Is grace a license to sin?

[AnandaHya]

oh so this is where its coming from.

I tend not to comment on your posts Red if I disagree with you. You have a hard time taking any sort of comment not in the affirmative in a positive way...sides fungus eats upon decaying things and converts the into nutrients that can be used by plants, so I guess its not that insulting if you take it that way....

Your talk about sin is empty and dead. If we sin, do you think that Christ sits there and decides whether He wants to condemn us or not or what He is going to do with us without violating our free volition. NO !!!!!!!!!!!!! He springs into action and starts having grace super-abound toward us. He goes right to the Father and becomes our advocate and tells the Father that our sin has already been paid for and judged through death when it was imputed to Him on the cross. He will not let us be judged for our sin, for he was already judged for it, and until you and thousands of other believers understand that you will never be able to minister the life of Christ to anyone and your gospel will be void of resurrection life.

not going to jump into the first part, just seems like a mud fight...

however this part is not how God reacts.

he does not start having grace super abound toward us. at least He does not advocate the we get forgiven even before we repent.

He chastens us and tells us that we are wrong and brings us to godly repentance and we are broken with humble and contrite hearts, realizing our sins and our inablity to save ourselves. then He intercedes and gives us mercy and allows grace to teach us and not condemn us.

God still judges justly and that sin is wrong. His children He rebukes and cleanses of those sins by leading them to repentance. the children of Satan are the ones who are never rebuked or contrite about their sins.

I don't want to make you mad but your words don't ring true.

 

[Red33]

oh so this is where its coming from.

I tend not to comment on your posts Red if I disagree with you. You have a hard time taking any sort of comment not in the affirmative in a positive way...sides fungus eats upon decaying things and converts the into nutrients that can be used by plants, so I guess its not that insulting if you take it that way....



not going to jump into the first part, just seems like a mud fight...

however this part is not how God reacts.

he does not start having grace super abound toward us. at least He does not advocate the we get forgiven even before we repent.

He chastens us and tells us that we are wrong and brings us to godly repentance and we are broken with humble and contrite hearts, realizing our sins and our inablity to save ourselves. then He intercedes and gives us mercy and allows grace to teach us and not condemn us.

God still judges justly and that sin is wrong. His children He rebukes and cleanses of those sins by leading them to repentance. the children of Satan are the ones who are never rebuked or contrite about their sins.

I don't want to make you mad but your words don't ring true.

Anyone can say whatever they want at any time, that is up to them.

The reason that Jesus Christ is our advocate and pleads our case is because He was our substitute. Jesus is not waiting for any one to repent of their sin before He gives them grace, He is waiting for us to come to Him by faith when we sin, so that He can run interference for any condemnation or judgment on our part who He has justified with His own blood. For Him to do nothing or wait for us to repent would make the cross and His blood of none effect instantly.

We do not reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin through repentance, we reckon ourselves dead to sin by faith through acknowledging what Christ has done by putting away our sin and justifying us by grace through His own shed blood. That is what we reckon upon because we have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ liveth in us. Jesus redeemed us so that we don't have to be focused on sin all the time, but rather to be occupied with Him until He comes. When we sin we confess it and lay it aside without having to go through all this process of sorrow and repentance.

Paul said that when this happened to him he reckoned it was not him but sin that dwelt in him and he did not get occupied with his sin. What he did do is thank God that there was no condemnation and that the Spirit of life had made him free from the law of sin and death. Some would accuse Paul of not being honest about his sin. There are those that always want to remind us of our sin and keep telling us to repent and Paul was reminding us to be occupied with the Spirit of life that has set us free and delivered from the law of sin and death.

You will never get any believer to be free from sin if you keep pounding them with repentance, instead they need the Spirit of life that comes through grace as they reckon to be dead to the very sin they are guilty of. That is how we are kept from condemnation in the heart. We acknowledge our sin and the Spirit of Life reminds us of what Christ did to our sin so that we can confess our sin with no guilt because we place that sin on the body of Christ where it was crucified. That is why the blood of Christ and the love of God covers a multitude of sin. Now stand back and watch the backlash and discern what spirit it is coming from as it related to the cross and blood of Christ and the believers freedom through justification.

 

[Crossfire]

If your local church is a soul winning church and has a fellowship in the grace of God, don't ever quit and do it more and more and continue to build one another up in that grace and seek out the lost. They that turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars of heaven (Dan 12:3). My local assembly has been raised up to be a local expression of the body of Church as only one of many. It has been a soul winning church since the early 1960's. Over those years it has trained up and sent out hundreds of full-time missionaries and pastors who have established over (400) churches in some (50) countries through preaching the gospel and seeking the lost. There has never been a week to my knowledge that souls have not been added to the church. I don't say this to compare or boast except in the Lord, who has given of His grace to make this happen. One local assembly that started with a handful of believers in a run-down church building, who never stop praying and believing God for lost souls.

