Idols: Has the bible become an idol?

[Brackenzee]

I ask because if that's the case, if that's what you believe, then this is VERY, EXTREMELY dangerous theology.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I was saying. Rather, I believe that Jesus is the supreme revelation of God, and that rather than our own potentially faulty wisdom, Jesus' life and words should be the prism through which we pass all spiritual ideas.

 

[Wootie]

Until a person can truly from a close relatinship with the Lord, it seems that they have to have something to idolize. Once they feel and hear God's word in their heart, it seems they learn the truth. I got crosses, doves, etc. all over my house now. I did that when I first gave my life to God. I would not go out of the house without my cross necklace around my neck...lol lol Well, now I realise the truth and those things are just there to remind me of the love I have for God and not there to increase God's presence. Silly what we do until we learn the truth.

 

[VW]

It is kinda hard to separate the book from the words contained in it. I guess the question is: what does the bible represent to us? The possibility is that we can hold the scripture as being God to us. Because we have this gift from Him, so easily obtained and read, that we might learn to lean upon and rely upon the scripture in place of the Lord. I am afraid that this is much more of a problem than we realize. I believe that Paul understood this danger, and took pains in his walk to make sure that it did not cause him trouble. He went so far as to tell those he was writing that when we came among them, he had determined to know nothing but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. He was schooled in the scriptures before his conversion, being in training as a Pharisee, and after meeting Jesus he counted all of his training as waste.

Lets see what the word of God has to say about His Word. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This would indicate that the Word is significantly more than a literary work or chronology of events, but the Word is God. In John 1:14 ... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us .., once again depicting Jesus as being tantamount to the word of God. Finally, we have Jesus declaring that His Word provides sustaining power, Matthew 4:4 ... 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' , and we know, of course, that all scripture was inspired by God, and therefore, even with bad translation, still originally came from the mouth of God.

The average believer does not know the contents of the bible without first reading or hearing it. It is inscribed on our hearts once we have heard it, believed it, and understood it. Without understanding, it is stolen from us or becomes useless intellectual information. Matthew 13:19 ... When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.

Even those who receive a message from an angel or a prophet do not receive an immediate inscription of the word of God upon their hearts. Faith itself is dependent on the Word of God, Romans 10:17 ... So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Paul did not abandon his knowledge of the Law, nor did he consider it waste. He did, however, consider all 'things' as loss. Whatever he had gained in this world he counted them as nothing compared to the richness of the knowledge of Christ. Philippians 3:7 ... But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. Paul's knowledge of the Law was a strength to him in the days following his conversion. He did not use the law unlawfully, but rather as a way of defining sin. Romans 7:7 ... I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Paul's training equipped him to conduct a clear comparison between the Old and New Testaments, giving him an extraordinary ability to reveal to his people, how Christ Jesus was the long anticipated Messiah through his remembrance of the writings of the prophets.

Had you said that reading the word for a set period of time each day at exactly the same time each day could become religious obligation, I might have agreed, but I sincerely believe that it is a near impossibility for scripture to become an idol. It is more likely to become a decorative piece or something used for an outward show in place of witnessing ones faith, but never an idol.

Psalm 138:2

I will worship toward your holy temple, and praise your name for your loving kindness and for your truth: for you have magnified your word above all your name.

See, these are all things which are taught, which I learned in study and by reading and by prayer. And they miss so much. I would not agree that having a set time to read the bible is idolatry. Jesus asked Peter who he said Jesus was. Peter, said that He is the Christ, then Son of God, and Jesus told Peter that men had not revealed this to him, but that God had revealed it to him. And then He said something which has been misused for a very long time. He said that upon this revelation He would build His church. And what has been understood by so many who call His name is that He would build His church upon Peter, and so religion came into being. I submit to you that Jesus did not come to establish a religion. Not as a point of doctrine, because I do not want to, nor am I called to establish doctrine. Jesus came to give us life from above.

 

[VW]

Until a person can truly from a close relatinship with the Lord, it seems that they have to have something to idolize. Once they feel and hear God's word in their heart, it seems they learn the truth. I got crosses, doves, etc. all over my house now. I did that when I first gave my life to God. I would not go out of the house without my cross necklace around my neck...lol lol Well, now I realise the truth and those things are just there to remind me of the love I have for God and not there to increase God's presence. Silly what we do until we learn the truth.

