I'm Treading Works Salvation...lolzzzzzzz

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyone who reads the thread honestly can see that the Arminian side of the debate are the ones who have either A. problems with reading comprehension, or B. just flat out liars and hostile toward everyone who doesn't agree. The level of misrepresentation from the side of the Arminians is unreal.

I have been here in CC for a few years.. It happens with both sides. Thats why when most people see an arminian vs a calvanist thread, they run, Because both sides can get nasty!

I would venture to say most people here are Ethernet calvanist or arminian, But people seem to also like to put then under one of the teo parties. Tat does not help much either, Because they hear key words, nd ASSUME they know what the other believes outwith even trying to figure it out.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hmmm...never seen a Calvinist accused of works salvation.

It happens quite often.

Most people go the opposite extreme and accuse them of teaching a licentious doctrine.

Yes, whatever extreme they desire, that is what is used.

Not that your OP teaches either.

Not even remotely.

Last time I checked on that thread, it was alright.

Must have missed the drama.

Are you still calling others Universalist?

There are several who's take on Scripture lends itself to Universalism. Certainly they are unaware of what they are leanign towards. I will make that application when it comes. Some may see this error in time which are the same mistakes that lead some into Universalist teachings which are contrary to Scripture.

But this thread really isn't about Universalism. It is about giving professing believers the opportunity to unite in a little way and own up to the fact that there is nothing in the OP that teaches works. We should all hold others accountable when they openly lie, but not many will step up to the plate due to their hatred of Calvinists.

 

[Willie-T]

Exactly. Not one anti Cal will have the honesty or guts to agree that nothing in my statement says a thing about works salvation because I'm what they call a calvinist. It's too easy to just be filled with malice and hate instead. The hate and ugliness from that group is over the top, and it is actually grounded in hatred for God's Sovereign electing grace.

There's probably not much more hateful an outlook to live with than, "I am worthy to be chosen by God, but those 'unwashed ones' over there were never as good, so I figure they were created just to burn."

Talk about an "elitist" and "entitled" attitude!

 

[Ariel82]

I have been here in CC for a few years.. It happens with both sides. Thats why when most people see an arminian vs a calvanist thread, they run, Because both sides can get nasty!

I would venture to say most people here are Ethernet calvanist or arminian, But people seem to also like to put then under one of the teo parties. Tat does not help much either, Because they hear key words, nd ASSUME they know what the other believes outwith even trying to figure it out.

Stuff them in a box, even if you have to chop off a few limbs?

 

[ForthAngel]

There's probably not much more hateful an outlook to live with than, "I am worthy to be chosen by God, but those 'unwashed ones' over there were never as good, so I figure they were created just to burn."

Talk about an "elitist" and "entitled" attitude!

And so it continues. More lies from the opposition. Disgusting.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Stuff them in a box, even if you have to chop off a few limbs?

Thats what it feels like sometimes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And so it continues. More lies from the opposition. Disgusting.

Actually all he did was show what a calvanist looks like to a person who does not hold to calvanism.

Most of us know your not saying this, But it sure sounds like it.. Which is why again the arguments get so heated..

 

[notuptome]

Has it occurred to anyone that since Calvinism and Arminianism are human constructs to explain or describe Spiritual concepts that they both could be inadequate? There is no question that Gods word is without fault or flaw. There is also no doubt that man's finite mind is sure to misconstrue Gods truths.

Question seems to be does God appoint men to die for eternity in the lake of fire? Answer is absolutely yes. God has appointed all men to die and spend eternity in the lake of fire. All men are sinners and the wages of sin are death. Scripture tells us that God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all. Gods mercy is the reason we all are not in the lake of fire today.

Salvation is not of works but it is of grace. So it is not I but God Who has made the choice that grace saves and not works. It is God that willeth I work because I am predestined in Christ to do works. Not predestined to be in Christ but predestined because I am in Christ by grace through faith.

Context, context, context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

Has it occurred to anyone that since Calvinism and Arminianism are human constructs to explain or describe Spiritual concepts that they both could be inadequate? There is no question that Gods word is without fault or flaw. There is also no doubt that man's finite mind is sure to misconstrue Gods truths.

Question seems to be does God appoint men to die for eternity in the lake of fire? Answer is absolutely yes. God has appointed all men to die and spend eternity in the lake of fire. All men are sinners and the wages of sin are death. Scripture tells us that God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all. Gods mercy is the reason we all are not in the lake of fire today.

Salvation is not of works but it is of grace. So it is not I but God Who has made the choice that grace saves and not works. It is God that willeth I work because I am predestined in Christ to do works. Not predestined to be in Christ but predestined because I am in Christ by grace through faith.

Context, context, context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sounds like Calvinism to me

Actually, with one small difference. Never mind. I would mostly agree with your post though.

 

[Issachar92]

While you all know im not a calvinist, this works salvation phobia is way out of hand these days.
Its almost like christians got everything backwards.

Someone comes along and says "ive been saved all my life, still wallowing in the same sins, praise God for grace!!" and its all amen, try not to sin. lets hope God cleans up that life.

Then another one comes along and talks about purity of heart, righteousness, repentance, producing fruit, turning from sin, being freed from those sins. And the reply is: WORKS SALVATION, you trying to work your way into heaven? AHAA! we'll see, i'll stay in my sins and trust in God alone to save me unlike you.

Lets get over the works salvation phobia. Nobody is saying you are saved by works unless you are a roman catholic or something.

 

[ForthAngel]

While you all know im not a calvinist, this works salvation phobia is way out of hand these days.
Its almost like christians got everything backwards.

Someone comes along and says "ive been saved all my life, still wallowing in the same sins, praise God for grace!!" and its all amen, try not to sin. lets hope God cleans up that life.

