking where does it state that... now remember this... if GOD'S HOLY WORD is DIVINELY PERFECT IN EVERY WAY... then EVERY question we have GOD HIMSELF has provided GOD'S OWN DIVINELY ANSWER*in GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD/HOLY BIBLE.
*
GENESIS 3:17...
17.*And
unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;*
*
did you notice that... CURSED IS THE GROUND... not... Adam you are CURSED. yet we plainly see GOD cursing the serpent and Eve. yet you'll still say... no it doesn't say that. then why does GOD HIMSELF say in*GENESIS 3:12-16...*
*
GENESIS 3:12-16...
12.*And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.*
13.*And the
*Lord*God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14.*And the*
Lord*God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15.
*And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16.*Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
.



don't you see it... GOD HIMSELF cursed the serpent and Eve physically while Adam WASN'T cursed but the EARTH became CURSED... hence a sinful and fallen earth. man no longer had dominion over GOD'S creation because Adam forfeited his RIGHTEOUSNESS in order to become unclean ( sinful ) so that Adam could save his BRIDE.

don't you see it... just as told to us of the SECOND ADAM to come and doing GOD'S WILL saved and redeemed HIS BRIDE TO BE by becoming SIN and the earth.



oh how i love GOD'S HOLY WORD... it is interwoven like my LORD JESUS CHRIST tunic... PERFECT AND SEAMLESS.*



these verses get even deeper revealing a mystery. read these verses carefully and dig at it to reveal what GOD IS SAYING and not what some educated trained individual who becomes bias because for each educated individual has been taught by the wise and prudent and NOT BY GOD.*



why does GOD put ENMITY between the serpent's seed and Eve's seed? 

why does GOD also say that "*it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel? "*

what does " ENMITY " mean and what is " IT " in verse 15? 

why is it when we run GOD'S HOLY WORDS in GENESIS 3:15 it leads us to TWO very distinct verses... serpent seed to JOHN 8:44 and Eve's seed to ISAIAH 7:14?

so what does " seed " truly mean according to GOD?



oh if only you would truly see what GOD is saying right here... GOD HIMSELF in GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD... it would begin to straighten out so many things... you just need to BELIEVE IT... you should BELIEVE it because it's from GOD HIMSELF.


i shall stop here for now because this is a lot to take in and believe but search it out sincerely for GOD SHALL SHOW YOU GOD'S OWN HOLY TRUTH!!!



2 TIMOTHY 3:16...
16.*All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
B

Blooming_Violet

Guest
#26
Women are not the first choice, hopesprung, that is what is being said in 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

Man is first choice, then woman. Why? Because Eve was formed second, after Adam. That is the order.

Eve was deceived by Satan, not Adam. Why? I don't know why, that's Scripture, but I do know that Adam SINNED, not Eve, she just WAS deceived.

* Correction to my opening post: Eve was NOT the deceiver, she was 'the deceived.' Satan did ALL the work, she just believed Satan's lie, after she KNEW better, 'God said we can eat out of every tree and herb of the field but one, this one, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when we do we will surely die.'

I don't know why this is so but this PROVES the order, and, man is to preach, teach, have authority choice OVER A WOMAN chosen. Man first choice, woman is second, among TWO equally gendered bishops, a MAN, according to Paul, who, yes!, is breathing every word from His mouth that God prescribed, I believe, even though the men should not have long hair is a one for some guys to scoff at, but, yeah, the Lord leads, and, the Spirit DOES sometimes appoint a dynamic woman to LEAD a ministry. Joyce Meyers is a good example, and, I could care less about her doctrine beliefs of YOU believing it, there are ALWAYS going to be some saying she speaks from the devil or is going to hell for not believing in freewill instead of total depravity or blah, blah, blah, makes NO difference to me, the point is, she is APPOINTED by God to preach over women and , yes!, men, too :)

Order. Order. Order. We are all the SAME, Galations 3:28 tells us, too, but it also says the ORDER, Christ-->man-->woman.

That's one example, there are many women today leading churches, a few, anyway, not many, actually, because men are FIRST in the order but God will do things for His good will and pleasure and a church of a bunch of abused women mostly in it just maybe NEEDS a woman to pastor them, and, the few men in it too, I don't know, I am just saying, God rules and His way is law and His order is true and that is what Paul is speaking of here. Order :) Man is first choice OVER a congregation and woman is second, because Adam was made first and because Eve was deceived, which is a weakness of things saying about women over men because men, LOL, just sin, like Adam, but are strong-willed, and, more unable to be deceived than women, THIS is why men are FIRST. Miladies, I am NOt bashing you, just speaking Scripture .