Exactly, I used to carry my bible with me everywhere I went. Kind of stupid really, as I have an almost photogenic memory, and I had read it over and over. I don't carry it any more in my hand, but it is in my heart. The Spirit, He brings to my rememberance what He wishes to show me, and I trust in Him for all things, and I am not alone, for the apostles trusted in the Spirit also.

We learn the scriptures and if we submit to the Spirit's teaching and leading, He will make known to us what He wants us to know. And He does this for each child for that child individually. I am afraid really, to tell Him that everything He shows me must line up with my understanding of the scriptures. I find that He shows me things in the scriptures which I would have never suspected, like this topic.

God bless.

 

[VW]

I must say, just so we can know, that I love the scripture. At one time, I thought that I could use the scripture to gain an understanding of God, maybe even learn who He is and what He wants of me. And I did gain these things, but found to my immense shame that this is not what God wanted from me. God does not want me to understand Him, or know for myself what He expects of me, for this is not anywhere close enough or intimate enough a relationship between us for Him. He did not send Jesus into this world for that. He wants us to become one with Him in Christ just as He and Jesus are one in each other. He wants us to enter into a relationship with Him that will permeate every part of our lives, that will fill every part of us, with Himself. Since knowledge puffs up, it can sometimes get in the way of what Jesus came to bring to us from the Father. I would say that whatever it is, no matter the cost, I will turn my back on anything in order to know Jesus Christ and through Him, His Father, who is my God.

 

[Ma-maa]

And that is the problem, for what He has written down is subject to our understanding. So in essence we have told God, do not tell us anything we do not understand. I for one will not do that. I am glad that the apostles did not do that.

What part do I have with other spirits. God, who is in us is greater than them all. And when the devil came to tempt Jesus in the wilderness, did he not use the scriptures to tempt Him? And Jesus spoke the scriptures to answer the devil, but in and with the power and the understanding of the Holy Spirit, just as we can today.

Now now, did i say that? I didn't say G-d can't say things extra to Scripture, I said he won't say things that contradict what he's already said.

 

[VW]

Now now, did i say that? I didn't say G-d can't say things extra to Scripture, I said he won't say things that contradict what he's already said.[/quot

I am sorry if I misunderstood you. Let me try again.

It is hard to separate our understanding from the scripture. When we read or hear a verse, it means something to us. This meaning can be something we have come to by our own reasoning, or by some teaching we have received, or by revelation of the Spirit. I find that these 3 can be very different from each other, often disagreeing drastically. (This is why there are so many differing doctrines, and even differing religions, with the Christian faith. This is even why there are so many cults which use the bible, or some form of it.) I am saying that the only understanding which we can trust is the one which comes from the Spirit. And I have found it often to be the case that His teaching contradicts strongly what I understood from my own reasoning and from what I have been taught. I guess what I am really saying is that the scripture is not understood correctly without the Spirit, teaching us individually, one on one.

We in our language are so limited, and how can we know what contradicts scripture? From what we read? From what we have been taught? Even from what the Spirit has taught us? What I knew from Him as true 10 years ago may not be the true understanding that I am to have now. If the scripture is alive, it is alive through the continuous working of the Spirit of the living God. And I submit that it is alive in us by His Spirit, unchanging in its nature, but constantly being seen by us as new and wonderful, a revelation new each morning. The only reason I make such a stink over this, (it is one of the most difficult things I have to do,) is because of the loss to us that the common understanding about the scriptures causes us in our walk with Christ.

 

[resurrection33]

Where do we look for our truth?

First, I look to the Lord inside me. Where do you look?

 

[greatkraw]

Exactly, I used to carry my bible with me everywhere I went. Kind of stupid really, as I have an almost photogenic memory, and I had read it over and over. I don't carry it any more in my hand, but it is in my heart. The Spirit, He brings to my rememberance what He wishes to show me, and I trust in Him for all things, and I am not alone, for the apostles trusted in the Spirit also.

