Idols: Has the bible become an idol?

[MahogonySnail]

I know from experience in different churches that the Holy Spirit and the power thereof is neglected. Both for miracles AND victorious living and vitality. If you get some power...the church might be too afraid you might leave a nd not be reliant upon them anymore and pay your tithes. Probably most churches spend most of their time catering for the needs or wants of those whose problems could be fixed if the Holy Spirit were allowed to reign free. From backaches to emotional and relationship problems. Then churches could spend more time in evangelistic activities.

 

[VW]

I did.

I know there are liberal christians out there

but I have yet to be shown where specific denominations are teaching the specific heresy that guy mentioned

ChristsArmourBearer
Many denominations have accepted doctrine that clearly reject the conviction power of the Holy Spirit and his ability to interact with us on a daily basis

A symbolic incarnation? In other words, Jesus may not have come in the flesh, it may have been symbolic!

The account of the bible about the creation is symbolic? In other words, eons ago, God set everything in motion and evolution has brought about the creation as we see it now! Adam an Eve is a myth to explain the beginning of mankind, and there was no garden of Eden, no tree of knowledge or tree of life, and no temptation to sin by the serpent!

Goodness will be rewarded and evil punished, but it is how you live your life that counts. In other words, not because of His love for us, not because of His death and resurrection, not because of the new birth, not because of the Spirit's indwelling, just maybe God will reward those who live a good life.

"Most do not believe that humanity inherited original sin from Adam and Eve or that Satan actually exists. Most believe that God is good and made people inherently good, but also with free will and imperfect nature, which leads some to immoral behavior." Do you believe this?

"Various beliefs: Some believe all will go to heaven, as God is loving and forgiving. Others believe salvation lies in doing good works and no harm to others, regardless of faith. Some believe baptism is important. Some believe the concept of salvation after death is symbolic or nonexistent. "I won't put any more of this stuff here.

Any gift of God looses its glory if men use it in a way God did not intend. The bible is essentially meaningless in the above statements. It is no longer the word of God, but a fable written by men to explain things which are now explained by science and human wisdom. The message of Jesus Christ crucified has been gutted, and is no longer even mentioned. And these call themselves Christians. I no longer use that term to describe myself, rather I am a believer in and a lover of Christ Jesus.

 

[shad]

The bible is such a wonderful and great gift from God, and it is from God. But the bible does not teach us. I am uncomfortable with the song which says that Jesus loves us, this I know, for the bible tells me so. Yes, the in the bible it is written that Jesus loves us, but until the Spirit came and filled me with His love, I just thought that I knew that He loves me. Now I know that He loves me, by His Spirit. Is the song wrong? No! Is it the whole truth? Again, no. Can I understand the fact that Jesus loves me without the Holy Spirit? Again, no, not in the complete understanding that comes by the Spirit. And does this revelation from the Spirit contradict the scripture which says that Jesus loves me? Heaven forbid. It is actually the proof of the written word.

The Bible is not a wonderful book nor a gift from God, it is the inspiration of God and is profitable in all things. Inspiration means God-breathed or the breath of God. The scriptures testify the truth about the love of God. If you take the written word away, the Spirit will have no truth to guide you into about how that love functions in the details of life. The Spirit is truth and is a guide and needs the words of truth to guide us in the truth and to shed the love of God within. The Spirit of God can not set us free from the law of sin and death without the knowledge that Christ paid for all sin and buried it, never to remember it anymore or deal with us according to our sin. The same Word that created all things, came in the flesh and will never pass away. You can not separate God's Word from who God is. God is love, God is light and the Word was God that came in the flesh and we beheld the glory of the Word (Christ). They that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth. You can not worship God in Spirit only, but in Spirit and truth. We can't worship in truth only because the Spirit is within us.

