Is being justified and righteous before God, the same as being forgiven by God?

[crossnote]

Originally Posted by crossnote

Doesn't true faith include repentace? i.e. to whole heartedly turn to Christ one is at the same time whole heartedly turning their trust from all else. IOW other side of the same coin.

No. True faith simply believes what God said and acts on it. The fruit of faith brings the desired result, not repentance, unless your faith is in the desired result of repenting. If you believe that nothing will happen if you repent, then you won't bother repenting. If you eat food that you think will harm you, then you did not eat it in faith and you have sinned.

So one can continue to have faith in Krishna while having faith in Jesus? I don't see how true faith in Jesus can abide alongside faith in another. When one turns truly towards Jesus as their ONLY Savior a necessary turning from (repentance) their former hope also takes place.

 

[know1]

Originally Posted by crossnote

So one can continue to have faith in Krishna while having faith in Jesus? I don't see how true faith in Jesus can abide alongside faith in another. When one turns truly towards Jesus as their ONLY Savior a necessary turning from (repentance) their former hope also takes place.

I know it sounds stupid, but when I look at scripture, I see that if we truly believe in/on the name of Jesus, we become children of God. Now if you are talking about turning from doubt to believing then, yes, that kind of repentance is necessary. What I was referring to was repentance from somethings like, sins one might commit all the time, say maybe they drink alcohol and get drunk, smoke, take drugs, curse, or the like. I'm not saying these things are okay to do, just that it is not a requirement for one to repent of, before they can believe and receive Christ in their heart, thereby receiving salvation. I don't see scripture backing this up when you look at each verse individually as a truth.
When I look at repentance in scripture, what I see is that it opens the door for a person to receive forgiveness so that they can
1) get answers to prayer
2) get delivered
3) get healed
for your self and those under your covering.
Perhaps I am wrong, and feel free to correct me, but I do not see forgiveness of your sins as a requirement to get into heaven.
I see repentance and forgiveness of sins different than being justified, made righteous, or put in right standing with God. I think one can be righteous before God in Christ Jesus and going to heaven when they die even when they have unforgiven sins in their life. This is one reason why I don't see repentance of sins, not from doubting the name and person of Jesus, but of doing bad things, as a requirement to receive eternal life or to make one just and righteous before God.
If salvation is by faith only then why do we add the repentance scriptures as though it is part of the requirement for it.
Rom 4:1
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 4:22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

The above verses talk about a salvation kind of Faith. Abraham was made righteous because he believed God, not because he repented of his sins, then believed. It doesn't mention anything about repentance.
I you don't add anything to verses 4 or 5, then faith is the only requirement to be justified before God. Therefore, repentance of ones sins must be for something else, and a lack of forgiveness from God for those sins committed by that unrepentant person would not prevent him or her from going to heaven when they die.
Just;

- Definition:equitable(in character or act); by implication innocent holy (absolutely or relatively): - just meet right (-eous).

1.
righteous, observing divine laws
a.
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1.
of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
2.
innocent, faultless, guiltless
3.
used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life 1a
b.
only christ truly

1.
approved of or acceptable of God

righteous;
to render (that is show or regard as) just or innocent: - free justify (-ier) be righteous.

repent; - Definition:
1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
- Origin: from G3326 and G3539
- TDNT entry: 20:15,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Strong's: From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards that is reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

 

[know1]

When the Spirit of Christ is in a person after the convertion, that Spirit will convict the person of their sins, causing them to repent. For it is the Spirit of God that causes us to both will and do of His good pleasure. That is that the Spirit of God will cause us to want to stop sinning, and desire to do good, thereby causing us to repent.
Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[starfield]

Eph 4:32

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

...And they are forgiven because they repented. Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin (Luke 13:3).

 

[crossnote]

I know it sounds stupid, but when I look at scripture, I see that if we truly believe in/on the name of Jesus, we become children of God. Now if you are talking about turning from doubt to believing then, yes, that kind of repentance is necessary. What I was referring to was repentance from somethings like, sins one might commit all the time, say maybe they drink alcohol and get drunk, smoke, take drugs, curse, or the like. I'm not saying these things are okay to do, just that it is not a requirement for one to repent of, before they can believe and receive Christ in their heart, thereby receiving salvation. I don't see scripture backing this up when you look at each verse individually as a truth.
When I look at repentance in scripture, what I see is that it opens the door for a person to receive forgiveness so that they can
1) get answers to prayer
2) get delivered
3) get healed
for your self and those under your covering.
Perhaps I am wrong, and feel free to correct me, but I do not see forgiveness of your sins as a requirement to get into heaven.
I see repentance and forgiveness of sins different than being justified, made righteous, or put in right standing with God. I think one can be righteous before God in Christ Jesus and going to heaven when they die even when they have unforgiven sins in their life. This is one reason why I don't see repentance of sins, not from doubting the name and person of Jesus, but of doing bad things, as a requirement to receive eternal life or to make one just and righteous before God.
If salvation is by faith only then why do we add the repentance scriptures as though it is part of the requirement for it.
Rom 4:1
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 4:22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