:) Sorry, if I say something offending :(

I love you, all, and, men, you too, I love ya, man :)
Gosh Green, you nailed it! To me this makes sense. I have always believed in God's order. But I have also struggled with the many who believe conventional wisdom that women cannot preach. I have known many very human male preachers who could have used less of themselves and more of GOD. It has always seemed to me that God has called many women to preach simply because the men that He called did not respond to His call. How many churches are experiencing a shortage of pastors or priests? Women were called several times in the Word and given authority. Also, I just believe that some men (not all) but some don't hear what another man is saying to them. Sometimes they hear better when their guard is down. I am just thankful that someone else believes that God can use a woman to reach others even if a man is the first choice.

Blooming_Violet
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#27
Gosh Green, you nailed it! To me this makes sense. I have always believed in God's order. But I have also struggled with the many who believe conventional wisdom that women cannot preach. I have known many very human male preachers who could have used less of themselves and more of GOD. It has always seemed to me that God has called many women to preach simply because the men that He called did not respond to His call. How many churches are experiencing a shortage of pastors or priests? Women were called several times in the Word and given authority. Also, I just believe that some men (not all) but some don't hear what another man is saying to them. Sometimes they hear better when their guard is down. I am just thankful that someone else believes that God can use a woman to reach others even if a man is the first choice.

Blooming_Violet
The woman's place is not to rule over men. That would be against the order of creation. Eve was created as a helper to Adam.

Gen.2

[18] And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#28
The woman's place is not to rule over men. That would be against the order of creation. Eve was created as a help to Adam.
I don't think Bloomin meant RULE over men, and while I am being presumptuous in speaking for her, I think she would agree it is TRUE that woman ruling over man is against God's order. I think mostly she was inferring that like myself... being american women... we notice MANY MANY men who are NOT doing their part in ordered leadership... and well it creates a real problem in getting kingdom things accomplished... FOR GOD. I am sure you remember the OT story of Deborah... who had to lead the army because her husband was a wuss. Or Abegail who averted disaster provoked by fool she was married to. Or the woman (FORGET HER NAME) who Killed the enemy General in her tent with a tent peg to the skull. THose women were not rebellious but rather virtuous... and probably would have rather NOT had to step up and do what the MEN were not.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#29
when did this thread lead to woman do nothing?
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#30
WHO said women do NOTHING????
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#31
1 CORINTHIANS 14:33-36...
33.*For
God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints
.
34.*
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35.*And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36.*What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

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Let's look at this verse by verse, livingforGod :)

33. God is not the author of confusion. My take: I think Paul says this because this next set of verses is VERY CONFUSING, can be, but, God Himself is not confusing us. So, Paul's tact seems perfect here to me :)

Now, these next two verses go together, they must if we hope to understand the context, as taken with verse 33 and also verse 36 to come .

34.*Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35.*And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

My take: These verses are paul speaking from reading a letter (directive) of church bylaws, and, Paul is just about ready to explode from the male chauvinisitic pig regs and rules that make women second-class citizens :)

So, keep in mind that Paul doe not shame women, so, to think that Paul is saying , 'it is a shame for a women to speak in church,' is out of character of Paul. He doesn't use the word 'shame' in your other bread and butter verse second-class citizening women, that is, the verseS in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 :)


So, after reading this ostracization by the church elders, planting women under men's feet, listen VERY carefully to Paul's very next word to start verse 36.

What?


Now, does it really make sense, after saying women are shameful to speak in church, to, then, further ostracize and lambast them with a line the equivalent of 'What? Who died and made you God? No one. So, WHAT are you doing, men of this church. Quit ostracizing your women and START getting yourselves into the Word . ' :)

NOw, I do have a way with words, don't I, L4G, but, the point is well taken, is it not?

I didn't have verse 37-41 to go to, but in those verses following the 'What!' verse, or, 'What?' verse, there is Paul saying that everyone is to follow the Lord's commands. And, these things about shaming women is MAN's COMMANDS :(

Anyway, that's my take. Paul is addressing the bylaws and he really did address them with a 'what?' scathing rebuttal, didn't he :)

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So, to summarize, really think of who Paul is and WHAT his character is. You can either say that Paul was just layering death grip on women's freedom in the church again and again, or, if he was reading what SOMEONE ELSE WROTE and then completely unlayering the grip of death that man's commands had a hold on the women at the Corinth church :)
 
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GreenNnice

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#32
livingforGod, I really have to look at the context of your verses again, and, again, I see how Paul is, AT FIRST, reading something from someone else. I just don't see how Paul would suddenly be lambasting the women with telling them to be silent and such, and, for congruency I go to 1 Timothy 2:12 . Paul does not speak of woman being shamed and NEVER says anything volatile like 'What? Who made you God, just shut up already.' That is NOT in Paul's words explaining why women are to be silent, which IF you read my earlier posts you will see I DO believe men are to lead a congregation over women, mainly, THAT is the ORDER. Go back and read my earlier posts :)


Now, on that note, see how Paul gently talks of order to the women of the Ephesus church, he says that 'Adam was formed first, and, then, Eve. Eve transgressed, not Adam.'


