IS GOD SOVEREIGN

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#21
Its a tough subject I know.. Here is a short video. which brings it from a theological discussion to real life...God's sovereignty applied in real life. Made me think in how God works '''ALL'' things ....acording to his purpose.


Whatever your position on this issue, I hope you watch this..a bit theology applied in real life. It brought a tear to my eye. It involves a family.



[video=youtube;CLV_KZOj0R8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLV_KZOj0R8[/video]
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#22
I'm still waiting for the scriptures that show that Jesus brought sickness and destruction to people...seeing that He is the exact representation of the Father's true nature. He came to reveal the Father to us because He said no one knew Him.

So, please show me the scriptures that show Jesus brings evil to people...thanks...scriptures shown be our final say in all matters....in this case Jesus is perfect theology..so His live shows us the true nature of the Father.


Its a tough subject I know.. Here is a short video. which brings it from a theological discussion to real life...God's sovereignty applied in real life. Made me think in how God works '''ALL'' things ....acording to his purpose.


Whatever your position on this issue, I hope you watch this..a bit theology applied in real life. It brought a tear to my eye. It involves a family.



[video=youtube;CLV_KZOj0R8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLV_KZOj0R8[/video]
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#23
I watched it and you are right, it is sad what sin in this world has brought to some people. God will work with us wherever we are in life.

I see that Mr. Sproule is a cessationist and of course his doctrinal beliefs would be very different from many others...and he has a right to believe whatever he wants.

Jesus is the will of the Father revealed - not our experiences. The problem is that when we allow circumstances to dictate to us what truth is - we have it backwards...we should have the scriptures reveal to us what truth.

God can and will use everything He can to reveal Himself to all of us no matter what situation we find ourselves in....and He uses those in all situations to reveal Himself to others as well. There are no second class children of our Lord.

To say that God brings these sicknesses to people is not consistent with what Jesus revealed of the Father no matter how much we try to "reason" everything out. Jesus is perfect theology of the exact nature of our Father.

We have a good, loving Father and great Lord!


Its a tough subject I know.. Here is a short video. which brings it from a theological discussion to real life...God's sovereignty applied in real life. Made me think in how God works '''ALL'' things ....acording to his purpose.


Whatever your position on this issue, I hope you watch this..a bit theology applied in real life. It brought a tear to my eye. It involves a family.



[video=youtube;CLV_KZOj0R8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLV_KZOj0R8[/video]
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#24
I'm still waiting for the scriptures that show that Jesus brought sickness and destruction to people...seeing that He is the exact representation of the Father's true nature. He came to reveal the Father to us because He said no one knew Him.

So, please show me the scriptures that show Jesus brings evil to people...thanks...scriptures shown be our final say in all matters....in this case Jesus is perfect theology..so His live shows us the true nature of the Father.
Hi grace777,

I have shown scripture in every post. And I was disappointed you did not watch the video I posted (its 12 mins long and you posted only a few moments after I posted it), It is very heart warming to see a family live and love the Lord no matter what he allows and gives. I paid you the courtesy and watched what you posted, before commenting.

I sense you feel strongly on this matter and that can be a good thing. Aslong as you are not allowing the thought that your control of things overides God. I understand that you think you are protecting God from slander that somehow if he allows evil or uses evil for his purposes that God is the author of sin.. I do understand.

I'll refer to one of yur posts, you mentioned Hitler. An evil, evil man I agree. Now, regarding Hitler I'll ask these questions:

1) Did God know what Hitler was going to do? YES

2) Could God have stopped Hitler at anytime? YES

3) Did God allow Hitler to carry outevil? Yes

The very fact that God did not stop Hitler (when we think he should have) means that he Allowed Hitler to do the evil he did. We don't the reasons the whys and whats. But God does.

God knows all things... and he allows all things to happen. Anyhow, you said you wanted scriture, Ill just send you back to my posts which give plenty. Hopefully you find them helpful.