The above verses talk about a salvation kind of Faith. Abraham was made righteous because he believed God, not because he repented of his sins, then believed. It doesn't mention anything about repentance.
I you don't add anything to verses 4 or 5, then faith is the only requirement to be justified before God. Therefore, repentance of ones sins must be for something else, and a lack of forgiveness from God for those sins committed by that unrepentant person would not prevent him or her from going to heaven when they die.
Just;

- Definition:equitable(in character or act); by implication innocent holy (absolutely or relatively): - just meet right (-eous).

1.
righteous, observing divine laws
a.
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1.
of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
2.
innocent, faultless, guiltless
3.
used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life 1a
b.
only christ truly

1.
approved of or acceptable of God

righteous;
to render (that is show or regard as) just or innocent: - free justify (-ier) be righteous.

repent; - Definition:
1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
- Origin: from G3326 and G3539
- TDNT entry: 20:15,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Strong's: From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards that is reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

perhaps think of all the good we failed to do while entering heaven?

 

[Elin]

The Natural man cannot have Faith in Jesus Christ its impossible for him.

Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Natural man is in the flesh. Jesus says Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Before a man can exercise Faith in Christ he must be already born again. Faith in Christ is an evidence of havibg been already born anew!

Agreed. . .

 

[Elin]

I think the removal of sins is different from atonement for them.

atonement is an understanding between God and man that a sin can be ignored - the sin doesn't go away but is ignored.

Actually, atonement is paying the debt incurred by sin, which then remits sin.

All the OT sacrifices for sin were for atonement - but had to be continued as they covered sins before.
The animal sacrificed was gone.

The sacrifice of Jesus was an atonement for sin too - but because Christ lives, that sacrifice can be perpetual and is not needed repeatedly. Jesus became the sacrificial lamb/kid on our behalf. If we try to be like him (to follow him) then he will consider us part of his sacrifice.e]

Actually, the animal sacrifices atoned for sin, by paying the prescribed penalty of death
for sin (Ro 6:23), thus reconciling them to God,
but they only covered the sin, they did not remit it.

Christ's sacrificial death paid the penalty of death for the sin of all those who believe in him,
and Christ's sacrifice doesn't just cover sin, it remits sin.
His sacrificial death also remitted the sin of the OT saints which was only covered.

He is our mediator - our high priest. He has made the sacrifice.
Belief in him as mediator, high priest and King is what makes his sacrifice applicable to us.

Our sins are overlooked by God - if we are 'in his anointed son'
Use what words you want to use - but that's the end line as far as I can see.

But we must confess them for forgiveness and cleansing (1Jn 1:9).

 

[svedbygrace]

star

...

And they are forgiven because they repented

Thats not what Eph 4:32 says. Thats adding to scripture, a serious violation !

 

[know1]

Originally Posted by crossnote

So one can continue to have faith in Krishna while having faith in Jesus? I don't see how true faith in Jesus can abide alongside faith in another. When one turns truly towards Jesus as their ONLY Savior a necessary turning from (repentance) their former hope also takes place.

I can garentee you that you believe things contrary to the word of God and yet you believe that you are still going to heaven, don't you? If a person does contrary to what they believe to be right or the will of God, then to them it is sin, and they will give account of their sin before God.
I'm not saying that it is okay to believe in this Krishna critter, but receiving salvation through Christ is based on our faith in Him, not on our repentance of dead works or works that bring death. The Spirit of God is in the business of convicting people of their sins to clean them up. God does not demand that people clean themselves up before they can receive Christ in their hearts. The way I read it, God cleans them up WHEN they BELIEVE IN CHRIST, not when they repent of all the bad things they did in their life.

Eph_2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith [not repentance and faith]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The only kind of repentance necessary for salvation is from doubting that Jesus is the Christ whom God the Father has raised from the dead. If one believes even on the name of Jesus, the scriptures declare that person as a child of God.