When the written word tells me to forgive as Christ has forgiven me, I mix faith in the written word and I forgive. I am not looking for the Holy Spirit to do the forgiving for me. When I obey the written word by faith and forgive my brother, the Holy Spirit witnesses in me the truth and confirms the word I have obeyed from the heart. The written word taught me to forgive and gave me the faith to obey even when I did not feel the love of God at all. If we wait for the love of God to swell up inside us to give some kind of validation so that we can forgive, we might never forgive or condition our obedience on a validation instead of faith. Faith works by love. That means that I can have confidence that when I exercise faith and forgive my brother, the love of God is behind it and approves of my faith.

*There is a validation that believers refer to that is a witness of the Holy Spirit to the truth that is being expressed and that is good and acceptable according to the word / Jn 17:17, 1Jn 5:6-10, Rom 9:1, Rom 8:16.

Abraham believed the word and promise of God and it was imputed (put on his account) unto him for righteousness. The act of Abraham believing the promise of God was enough to get God to impute righteousness. The only work that Abraham performed was to believe, then righteousness was imputed and the promise came much later. Before the promise came Abraham failed with Hagar but did not stagger at the promise of God. When the time of the promise was to be fulfilled (years later) he was an old man with his old wife Sarah and she conceived and bore Isaac. The word and promise of God trumped sin, unbelief, natural selection, old age and years of no fruit. This spoken word and promise that God gave to Abraham taught him patience, endurance, trust and that God is faithful to what he has promised. And when Abraham was asked to offer what God had promised through His word, he did not hesitate to obey and God provided a substitute instead. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit in the OT or NT accounts.

2Pt 1:1-4
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

1Thes 1:5
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

2Cor 6:4-7
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Luke 4:32 32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

 

[VW]

I have not said to take the written word away. And the bible is a gift, from God. It is not God. A gift from God.

Again, my whole point is that while it is possible to mix faith with the written word, it is better to hear the Spirit in and about and in relation to the written word.

It is about fruit. Faith, Hope and Love, these three abide, but the greatest of these is love. The fruit of the Spirit is love. Faith works by love. God is love.

Oh well.

 

[superdave5221]

I have not said to take the written word away. And the bible is a gift, from God. It is not God. A gift from God.

Again, my whole point is that while it is possible to mix faith with the written word, it is better to hear the Spirit in and about and in relation to the written word.

It is about fruit. Faith, Hope and Love, these three abide, but the greatest of these is love. The fruit of the Spirit is love. Faith works by love. God is love.

Oh well.

I think that you are mistaking human nature with idolatry. Someone earlier spoke of a person kissing their bible. I've known people to kiss the photographs of loved ones. You wouldn't argue that the photograph has replaced the actual loved one in that person's heart. Many people are devastated when their wedding rings are lost or stolen. You wouldn't argue that the wedding ring has replaced the love in that person's heart for their spouse. Special gifts from loved ones are often cherished above other things. It is because of the emotion of getting those gifts from that special person. The bible is special with most people because of what it represents. Just because of it's religious nature, don't go overboard in thinking that people are idolizing it. Many bibles are gifts to people from special people in their lives. Often special days such as birthdays and weddings are recorded inside. We make notes in the margins as we learn God's word. We spend many hours in prayer to God with our bibles. I don't know of anyone who thinks that the bible by itself can save or has any power at all. Just as a wedding ring is only a lump of gold. It's what it represents that is important. Instead of discouraging it's use by searching in vain for a sin that only exists in your mind, you should be encouraging people to open their bibles. For it is through God's Word, that He calls us to Jesus.

As for misinterpreting the bible, the Holy Spirit will lead us to understand all that is necessary for salvation. Anything additional will be added as we mature spiritually so that God can use us for His purposes. If you wish to correctly interpret the scriptures, make sure your heart is right with God, and spend less time worrying about what everyone else thinks or does.