Post # 9 and 12. and please watch the video, I am sure you will find it heart warming. Its about his disabled granddaughter.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#25
I watched the video which by now you will see my comments on it and it is awful about what happened to that family. God can bring beauty out of it...but He is not the author of it nor is it His will.

Hitler is just an example of trying to justify that God sent Hitler to bring about destruction by allowing Hitler to do what he did.....you do this because of your beliefs. I understand that. Just because things happen in this world it doesn't mean it is God's will. God does not sanction everything that happens on this earth.

There will come a day when Jesus comes back where all things will be dealt with. God is sovereign and His purposes will prevail. God works with us now on this earth to bring the message of the gospel of the grace of Jesus. We are His body here on the earth.

You have not shown scriptures showing that Jesus brought sickness and destruction to people seeing as He is the exact representation of the true nature of the Father.

I will let you off the hook brother as we both know there are no scriptures showing that Jesus brought sickness to people or destruction to them.

We just have different views on evil and God....which is fine..He will work it all out when we see Him. Bless you and have a great night!


Hi grace777,

I have shown scripture in every post. And I was disappointed you did not watch the video I posted (its 12 mins long and you posted only a few moments after I posted it), It is very heart warming to see a family live and love the Lord no matter what he allows and gives. I paid you the courtesy and watched what you posted, before commenting.

I sense you feel strongly on this matter and that can be a good thing. Aslong as you are not allowing the thought that your control of things overides God. I understand that you think you are protecting God from slander that somehow if he allows evil or uses evil for his purposes that God is the author of sin.. I do understand.

I'll refer to one of yur posts, you mentioned Hitler. An evil, evil man I agree. Now, regarding Hitler I'll ask these questions:

1) Did God know what Hitler was going to do? YES

2) Could God have stopped Hitler at anytime? YES

3) Did God allow Hitler to carry outevil? Yes

The very fact that God did not stop Hitler (when we think he should have) means that he Allowed Hitler to do the evil he did. We don't the reasons the whys and whats. But God does.

God knows all things... and he allows all things to happen. Anyhow, you said you wanted scriture, Ill just send you back to my posts which give plenty. Hopefully you find them helpful.

Post # 9 and 12. and please watch the video, I am sure you will find it heart warming. Its about his disabled granddaughter.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#26
I watched the video which by now you will see my comments on it and it is awful about what happened to that family. God can bring beauty out of it.I agree..but He is not the author of it I have already said this to you..post 12.nor is it His will If God allows it, it is his will!

Hitler is just an example of trying to justify that God sent Hitler to bring about destruction by allowing Hitler to do what he did.....you do this because of your beliefs. I understand that. Just because things happen in this world it doesn't mean it is God's will. God does not sanction everything that happen See above and scripture in posts 9 and 12

There will come a day when Jesus comes back where all things will be dealt with. God is sovereign and His purposes will prevail. God works with us now on this earth to bring the message of the gospel of the grace of Jesus. We are His body here on the earth.

You have not shown scriptures showing that Jesus brought sickness and destruction to people seeing as He is the exact representation of the true nature of the Father. You do believe that Jesus is God... see scripture in posts 9 and 12 and have a quick read of revelations.

I will let you off the hook brother as we both know there are no scriptures showing that Jesus brought sickness to people or destruction to them. Is Jesus God grace777, I think you will agree that he is...Please read scripture from posts 9 and 12, oh and you do not what Jesus is going to do at the end of the age?

We just have different views on evil and God....which is fine..He will work it all out when we see Him. Bless you and have a great night!

I have highlighted my answers in red above. I did not see one scripture post and yet you demanded it from me. Its ok though.

Have a nice evening grace 777.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#27
There is a whole thread that are full of scriptures that reveal the will and true nature of our Father as shown by Jesus while He was on this earth..

I won't bog down this thread with them but will leave the thread link and the posts #'s for anyone interested in seeing the scriptures that reveal the will of the Father and clearly shown in Jesus's life on earth.