 

[know1]

Thats not what Eph 4:32 says. Thats adding to scripture, a serious violation !

This is another point I'm trying to get across to people. Many, if not most, add another scripture to make the bible fit their doctrines. We say the bible is the word of God, that it is the truth, and that we believe what it says, knowing that we are not to add to or take anything from the scriptures. And yet most will add other verses in the bible to scripture to make it "the whole truth" and not just part of the truth, being by itself.
If a verse says that if you do this, God will do that, and it only be half the truth, then it constitutes that scripture as a lie and not the truth, because half of a truth is the same as a lie, for that is how the devil works many or most of his deceits. He makes it convincable by placing a little truth in there to deceive the person.

 

[know1]

The Natural man cannot have Faith in Jesus Christ its impossible for him.

Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Natural man is in the flesh. Jesus says Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Before a man can exercise Faith in Christ he must be already born again. Faith in Christ is an evidence of havibg been already born anew !

Actually, it is the entrance of the Word of God in the heart of the unbeliever after they hear it, that faith comes. Not after they become a child of God.

Rom_10:17
So then faith cometh by [or after] hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[starfield]

This is another point I'm trying to get across to people. Many, if not most, add another scripture to make the bible fit their doctrines. We say the bible is the word of God, that it is the truth, and that we believe what it says, knowing that we are not to add to or take anything from the scriptures. And yet most will add other verses in the bible to scripture to make it "the whole truth" and not just part of the truth, being by itself.
If a verse says that if you do this, God will do that, and it only be half the truth, then it constitutes that scripture as a lie and not the truth, because half of a truth is the same as a lie, for that is how the devil works many or most of his deceits. He makes it convincable by placing a little truth in there to deceive the person.

No, it's called interpreting a passage in light of what the rest of the scripture says. The bible clearly says that one must repent and believe in order to be saved, yet that man (Svedbygrace) denies it and says one must be saved first BEFORE they can repent and believe. Now who is handling the word of God deceitfully?

 

[svedbygrace]

Actually, it is the entrance of the Word of God in the heart of the unbeliever after they hear it, that faith comes. Not after they become a child of God.

Rom_10:17
So then faith cometh by [or after] hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Natural man cannot have Faith in Jesus Christ its impossible for him.

Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Natural man is in the flesh. Jesus says Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Before a man can exercise Faith in Christ he must be already born again. Faith in Christ is an evidence of havibg been already born anew !

 

[know1]

The Natural man cannot have Faith in Jesus Christ its impossible for him.

Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Natural man is in the flesh. Jesus says Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Before a man can exercise Faith in Christ he must be already born again. Faith in Christ is an evidence of havibg been already born anew ![/QUOTE


If salvation is given by or through faith, how can one be born again if they don't have any? You are putting the cart before the horse my friend. You cannot receive Christ in your heart until after you hear the gospel and believe in the Son of God .
Rom_12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think
of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Every man has been given a measure of faith. Faith in Jesus comes after one hears the gospel.
Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing
, and hearing by the word of God.
Joh 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Verses 5 and 6 go together. Verse 6 explains what being born of the water and Spirit is in verse 5. Verse 5 explains what has to be born again in verse 3.
It doesn't have anything to do with Romans 8. Romans is talking about the carnal mind and carnally minded people. They are not talking about the same thing.
Faith first, then comes salvation, not the reverse order.

 

[RedTent]

If a verse says that if you do this, God will do that, and it only be half the truth, then it constitutes that scripture as a lie and not the truth, because half of a truth is the same as a lie, for that is how the devil works many or most of his deceits. He makes it convincable by placing a little truth in there to deceive the person.[/COLOR]

Even though every verse of the bible is truth, I think that it takes many more than one verse to understand. As an example, one verse says that we are not under law. Without the verses explaining that we must live a life as God instructs, we could misinterpret that to mean that we don't need to obey law.
Rom_6:14 For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace.
3Jn_1:11 Dearfriend, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; theone who does evil has not seenGod.

Some people believe that when we have that wonderful experience that happens when we accept all Christ means to us and we become a new person in Christ, then our sins are automatically forgiven. We automatically follow the Holy Spirit. But when that happens we are babies in Christ, we must learn, pray and grow.

When God taught us to pray it was for "daily" bread. Christ gave a short version of the prayer the Jewish people prayed every morning, every day they asked forgiveness. Christ meant for us to use this as a guide for our daily prayers, also.