 

[VW]

I think that you are mistaking human nature with idolatry. Someone earlier spoke of a person kissing their bible. I've known people to kiss the photographs of loved ones. You wouldn't argue that the photograph has replaced the actual loved one in that person's heart. Many people are devastated when their wedding rings are lost or stolen. You wouldn't argue that the wedding ring has replaced the love in that person's heart for their spouse. Special gifts from loved ones are often cherished above other things. It is because of the emotion of getting those gifts from that special person. The bible is special with most people because of what it represents. Just because of it's religious nature, don't go overboard in thinking that people are idolizing it. Many bibles are gifts to people from special people in their lives. Often special days such as birthdays and weddings are recorded inside. We make notes in the margins as we learn God's word. We spend many hours in prayer to God with our bibles. I don't know of anyone who thinks that the bible by itself can save or has any power at all. Just as a wedding ring is only a lump of gold. It's what it represents that is important. Instead of discouraging it's use by searching in vain for a sin that only exists in your mind, you should be encouraging people to open their bibles. For it is through God's Word, that He calls us to Jesus.

As for misinterpreting the bible, the Holy Spirit will lead us to understand all that is necessary for salvation. Anything additional will be added as we mature spiritually so that God can use us for His purposes. If you wish to correctly interpret the scriptures, make sure your heart is right with God, and spend less time worrying about what everyone else thinks or does.

Some think that because they have a bible to read and understand that on this basis they know God, know what pleases Him, what He wants from them, that it is His voice to them. This makes the bible an idol.

Because of this, the bible has replaced the leading of the Spirit. That makes the bible an idol.

Because of this, some convict others with unjust judgment.

Because of this, more harm has been done in the world than good.

Because of this, the bible has lost its authority in much of the church. (The written word has authority.)

Because of this, people who believe in God have no thought for Jesus Christ, either as Lord or as Savior.

Because of this, the unity of the Spirit is not.

Because of this, the Spirit is grieved.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

I did.

I know there are liberal christians out there

but I have yet to be shown where specific denominations are teaching the specific heresy that guy mentioned

ChristsArmourBearer
Many denominations have accepted doctrine that clearly reject the conviction power of the Holy Spirit and his ability to interact with us on a daily basis

a good example:

Do you or someone you know struggle with habitual sin that you know, according to scripture and also by the prompting of the holy spirit, that this sin is wrong but when you talk to your pastor, an elder or someone else in authority of your church, they basically shrug it off as if it's no big deal because you are already "saved". If this happens in your church then you have a serious problem.

Now I'm not doubting the salvation of anyone involved however, if your leaders don't know how to deal with or don't seem to care about the issues that effect you then they have absolutely no business being leaders in the first place. Church leaders are to be shepherds, they live for the flock not vice versa.

It is the role of the Holy Spirit to conform us into the image of Christ. If this is not the priority of your church leaders then it is an obvious sign that your leaders are not living in obedience to the holt spirit and have no business being in a leadership position.

 

[superdave5221]

Some think that because they have a bible to read and understand that on this basis they know God, know what pleases Him, what He wants from them, that it is His voice to them. This makes the bible an idol.

Because of this, the bible has replaced the leading of the Spirit. That makes the bible an idol.

Because of this, some convict others with unjust judgment.

Because of this, more harm has been done in the world than good.

Because of this, the bible has lost its authority in much of the church. (The written word has authority.)

Because of this, people who believe in God have no thought for Jesus Christ, either as Lord or as Savior.

Because of this, the unity of the Spirit is not.

Because of this, the Spirit is grieved.

I started to go into a logical refutation of the ramblings above, but I realized that logic and intellectual reasoning is not going to reach you. Do you really believe what you wrote above?

Do you actually think that the bible has lost it's authority in the church?

Can anyone in their right mind, who claims to be a Christian actually believe that the bible has caused more harm in the world than good?

Is it possible that someone who claims to have the indwelling Holy Spirit within them actually say that reading the bible, which is dedicated to Jesus Christ from start to finish, would lead people away from Jesus?