We learn the scriptures and if we submit to the Spirit's teaching and leading, He will make known to us what He wants us to know. And He does this for each child for that child individually. I am afraid really, to tell Him that everything He shows me must line up with my understanding of the scriptures. I find that He shows me things in the scriptures which I would have never suspected, like this topic.

God bless.

I think you have a very attractive memory as well

 

[VW]

I think you have a very attractive memory as well

Thank you. I think.

Actually, when I read something, I remember it as I see it on the page. Now that I am getting old, I don't see as well as I used to. But I think that the word is photographic for someone who remembers everything they read, and I just never could do that.

Hey, great hearing from you,

His best blessings,

 

[VW]

First, I look to the Lord inside me. Where do you look?

Always, to the Lord, the Spirit, who lives in my heart. He is my rock, the One in whom I trust.

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

I think you have a very attractive memory as well

LOL !!!
too funny

 

[giantone]

The only Idol I see the Bible becoming is when people make fancy gold and artwork to make a super deluxe piece of art and worship the works of their own hands.

The written Word I see in terms of having a part in becoming an idle is when someone comes up with a theology and puts it above or competes with the Gospel and it becomes greater than God's Word.

God has placed His Word above His name. but not man's word.

Psalms 138:2 *I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

One of the basic differences between the Roman Catholic church is their view of scripture. They believe it to be the primary guide to faith and practice. Most Protestants believe that scripture is the sole guide to faith and practice. I believe that the Bible is the sole guide to our faith and practice. Do I believe that there is no place for a subjective experience of God? No! Do I believe that this subjective experience will be the same for every person? No! Do I diminish the benefit of fasting, prayer, worship, etc in experiencing God? No!. Do I believe that there is no wisdom to be gained from God outside of what is specifically outlined in scripture? No! But all these things are subject to the judgement of the objective word of God, the Bible.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Don't you seee...that if you accept subjective experiences at all, you do not really believe scripture is the sole guide to faith and practice? The answer is somewhere in the middle. The apostles consulted scripture, but weren't bound by it, as if they couldn't jump from scripture into revelation, and then back to scripture again. Read the writings of Paul... most is from his revelations... a little is from the old testament scriptures..and even when Paul uses the old testament scriptures... they are re-applied back to fit his revelation. That is the license of the apostle I suppose, which every christian does not have. But God did promise to pour out His Spirit on the young and old alike in the last days..and by that virtue every Christian can live in their own personal revelation.

 

[VW]

One of the basic differences between the Roman Catholic church is their view of scripture. They believe it to be the primary guide to faith and practice. Most Protestants believe that scripture is the sole guide to faith and practice. I believe that the Bible is the sole guide to our faith and practice. Do I believe that there is no place for a subjective experience of God? No! Do I believe that this subjective experience will be the same for every person? No! Do I diminish the benefit of fasting, prayer, worship, etc in experiencing God? No!. Do I believe that there is no wisdom to be gained from God outside of what is specifically outlined in scripture? No! But all these things are subject to the judgement of the objective word of God, the Bible.

You see, that is what I cannot do any more, not because of the anything to do with the bible, but because how can I believe that the written word is understood correctly by my mind to correct my spirit? This is an untenable position in my mind. The scripture must be the basis of the teaching of the Spirit, but that basis is on what I understand the scriptures to say, which is with my mind. My question is, does the scripture speak to us without the Spirit? I believe that if we have an understanding or a knowledge from the scripture that is not from the Spirit, then it is not what God would have us to understand as His children, because it will be from a source other than Him.

 

[VW]

Don't you seee...that if you accept subjective experiences at all, you do not really believe scripture is the sole guide to faith and practice? The answer is somewhere in the middle. The apostles consulted scripture, but weren't bound by it, as if they couldn't jump from scripture into revelation, and then back to scripture again. Read the writings of Paul... most is from his revelations... a little is from the old testament scriptures..and even when Paul uses the old testament scriptures... they are re-applied back to fit his revelation. That is the license of the apostle I suppose, which every christian does not have. But God did promise to pour out His Spirit on the young and old alike in the last days..and by that virtue every Christian can live in their own personal revelation.