 

[chasten]

Forgive me for using you as an example but you happen to have brought up part of the reason for this thread.
You start out saying that one has to repent and believe in Jesus and they are forgiven, then say "...they are declared righteous because of their faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice, and the guilt, penalty, and power of sin is removed." [In other words, they are forgiven of their sins, right?]
All of the above scripture given is about faith and believing for one to be declared righteousness before God. Where is the repentance for salvation?
I'm not saying that it isn't in the bible, but if these scriptures and many others that talk about receiving eternal life are to be true, then they should be able to stand as is, without anything being added to it.
For example, the verse below mentions nothing about repentance for one to become a child of God. And yet Jesus says that all scripture is true and must be fulfilled or come to pass. John says even to them that believe on Jesus' name shall become a child of God. Is this scripture incomplete? Does it need help from other verses in the bible to make it the whole truth rather than half a truth? So what is it?
Don't misunderstand me, I am not attacking you by any means, but this is something I have seen for quite some time now, and that being that people will tell you that you have to repent to be saved then almost in the same sentence tell that same person that all they have to do is believe or have faith and they will be saved. I see a slight contradiction in what people believe concerning this subject.
Joh 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Thanks for you post.



It really shouldnt be as much "God needs to forgive your sins" as it should be "You want God to forgive your sins." Is the only reason you say that your a sinner, is because thats what the bible tells you, you are? OR do you mean it?
God does not want you to be unhappy, or hurt. In fact he has given us rules to follow for EXACTLY that reason. He wants you to prosper, and led a happy, healthy life. If I had a dime for everytime before I became a christian that I said he wasnt real, and that I hated him. I would never enter heaven. So maybe our gift of repentance, isnt so that he can forgive you of your 'sin'. But so that you KNOW he forgives you. And whenever you decide to stop blaming him for the thoughts, and bad situations that happen in your life, you'll realize that he's still waiting on you, and still loves you. And ALWAYs has. From the beginning of time, until this moment. Nobody cares about your sin. God cares about HIS relationship. He loves those who love him, and those who seek him shall find him. God is love. Its really not that difficult of a concept.

 

[PS]

If you notice none of the scriptures tell us when we are justified except it is after we believe in God and have faith in him, after we repent of our sins and are forgiven.

However forgiven sins still exist, we did them and they are forgiven and forgotten but nobody can deny they happened and if sins are as filthy rags, then there won't be any filthy rags in heaven. So what happens? Those filthy rags need to be cleansed and the stain removed.

The cleansing is done by Jesus, whose blood cleanses from all sin and one day we will stand before Christ at the Judgement Seat who will say in effect, "I find no fault in this person who is blameless, pure and holy. I order this record to be struck from the book." With that our sins will be blotted out as though they never happened and they are expunged from the record. Then the filthy rags that we are have been restored by the second Adam to the same state and condition of the first Adam before sin entered in.

I have typed this straight in from memory and if I have made mistakes please tell me, thanks.

 

[svedbygrace]

Everyone Christ died for, in and by His Death alone, they all are both Justified and forgiven, even while they themselves are enemies. Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[PS]

Everyone Christ died for, in and by His Death alone, they all are both Justified and forgiven, even while they themselves are enemies. Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I will give you that, I got the timing wrong, I thought it was at the judgement but instead we are justified in the sight of the law at salvation.

OK, my bad. Cheers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you think?
Does one have to repent of their sins in order for them to be forgiven of their sins for them to be born again.

One has to repent in order to have faith in what Christ says, one who does not repent is still trusting self, or will not admit they are a sinner and separated from God.

Does God have to forgive one of their sins in order for them to go to heaven?

Scripture says because of sin, we are dead. Meaning as long as sin is charged to our account, we are dead. The charges must be dropped (justification) and we declared right before the penalty is removed. So yes.

Does one have to keep repenting of their sins after they are born again to prevent them from losing their salvation?

1. Does not make sense. How can you admit something you did is sin (repent) and then forget it is a sin and have the need to repent again? You can;t repent of something you already admit is a sin, even if you struggle with doing it.
2. We will never be perfect. God either gave us eternal life the moment we confessed his son, or he did not. those who try to say we must keep repenting or lose salvation do not believe in eternal life or the promise made by God based on the work of his son.

What requirements have to be met for one to be justified and made righteous before God?

1. Humility, without it, you will still try to save yourself
2. Faith in the completed work of Christ, without out it, you will just merely believe, but have no faith, or not believe at all. and will not be saved. because you have literally denied the promises of God based on his sons FINISHED work!