I don't claim to know everything. I am not as spiritually mature as some others who post on this board, and who I have been able to learn from. In fact I pray always for wisdom from God, for that is where all wisdom comes from. But what you have said defies all logic and sound reasoning. I'm praying for you brother.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

I started to go into a logical refutation of the ramblings above, but I realized that logic and intellectual reasoning is not going to reach you. Do you really believe what you wrote above?

Do you actually think that the bible has lost it's authority in the church?

Can anyone in their right mind, who claims to be a Christian actually believe that the bible has caused more harm in the world than good?

Is it possible that someone who claims to have the indwelling Holy Spirit within them actually say that reading the bible, which is dedicated to Jesus Christ from start to finish, would lead people away from Jesus?

I don't claim to know everything. I am not as spiritually mature as some others who post on this board, and who I have been able to learn from. In fact I pray always for wisdom from God, for that is where all wisdom comes from. But what you have said defies all logic and sound reasoning. I'm praying for you brother.

Dave, I think your missing VW's point. What VW is saying is not that the bible does all of these bad things but rather MAN'S INTERPREATION of the bible WITHOUT THE LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT causes all of these bad things.

 

[VW]

Dave, I think your missing VW's point. What VW is saying is not that the bible does all of these bad things but rather MAN'S INTERPREATION of the bible WITHOUT THE LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT causes all of these bad things.

Thank you for this. It is exactly what I am trying to say, and failing at it it seems.

But, some of the reactions I get make me wonder. Does God need us to defend Him? Defend the faith, yes. But God, or His word? His word stands on His being God. It needs no defense. If we use what He has given us rightly, it will be a blessing to all who come into contact with it and us. It we use it wrongly, God will do something else with it, as it is His! The bible is not ours, but belongs to God. It is not my bible, never has been. I would no more today try to understand it on my own, without His hand and mind by the Spirit leading me, than I would deny Christ. In fact, to me, they are much the same. Not to say that this is or should be true for everyone, but for me, it is the place God has placed me, this is where I must stay. Under His teaching by His Spirit. For me to do otherwise is sin.

In His love,
vic

P. S. Do we not remember the unbelievable destruction done to people, just on the North American continent in the name of Jesus Christ and for the church? And these people believed that they were following the teaching of the bible. "Got to bring these heathens into Christianity, even if it kills them."

And if there was some money to be gained, or land or gold, well, the bible can justify them in taking it away from them, because, after all, they are just using it for the devil, and we will use it for God. The church has a really sick history.

 

[superdave5221]

Dave, I think your missing VW's point. What VW is saying is not that the bible does all of these bad things but rather MAN'S INTERPREATION of the bible WITHOUT THE LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT causes all of these bad things.

I understand and I have stated that the Holy Spirit is necessary for correct interpretation. But the bible is a necessary part of our teaching. What he has missed in my earlier posts is that the misuse of the bible is not caused by idolatry, but by our spiritual immaturity. And the only way that we can mature spiritually is to continue to use that bible, along with sincere prayer, to help us to be worthy of being used by God to produce good fruit. The real reason that people misuse the bible is that they don't have a right relationship with God. His argument discourages the use of the bible, when instead more prayerful time spent reading it, would be the correct prescription. And his argument that the Word of God has lost it's authority in much of the church implies that the majority of Christians are misinterpreting the bible, while he has it right. I find that a little difficult to believe.

 

[VW]

I understand and I have stated that the Holy Spirit is necessary for correct interpretation. But the bible is a necessary part of our teaching. What he has missed in my earlier posts is that the misuse of the bible is not caused by idolatry, but by our spiritual immaturity. And the only way that we can mature spiritually is to continue to use that bible, along with sincere prayer, to help us to be worthy of being used by God to produce good fruit. The real reason that people misuse the bible is that they don't have a right relationship with God. His argument discourages the use of the bible, when instead more prayerful time spent reading it, would be the correct prescription. And his argument that the Word of God has lost it's authority in much of the church implies that the majority of Christians are misinterpreting the bible, while he has it right. I find that a little difficult to believe.