Then another one comes along and talks about purity of heart, righteousness, repentance, producing fruit, turning from sin, being freed from those sins. And the reply is: WORKS SALVATION, you trying to work your way into heaven? AHAA! we'll see, i'll stay in my sins and trust in God alone to save me unlike you.

Lets get over the works salvation phobia. Nobody is saying you are saved by works unless you are a roman catholic or something.

Quite a few here are teaching works salvation though, or a spin-off which is works to keep salvation. And many here are teaching it's okay to remain in sin as if no conversion took place. I don't think it's always just a phobia.

 

[Issachar92]

Quite a few here are teaching works salvation though, or a spin-off which is works to keep salvation. And many here are teaching it's okay to remain in sin as if no conversion took place. I don't think it's always just a phobia.

Whats the difference between these two statements:

Arminianism - you have to endure to the end, you have to produce fruit.

Calvinism - the elect will endure to the end, they will produce fruit.

The end result is (hopefully) exactly the same, obedience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

While you all know im not a calvinist, this works salvation phobia is way out of hand these days.
Its almost like christians got everything backwards.

Someone comes along and says "ive been saved all my life, still wallowing in the same sins, praise God for grace!!" and its all amen, try not to sin. lets hope God cleans up that life.

Then another one comes along and talks about purity of heart, righteousness, repentance, producing fruit, turning from sin, being freed from those sins. And the reply is: WORKS SALVATION, you trying to work your way into heaven? AHAA! we'll see, i'll stay in my sins and trust in God alone to save me unlike you.

Lets get over the works salvation phobia. Nobody is saying you are saved by works unless you are a roman catholic or something.

Nah, That's not the issue. The issue is people coming in saying they obey, and do not struggle with ANY sin, And yell at those who admit they do struggle are licentious.

It is two people arguing on both ends, and failing to meet in the middle. Where true grace is.. The view keeps both sides from seeng what true grace is. Just like the Calvinist vs Armenian debate,, they can not meet in the middle. because they are to engrossed in doctrine, and being right, and proving the other wrong, vs what is really the truth.

And many more than just catholic preach works..

 

[Willie-T]

While you all know im not a calvinist, this works salvation phobia is way out of hand these days.
Its almost like christians got everything backwards.

Someone comes along and says "ive been saved all my life, still wallowing in the same sins, praise God for grace!!" and its all amen, try not to sin. lets hope God cleans up that life.

Then another one comes along and talks about purity of heart, righteousness, repentance, producing fruit, turning from sin, being freed from those sins. And the reply is: WORKS SALVATION, you trying to work your way into heaven? AHAA! we'll see, i'll stay in my sins and trust in God alone to save me unlike you.

Lets get over the works salvation phobia. Nobody is saying you are saved by works unless you are a roman catholic or something.

I don't think I've ever even met anyone who feels Calvinists are works-oriented, simply because of believing they are special. However many denominations that are Calvinistic (Lutheran?) do seem to get into assembly-geared works.

 

[Adstar]

The nastiest discussions i have ever had online have been with calvinists.. I try to avoid them as best i can.. I will post simply to state my opposition to their dogmas but i know for many experiences it is almost impossible to move a calvinist from calvinism.. They are locked into those 5 pillars.. and only the LORD can get them out..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whats the difference between these two statements:

Arminianism - you have to endure to the end, you have to produce fruit.

Legalism, Salvation is based on how well we endure. (works)

Calvinism - the elect will endure to the end, they will produce fruit.

Not sure, endure to the end is not even a salvation issue,, It is talking to peopel alive during to the tribulation enduring until Christ returns. So why enduring is even brought up is meaningless ((except to again, prove armininas wrong)

The end result is (hopefully) exactly the same, obedience.

I would hope salvation is the end result.. and the most important part.

I can be a morally good perosn all my life, and not commit grace sins,, And not be saved, it means nothing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think I've ever even met anyone who feels Calvinists are works-oriented, simply because of believing they are special. However many denominations that are Calvinistic (Lutheran?) do seem to get into assembly-geared works.

ther is one person in particular who calls pharisee legalist.. So it is probably him, I have both on ignore. so I am not sure what the argument was about.

 

[Willie-T]

Whats the difference between these two statements:

Arminianism - you have to endure to the end, you have to produce fruit.

Calvinism - the elect will endure to the end, they will produce fruit.

The end result is (hopefully) exactly the same, obedience.

You may have missed one:
Christian - You will endure to the end, you get to be fruitful.

 

[Issachar92]

Lets break this down very simply and plainly.

Faith and obedience are synonymous.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Works are not obedience (only), often times when works are mentioned in the bible its referring to the mosaic law:

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

So when the bible says justified by FAITH, its not saying believe Jesus exists and you're saved. Even the demons believe that.... now is saying this works salvation? Probably, we'll see how many theology professors refute me.


Obey Jesus = Faith
Obey Judaism, catholicism, etc etc = Works

 

[ForthAngel]

Whats the difference between these two statements:

Arminianism - you have to endure to the end, you have to produce fruit.

Calvinism - the elect will endure to the end, they will produce fruit.

The end result is (hopefully) exactly the same, obedience.

I don't think Calvinism and Arminianism are totally at odds. The main difference I see is an inconsistency in Arminian theology and doctrines while Calvinism is more tightly knit. I do believe there can be a coexistence of both Calvinists and Arminians, but the issue comes when one side or the other blatantly misrepresents the other. For the most part, both sides agree on the Gospel and other fundamental aspects of Christianity. Most of the arguments end up being on peripheral subjects. I will admit, however, that I think reformed theology elevates God while lowering man while Arminian theology lowers God and elevates man. Beyond that and some peripheral issues, we, in theory, SHOULD be able to get along.