Jesus is always perfect theology and He always messes with our religious beliefs and experiences. He did back then and He does to this day as well.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/131130-jesus-willing-healed.html

Post #1, #9, #41, #55, #58 ( this one shows that healing is in the gospel of grace when preached by Paul ) , #59, #100
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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51
#28
There is a whole thread that are full of scriptures that reveal the will and true nature of our Father as shown by Jesus while He was on this earth..

I won't bog down this thread with them but will leave the thread link and the posts #'s for anyone interested in seeing the scriptures that reveal the will of the Father and clearly shown in Jesus's life on earth.

Jesus is always perfect theology and He always messes with our religious beliefs and experiences. He did back then and He does to this day as well.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/131130-jesus-willing-healed.html

Post #1, #9, #41, #55, #58 ( this one shows that healing is in the gospel of grace when preached by Paul ) , #59, #100

Hi grace777,

Thanks for your post. I have read what you have said in the thread which covers the topic of God healing. The topic here is Is God Sovereign. and of course what that entails. regarding kingship - and more narrowly of what we where discussing...that God indeed is a King who is in charge and in control always.

Its way of topic, but thanks for the links regarding your view on God's healing, even though thats not what we are actually discussing.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#29
"And we know ALL things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

In this video, both the father (a great theologian, by the way!) and the son are able to see the mercy and love of God in this little girl, who was born abnormally. I can see the good coming from this too!

The fact that the video was introduced by Joni Erikson Tada, who has been a quadrapeligic since she hit her head while swimming as a young teenager, also speaks volumes as to the purposes of God.

The fact is, all those presenting this life as perfect, are not going to truly win a single soul to Christ. Unless they lie, and guarantee some kind of healing. And the reason I say "lie" is because it not our choice as to whether God heals or not. Because everyone has some issues to deal with in life, whether physical, financial, relational, familial, etc, etc. People lie to themselves when they come to God expecting a perfect life. Instead, people need to hear the true gospel, that there is sin and suffering in this world, and Jesus Christ came to save us - and the perfection will be complete when we die, or when Jesus returns.

I saw Joni in the 1980's on her tour in Vancouver. She announced her engagement, which gave some of the single women some hope. Because if a quadrapeligic can get married, then so could they.

Her testimony and joy was amazing. I have read a few of her books, and she does amazing work with the handicapped, not only here, but in poor countries around the world. She collect wheel chairs, and other helpful devices for people who have no other way of getting them.

She also lobbies the government on the value of human life. Euthanasia is rearing its ugly head in Canada. And in countries in Europe that have opened up the door to "assisted dying" the slippery slope of killing people who do not need to be killed was reached in record time. And it has come to places in the US too!

How much better to care for the sick, the infirm, the aged and the disabled. I was never happier, than working as a chaplain in long term care. Partly because I could help people who were hurting. But mostly, because those people taught me so much more than could be imagined. How to live life totally for God, and to accept whatever caused them to have to go into long term care and totally love God anyway.

This whole health and wealth gospel really breaks down when compared to reality. Fact is, pretty much everyone gets sick sooner or later, and grow old, if they are lucky! We don't even have access to these old saints anymore. I was so privileged to talk with the ladies who were 97, 98, 99, and 100. Their inner strength, in spite of being bed ridden or wheelchair bound, was amazing. Their total trust in God inspired me to stand against people who demand perfection in this life instead of growing in character in God.

Grace777, you have said that Joni, RC Sproule and his son and granddaughter somehow malign the character of God. You are completely wrong, and you have never been able to explain away this passage, which acknowledges suffering in this world, and the incredible good that can come out of it.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, for the love of God has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

This has been my life verses for many years, as I deal with the constant pain and suffering of severe Rheumatoid Arthritis. Next week, we are going to be studying this passage in Greek. I look forward to going deeper into the theology of this passage, as well as passages in Romans 8.