I do not discourage the use of the bible. I say that the believer should let the Spirit use the bible to teach them. Who am I to think that I am smart enough to "use" the bible? Truth be told, I am stupid, ignorant, and worst of all, devoid of knowledge. How could I use the bible? If anything, I, that is, the person that I am without the Spirit's leading, would do nothing but misuse the bible. That is, if I believe that all goodness comes from God, that all righteousness is from God, that the only good works are those which God does through me, and not those which I do. It is actually a work of faith.

 

[superdave5221]

Thank you for this. It is exactly what I am trying to say, and failing at it it seems.

But, some of the reactions I get make me wonder. Does God need us to defend Him? Defend the faith, yes. But God, or His word? His word stands on His being God. It needs no defense. If we use what He has given us rightly, it will be a blessing to all who come into contact with it and us. It we use it wrongly, God will do something else with it, as it is His! The bible is not ours, but belongs to God. It is not my bible, never has been. I would no more today try to understand it on my own, without His hand and mind by the Spirit leading me, than I would deny Christ. In fact, to me, they are much the same. Not to say that this is or should be true for everyone, but for me, it is the place God has placed me, this is where I must stay. Under His teaching by His Spirit. For me to do otherwise is sin.

In His love,
vic

P. S. Do we not remember the unbelievable destruction done to people, just on the North American continent in the name of Jesus Christ and for the church? And these people believed that they were following the teaching of the bible. "Got to bring these heathens into Christianity, even if it kills them."

And if there was some money to be gained, or land or gold, well, the bible can justify them in taking it away from them, because, after all, they are just using it for the devil, and we will use it for God. The church has a really sick history.

By the way, there are parts of the world where it is against the law to possess a bible. Bibles are smuggled into these countries, and in some cases, those found possessing them can be killed. I guess, using your argument, since they are willing to give their lives for the bible, they must be idolizing them!
Wouldn't it be safer if these people just got their teaching from the Holy Spirit? I guess they haven't thought of that.

 

[VW]

I understand and I have stated that the Holy Spirit is necessary for correct interpretation. But the bible is a necessary part of our teaching. What he has missed in my earlier posts is that the misuse of the bible is not caused by idolatry, but by our spiritual immaturity. And the only way that we can mature spiritually is to continue to use that bible, along with sincere prayer, to help us to be worthy of being used by God to produce good fruit. The real reason that people misuse the bible is that they don't have a right relationship with God. His argument discourages the use of the bible, when instead more prayerful time spent reading it, would be the correct prescription. And his argument that the Word of God has lost it's authority in much of the church implies that the majority of Christians are misinterpreting the bible, while he has it right. I find that a little difficult to believe.

You really do not like what I am writing. Whenever I am faced with such a strong reaction to something I hear, I always stop and seek His face, to see just where this reaction comes from. Whenever Jesus came up against a strong reaction, it was always a religious spirit which caused it. Please, do not think that I am saying this is true in what you are saying and feeling. That you feel so strongly about this, I am and will continue to seek His face in this. (I have been seeking His face and heart in this for over 15 years now.)

In His peace,
vic

 

[superdave5221]

You really do not like what I am writing. Whenever I am faced with such a strong reaction to something I hear, I always stop and seek His face, to see just where this reaction comes from. Whenever Jesus came up against a strong reaction, it was always a religious spirit which caused it. Please, do not think that I am saying this is true in what you are saying and feeling. That you feel so strongly about this, I am and will continue to seek His face in this. (I have been seeking His face and heart in this for over 15 years now.)

In His peace,
vic

You are right in seeking counsel from the Lord. I will do so also. Peace brother.

 

[VW]

You are right in seeking counsel from the Lord. I will do so also. Peace brother.