I dont believe that this is true. I believe that the apostles trusted in the Holy Spirit completely. I believe that the scriptures were a tool of the Holy Spirit, that they trusted in the Spirit for all things. I do not believe that there is a difference between the Spirit who is given to an apostle and the Spirit who is given to the least of our brothers and sisters. It is the same Spirit in us which is in Christ. Different offices, okay, but not a different spirit.

Yes, a time is coming, I believe it is here, when God is pouring out His Spirit on and in everyone who desires this above everything else. But there have always been those who have know the filling of the Spirit, otherwise the world would have gone dark. Those who are His, who are filled with His Spirit are what is withholding the destruction to come. I used to think that it was the Law, but now I think differently. (This is a good case in point, how do we know what is withholding, it is not named.)

Anyway, I cannot in good conscience subject the Spirit to the scripture, because the scripture came from the Spirit, and the lesser always comes from the Greater. Look to the Lord Jesus, who came from God, and submitted Himself to God, because He came forth from God. If in our minds and hearts, the Spirit is subject to the scripture, then the scripture has become an idol to us.

I hate bringing this subject up, because it is so fraught with beliefs that have endured for many centuries. I do not do this because I want to. If I have offended, I ask forgiveness in His mercy.

 

[Mal316]

I see people in shul touch the cover of the scroll of the Torah with their tallisim or prayer books and then kiss said tallisim or prayer books. Prayer books are not to be put on the floor. The crown and shield and pointer and cover for the Torah scroll are carefully taken off and placed appropriately. People wouldn't dare dream of dropping a torah scroll during the hakafot (processions) on Simchat Torah (joy of the Torah). To me, this borders on idolatry.

Let's take an example from church. Once wine for communion has been sanctified, it is not to be discarded in a profane manner. God forbid anybody should drop the cup.

But what about when we're not in church or shul? How do we act? Are we as careful with our words as we are with the elements for communion? Do we treat our neighbors with at least the same respect we show for the Torah scroll?

The elevation of the Bible, or the trappings surrounding it, over what the Bible commands us is idolatry.

 

[lil-rush]

I see people in shul touch the cover of the scroll of the Torah with their tallisim or prayer books and then kiss said tallisim or prayer books. Prayer books are not to be put on the floor. The crown and shield and pointer and cover for the Torah scroll are carefully taken off and placed appropriately. People wouldn't dare dream of dropping a torah scroll during the hakafot (processions) on Simchat Torah (joy of the Torah). To me, this borders on idolatry.

Let's take an example from church. Once wine for communion has been sanctified, it is not to be discarded in a profane manner. God forbid anybody should drop the cup.

I spilled my communion on my dress once. Such a pretty dress ruined by grape juice.

But what about when we're not in church or shul? How do we act? Are we as careful with our words as we are with the elements for communion? Do we treat our neighbors with at least the same respect we show for the Torah scroll?

The elevation of the Bible, or the trappings surrounding it, over what the Bible commands us is idolatry.

Man, and I was sitting here thinking I didn't treat my Bible like an idol... well, more correctly my Torah now, since it's so new and pretty, and I am very careful not to mess it up. I won't even write in it yet, which mom says I need to get over since I'm willing to write in my Bibles.

I should make a resolution to treat others better than I treat my Torah.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

You see, that is what I cannot do any more, not because of the anything to do with the bible, but because how can I believe that the written word is understood correctly by my mind to correct my spirit? This is an untenable position in my mind. The scripture must be the basis of the teaching of the Spirit, but that basis is on what I understand the scriptures to say, which is with my mind. My question is, does the scripture speak to us without the Spirit? I believe that if we have an understanding or a knowledge from the scripture that is not from the Spirit, then it is not what God would have us to understand as His children, because it will be from a source other than Him.

To say that what you experience apart from the judgement of scripture is more reliable than what you put to the judgement of scripture is an untenable position. If I have a yardstick, but believe that I make mistakes in measuring with it, am I more accurate without the yardstick? If your understanding of scripture is not from the Spirit (illumination) then your understanding outside of scripture will be further away.