This entire Word Faith movement comes out of an entitled North American church, who dares to claim that God does not allow suffering in this life. In no time in history, has the church believed that we are entitled not to suffer. Now true, some people get away with less suffering than others, but I leave that totally to God.

God is completely sovereign and really loving God means accepting good along with the bad. And no, God did not create the bad, but humans did in the Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve opened the door to evil, and perfect creation gradually went downhill, as the genetic load of mutations increased.

Here is what John says about the sovereignty of God.

"Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns." Rev. 19:6

 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#30
This is a great scripture that shows God can bring good out of bad things done...in this case the life of Joseph. This does not show that God caused his brother's to treat him like they did. God doesn't do things to bring about evil.
The issue is 'is God in control of all things'. God allows evil yet turns it for good.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#31
Grace777x70

Would you at least see God as a person who not only sees evil happen, but has the power to immediately stop it, but doesn't...yet oftentimes takes the evil done and turn it around for good?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#32
I have read Joni's book and she has a wonderful attitude for the horrible things that she has had to endure. I am not saying that they are maligning God. I also agree that God can make good things out of the evil that comes to us in this world.

I am saying that we are not to exalt circumstances and experiences over truth. It is without a doubt not God's will for us to be sick. It violates Jesus work here on the earth at the cross.

Why aren't all healed?...why aren't all saved when they hear the gospel?..the answer is most likely in there. We see through a glass darkly and when we see Him we will know why. Still Jesus is very plain in His representation of the nature of the Father and He did come to do His will.

Jesus is perfect theology. Jesus came and revealed the will of the Father on this earth. I know this conflicts with what our experiences tell us but it does not negate the truth of Christ revealing the will of the Father. We are elevating circumstances and experiences over truth.


I understand when the circumstances of life come at us like a flood and they can bring evil with them. I'm simply saying that God is not the author of sickness nor does He bring it on people. I find that some people that do not believe it is always God's will to heal ( no matter how much Jesus showed otherwise ) are people that have chronic illnesses. I don't blame them as it is a hard attack from the enemy to be bearing constantly.

We are to weep with those that weep and rejoice with those that rejoice.

Romans 5:3-5 does not in any form say that sickness from the enemy is God's will for us. The word "suffering" in your translation as you most likely know means = Oppression, affliction, tribulation, pressure, distress. No where in the scripture was this word used to denote sicknesses even though it was used 45 times.

Sickness and suffering for Christ are 2 completely different things. Sin and sickness were taken care of at the cross by our Lord Jesus and there are lot's of scriptures that bear this out. Suffering for the cause of Christ is a gimmie in this world.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil who is constantly trying to kill and destroy us believers.

1 John 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. ( literally lies in the wicked )


I realize that there are many people suffering from attacks of the enemy on our bodies and minds but they are not from God. God meets us where we are at in life and we all know we look through a glass darkly. Knowing Jesus and His finished work is always the answer to all things in this life.

I am sorry that you are being attacked for years by the enemy and I do pray for you. I bless you and speak life and wholeness to you.

Soon, we will all be with the Lord and rejoicing in His goodness and grace towards us.

"And we know ALL things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28


Grace777, you have said that Joni, RC Sproule and his son and granddaughter somehow malign the character of God. You are completely wrong, and you have never been able to explain away this passage, which acknowledges suffering in this world, and the incredible good that can come out of it.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, for the love of God has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
#33
It takes so long to read everyones posts and watch all the films so i didn't (sorry), but from what i did read it seams to be a debate over Gods control of evil.
Gods order and plan was a sinless universe, No knowledge of evil, And God was sinless and without any evil in Him.
But God is also LOVE and love doesn't force, so He needed to allow us to choose to obey or to disobey (sin).
Knowing what happened God had to destroy sin (all of it, including us,) or save us from sin, which meant permitting the sin to grow until the harvest.
We can't understand WHY?? things happen the way they do sometimes, but i know God is in control because all life and all power is His, time was created by Him and without Him nothing would exist.
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#34
So, would you say that if I went out and killed a bunch of people that God being in control..wants me to do that so that He could make something good out of it?