I remember, (how could I forget?) when after the Father delivered me from a religious life, one which believed those awful doctrines which had lead me to believe that I was saved while living in sin, that He first let me feel and know what He thinks about the way things are now with the church. I had spent the last 3 months in tears because of the power of the vision He showed me about my life, what it was worth, and His placing it in Christ on the cross. His love in this one act, (with His showing me how I would not stay there, in His death, and so He would keep me there by His own power,) overwhelmed me completely. I was and remain truly broken in heart and in spirit.

And while praying after this one night, and as I was giving Him every part of me for His use, He spoke to me and showed me why I had become as I was before. He showed me that I had used His scripture to deny Him His righteousness. By taking what I understood by my reason, and making it to fit what I wanted to believe, I had taken His place in my heart, had never really given Him His place there. The only way for me to know His truth, His love, was to depend upon Him completely for all of my truth. I, at that moment, rejected every thing I knew from the bible that was from before, and started anew, learning in a whole new way, and with each day of study under the Spirit's leading, hearing what only He could tell me, seeing truth as He wished for me to see it, was and is wondrous in the extreme. And each time I open His written word to hear His voice, It, His voice, is new and fresh and enlightening, and empowering. It is His compassion, His love for me, to take me aside and teach me in His truth. And this He will do for all of His children.

This is a gift beyond price. Nothing can compare to this walk with Him. I beg of us that we examine our own hearts and seek any thing which could restrain this fellowship with Him in the Spirit. And truly, this is the way that Jesus walked in His time in the world.

The religious will not like this. Why? Because it is not of them. They are not the source of the teaching. The ministers of God to His bride to be is to teach her to know the Lord, how to come to know Him in fullness, that she might become pure and bright and clean and white and without spot or wrinkle or any other thing. How can we fall in love with someone we never spend time with? Yes, I did study the bible then, but was it to learn about God, or to come to know Him? Truthfully, until He took hold of me, I was not coming to know Him. I knew a lot about Him, and a lot about His word, but if I had known Him then as I do now, I would not have lived as I was. He would not have had to shake me to my very core to wake me up from the sleep of death. I only write these things that some others who may need to might be awakened.

Thank you for seeking Him,
vic

 

[greatkraw]

a good example:

Do you or someone you know struggle with habitual sin that you know, according to scripture and also by the prompting of the holy spirit, that this sin is wrong but when you talk to your pastor, an elder or someone else in authority of your church, they basically shrug it off as if it's no big deal because you are already "saved". If this happens in your church then you have a serious problem.

Now I'm not doubting the salvation of anyone involved however, if your leaders don't know how to deal with or don't seem to care about the issues that effect you then they have absolutely no business being leaders in the first place. Church leaders are to be shepherds, they live for the flock not vice versa.

It is the role of the Holy Spirit to conform us into the image of Christ. If this is not the priority of your church leaders then it is an obvious sign that your leaders are not living in obedience to the holt spirit and have no business being in a leadership position.

you are now piling up speculaton upon speculation

I have seen this before where a particular church spends its time condemning all the churches around it without actually doing any research
this comes from a fundamental insecurity that the sheep may stray

you have made several broad general statements about denominations
you still have not addressed my challenge that you provide documented evidence of your assertions

 

[VW]

you are now piling up speculaton upon speculation

I have seen this before where a particular church spends its time condemning all the churches around it without actually doing any research
this comes from a fundamental insecurity that the sheep may stray

you have made several broad general statements about denominations
you still have not addressed my challenge that you provide documented evidence of your assertions

What is it with documented evidence? As a former Baptist, raised in the church, I can tell you that they are not teaching Christ as He is. What they teach and believe is worthless against unrighteousness. And it does not give to the worshiper the power, (Jesus Christ is the power,) against sin. Instead it places the worshiper in the place of doing the best he can, knowing full well that this is not good enough, so the doctrine of once saved, always saved. In other words, you have accepted Christ into your heart, so go and sin no more, but if you do, which you will, God will and has already forgiven you. But there is no mention of God's work of cleansing us from all unrighteousness. In fact, that is not believed. The last sermon I heard in a Baptist church was 20 minutes of how God's plan for man was that man be good. We know that God's plan for us is that we become sons of God through and in Jesus Christ.