Is this sinking in any, living4God? Paul speaks gently, he does carry a big stick when he speaks, for all you need to do is read Romans and 1 corinthians to learn how the Spirt of God speaks through Paul for ALL he says, he speaks not out of his scholar and intelligence of own making in life but of a speaking of God through him speaking all he says to the Corinth people, a humble, humble reality there, that speaks of this gently man who is Paul, living4God :)

again, my take. I see this as the least confusing answer and what just sounds right, for congruency with the character of Paul and the context of his speaking to women--defendingly (1 Cor. 14:36-41) and gently (speaking of the order of man first, women second formed, and, Eve deceived of 1 Tim. 2:13,14). He even in verse 15 of 1 Tim. gently assuages women, letting them know that though they are not to be able to speak to congregations in a primary role they will be 'saved through child-bearing,' and THIS speaks of most women.
 
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BarlyGurl

Guest
#33
So is what your saying is... It wasn't a SHAME to the women to speak in church... rather a SHAME to the MEN??
 
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Abiding

Guest
#34
i should of said more in post #29 but.....
oh my i feel like i sold my birthright for a cup of
that great chili you make:eek:
 
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BarlyGurl

Guest
#35
SELL your BIRTHRIGHT!!!!... Ummm,... that was not a very smart thing for Esau to have done so how does that apply to you???
My I chili might be swill...:p
 
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#36
I think this is guidance towards woman not having the role of 'man'.

Man's role, generally, is one of learning the role of the creator. To have mercy, kindness, forgiveness. Fairness and justice. To love our wives, as alike to us being wives of God. and the woman's role is to love their 'head', their 'man', and repeat the process unto children, in a way.

I think it's more to do with men having the characteristics to lead others in ways of God, and woman as submissive (like men are supposed to be unto the father, as wives).

If we mix that up, then 'mothers' become 'fathers', and such.

Paul does say 'I', rather than 'God', so the argument is there that it is his own personal view. But he is appointed an apostle adn teacher, and his view stands for good reason. A lot of his teachings have insights that were before unseen. And I think this is one of them.

It doesn't say 'No woman should ever tell, suggest, or ask a man what to do', but I think it promotes the idea that men are more suited, simply by our state, to be leaders.

I don't agree that women should run whole congregations as 'fathers', but rather should act as 'wives' unto their husbands.

If you think about it deeply, we (men) are subservient to God, and we learn God's 'point of view' when our wives are to be subservient to us. So as God treats us men, so we should treat our women. With patience, longsuffering, restraint, kindness, mercy, forgiveness. All the things which Jesus personified and became example of as our brother.
 
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#37
Nomatter what a woman says to me, I shall always have the choice whether to listen to her or not. It is in my mind that I make the distinction of whether what she is saying is right, or even contextual (for instance, feelings, in themselves, can't be 'wrong', and so I must take heed of such things), and to do that, I look at myself and my relationship with God. I look at what God asks of me. I cannot ask of my wife unfairly, as God will not ask of me. And I cannot tell God what to do, yet I can 'ask' and suggest what may be helpful for me, as a wife might ask of me.
 
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#38
Does it ever occur that perhaps women already know how to love what is subservient to them? Like loving children? They already know the role of creator? So they need to fully realise the role of wife? Being subservient to what is above them? using their knowledge of the creators role to become a servant and helper to him?

Men tend to want to lord over things, and need to learn the role of the creator in order to learn fairness and not take by force.

Women tend to want to love what is beneath them (children) and therefore will learn to also be in service to that which is above them (both men and God). (hence why I also see women as more compassionate and caring, they need to be!! They're in the middle!)

We all need these things. Humility, and service, wisdom and understanding, compassion. Each in our roles.
 
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#39
And in fact, 'He made them in God's image, male and female he made them'.

We are separated, but I wonder is God more a personification of both 'leader' and 'lover'?

Isn't this what we all wish to be like? If Adam came from God, then was made a helper fashioned from himself, then two becoming one has more meaning than we realise at times.

There is an arabic saying, 'meshallah'. It constitutes learning to behave in Godly fashion. Literally 'make as allah', used to denote for both men and women (thought rather, in Godsense, 'Man and wife'), and constitutes all of which the Holy Spirit entails. Patience, kindness, forgiveness, strength, leadership, joy, mercy etc.
 
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#40
I also believe this is why women have a hard time sometimes in marriage.

We see divorce and the children are well looked after by the wife, but the husband tends to put his wife in a higher position than his kids, if that makes sense?

Women have an easier time of loving children in the role of 'creator', than loving their husbands in the role of 'wife'.

That is a generalization, and of course there are relationships where wives forsake kids for the sake of their husband, but each is equally detrimental.

The same way, man can forsake his wife for another woman, something God doesn't do. So we (men) need learn the role of 'good husband', and wives the role of 'good wife'.

And God directs both.