God will and can make all things good in some way but He does not commission it to happen so that good will come. He allows it because He allows us to have our free will. BUT there is coming a day when He will come and in His sovereignty will effect His purposes and bring an end to all evil.

Inn the meantime we are to work with Him to bring about His will on the earth until He comes back. We can choose to do things or not but this does not mean He sanctions all of it.

That's why Jesus said to pray.."Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...not everything done on this earth is Gods' will.

The issue is 'is God in control of all things'. God allows evil yet turns it for good.
 
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ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#35
So, would you say that if I went out and killed a bunch of people that God being in control..wants me to do that so that He could make something good out of it?

God will and can make all things good in some way but He does not commission it to happen so that good will come. He allows it because He allows us to have our free will. BUT there is coming a day when He will come and in His sovereignty will effect His purposes and bring and end to all evil.
If you were to go out and kill a bunch of people and God did not stop you, it would by default be his intent that you went out and killed those people for his purpose to be made manifest in some way. If this isn't true, he would have stopped you because no one can resist his will. The God you are presenting is more along the lines of the Gnostic gods or Aeons who are limited in might and power and subject to the will of man.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#36
That's what your religious beliefs are telling you...and you are entitled to them. Jesus is perfect theology and will remain so no matter what we believe otherwise. He showed us the will and true nature of the Father.

I understand where you are coming from with your religious beliefs and you are entitled to them...:)

His perfect will shall be done when He comes back and in the meantime He can make good things come out of the evil that attacks us. it's in His nature....He is awesome!



If you were to go out and kill a bunch of people and God did not stop you, it would by default be his intent that you went out and killed those people for his purpose to be made manifest in some way. If this isn't true, he would have stopped you because no one can resist his will. The God you are presenting is more along the lines of the Gnostic gods or Aeons who are limited in might and power and subject to the will of man.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#37
So, would you say that if I went out and killed a bunch of people that God being in control..wants me to do that so that He could make something good out of it?

God will and can make all things good in some way but He does not commission it to happen so that good will come. He allows it because He allows us to have our free will. BUT there is coming a day when He will come and in His sovereignty will effect His purposes and bring an end to all evil.

Inn the meantime we are to work with Him to bring about His will on the earth until He comes back. We can choose to do things or not but this does not mean He sanctions all of it.

That's why Jesus said to pray.."Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...not everything done on this earth is Gods' will.
No, it is not God's will that we kill each other, i don't see why you keep trying to introduce that angle.

I believe God's sovereignty trumps man's will but in such a way that it keeps intact our free choice and responsibility.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#38
That's what your religious beliefs are telling you...and you are entitled to them. Jesus is perfect theology and will remain so no matter what we believe otherwise. He showed us the will and true nature of the Father.

I understand where you are coming from with your religious beliefs and you are entitled to them...:)

His perfect will shall be done when He comes back and in the meantime He can make good things come out of the evil that attacks us. it's in His nature....He is awesome!
Look, if it is God's will that everyone be healthy and prosperous, you have to contend with the fact that not many are healthy and prosperous. Therefore, you have to conclude that God's will is being usurped by human will and effort, thus robbing God of his sovereignty. The logical conclusion to this is that God is a simple bystander who has no control over his creation and is subject to the evil of man.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#39
okie dokie......:).. I know that God will have His will and purposes fulfilled in the end! I think we both can agree on that.

No, it is not God's will that we kill each other, i don't see why you keep trying to introduce that angle.

I believe God's sovereignty trumps man's will but in such a way that it keeps intact our choice and responsibility.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#40
okie dokie......:).. I know that God will have His will and purposes fulfilled in the end! I think we both can agree on that.
Yes, including our healing, even if it waits until we receive our new body.