I was also exposed to the Methodist church. More of the same, only even less power of God in the life of he worshiper. And I have been to Protestant churches and listened closely to the sermons, and I find no power of God there. I have been to Catholic services, and guess what, no power of God there. Am I saying that all of these people are not saved? Heavens no! Where ever the cross of Christ is preached, some will hear the voice of the Spirit and receive Him. Are they then given the leading and the teaching which will lead to a life filled with Christ? You answer this question.

And so then I went to a bible teaching and Spirit filled church. And things were a little better, but not much. There was some ministry of the Spirit, but not much teaching about the worshipers life by the power of the Spirit. Yes, it was taught, but with reasoning of men, not by the power of the Spirit. But, more of the worshipers did find the indwelling of the Spirit in their lives, and went on to a victorious life in Christ. Mainly because He was taught, somewhat. (Forgive me for being critical, this is my testimony.)

The Spirit weeps for the ruin of the church. Believe me not?

Ask Him.

 

[greatkraw]

What is it with documented evidence? As a former Baptist, raised in the church, I can tell you that they are not teaching Christ as He is. What they teach and believe is worthless against unrighteousness. And it does not give to the worshiper the power, (Jesus Christ is the power,) against sin. Instead it places the worshiper in the place of doing the best he can, knowing full well that this is not good enough, so the doctrine of once saved, always saved. In other words, you have accepted Christ into your heart, so go and sin no more, but if you do, which you will, God will and has already forgiven you. But there is no mention of God's work of cleansing us from all unrighteousness. In fact, that is not believed. The last sermon I heard in a Baptist church was 20 minutes of how God's plan for man was that man be good. We know that God's plan for us is that we become sons of God through and in Jesus Christ.

I was also exposed to the Methodist church. More of the same, only even less power of God in the life of he worshiper. And I have been to Protestant churches and listened closely to the sermons, and I find no power of God there. I have been to Catholic services, and guess what, no power of God there. Am I saying that all of these people are not saved? Heavens no! Where ever the cross of Christ is preached, some will hear the voice of the Spirit and receive Him. Are they then given the leading and the teaching which will lead to a life filled with Christ? You answer this question.

And so then I went to a bible teaching and Spirit filled church. And things were a little better, but not much. There was some ministry of the Spirit, but not much teaching about the worshipers life by the power of the Spirit. Yes, it was taught, but with reasoning of men, not by the power of the Spirit. But, more of the worshipers did find the indwelling of the Spirit in their lives, and went on to a victorious life in Christ. Mainly because He was taught, somewhat. (Forgive me for being critical, this is my testimony.)

The Spirit weeps for the ruin of the church. Believe me not?

Ask Him.

Vic, do you understand that the posts I have a problem with are not yours but ChristArmourBearer

from thread to thread he keeps making broad generalisations about organisations and groups of people he could not possibly have personal knowlege of
I am challenging him to back up his maligning

I have been involved in at least 4 denominations. Their many heresies have never included denial that the Holy Spirit can convict or that one can continue in sin.

 

[VW]

Vic, do you understand that the posts I have a problem with are not yours but ChristArmourBearer

from thread to thread he keeps making broad generalisations about organisations and groups of people he could not possibly have personal knowlege of
I am challenging him to back up his maligning

I have been involved in at least 4 denominations. Their many heresies have never included denial that the Holy Spirit can convict or that one can continue in sin.

Yes, my friend, I do understand that. The sense I had was that he has experience with this.......mess. It may be that things are much worse in this country, (USA) than in other parts of the world. I think what we wish and hope for with all of our hearts, is that the Holy Spirit become the voice of the church, such as it was when Ananias and Sapphira were convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin. We are so far away from that place.

I apologize if I am stepping in where I shouldn't.

with humility,