The greatest kind of fruit is a transformed life. That happens through much prayer, through ministering grace and honoring the word and doctrine being preached on a daily basis. This allows every believer to be filled with grace and truth, to have fellowship with one another in that grace and to have sound doctrine and words of faith to walk by in this present evil word. Since the mid 1980's the word has been preached faithfully and made available 3-4 times daily to build up believers in the body of Christ. There is so much more that God has done but that should suffice and through all of these things we have gotten to know and have fellowship with our Saviour.

That's great Red, it's good that your church is pursuing souls. I could list several things about my church however, I would rather not because chances are that a large number on this website might recognize the ministry that I belong to. I really don't want to go through the hassle of defending my church's beliefs every day by all of those who would oppose our beliefs and attempt to viciously attack it.

Regardless, the disagreement that you and I have seem so to revolve around this one area; the fact that I simply do not believe that the Lord saves us just so we can continue to be bound in sin. While it's true that most Christians today seem to be bound by something, it's not because that's how God intended it to work but rather because of doctrines of compromise which make allowances for sin. I can not begin to count the number of people who I have both met and personally ministered to who in an instant were delivered from lust, delivered from depression, delivered from drugs and alcohol who continue to stay free, walking in true victory for years.

I know for a fact that it's within God's will for our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit to make a clean break from sin. It happens for some at salvation, that is if they are properly ministered to (discipled) from the start. Others it may take years because they are bound by wrong religious ideas and mindsets that have to be broken before the grip of sin can be broken.

 

[Crossfire]

Anyone can say whatever they want at any time, that is up to them.

The reason that Jesus Christ is our advocate and pleads our case is because He was our substitute. Jesus is not waiting for any one to repent of their sin before He gives them grace, He is waiting for us to come to Him by faith when we sin, so that He can run interference for any condemnation or judgment on our part who He has justified with His own blood. For Him to do nothing or wait for us to repent would make the cross and His blood of none effect instantly.

We do not reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin through repentance, we reckon ourselves dead to sin by faith through acknowledging what Christ has done by putting away our sin and justifying us by grace through His own shed blood. That is what we reckon upon because we have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ liveth in us. Jesus redeemed us so that we don't have to be focused on sin all the time, but rather to be occupied with Him until He comes. When we sin we confess it and lay it aside without having to go through all this process of sorrow and repentance.

Paul said that when this happened to him he reckoned it was not him but sin that dwelt in him and he did not get occupied with his sin. What he did do is thank God that there was no condemnation and that the Spirit of life had made him free from the law of sin and death. Some would accuse Paul of not being honest about his sin. There are those that always want to remind us of our sin and keep telling us to repent and Paul was reminding us to be occupied with the Spirit of life that has set us free and delivered from the law of sin and death.

You will never get any believer to be free from sin if you keep pounding them with repentance, instead they need the Spirit of life that comes through grace as they reckon to be dead to the very sin they are guilty of. That is how we are kept from condemnation in the heart. We acknowledge our sin and the Spirit of Life reminds us of what Christ did to our sin so that we can confess our sin with no guilt because we place that sin on the body of Christ where it was crucified. That is why the blood of Christ and the love of God covers a multitude of sin. Now stand back and watch the backlash and discern what spirit it is coming from as it related to the cross and blood of Christ and the believers freedom through justification.

Red, the only times I talk about repentance on this website is when repentance is being improperly represented. Most times I talk about being led by the Holy Spirit who is the divine nature of God in us. It is through fellowship with God and time spent in the word that our minds are transformed and wrong religious mindsets are broken thus allowing us to grow in our Spiritual walk and to be free from various sinful tendencies. I would so much rather talk about this than having to defend repentance but as long as people on this website keep trying to redefine repentance in order to make allowances for sin, I will take a stand.

 

[Canadian36]

So do you mean that like under the new testiment any sin you do is actually no sin at all sin it's already covered? Not sure I follow.

 

[Red33]

So do you mean that like under the new testiment any sin you do is actually no sin at all sin it's already covered? Not sure I follow.

All sin was imputed to Jesus Christ on the cross, ALL SIN, not just some sin or many sins or sins of the past, but ALL SIN. These sins will never be imputed to any sinner whether they are cleansed or not from sin. If they do not believe upon Christ the blood will never be able to cleanse them from the sin that was judicially dealt with and put away through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and they will die in their sin unclean as an unsaved sinner. The soul must be redeemed and cleansed by the blood of Christ for the sinner to be accepted by the Father as being justified, complete and made righteous.

This happens to the sinner when He puts His trust in the Lord and believes in his heart unto the righteousness of God. From that point on the believer is clean every whit (Jn 13:10). If he sins in any area that sin is not imputed to him nor is it charged against him because he has already been cleansed and made complete. If that were not true he would never be accepted by the Father. We must be cleansed by the blood to be accepted and that is a once and for all completed act that does not need to be repeated.

If we sin, we need to name that sin to God and go on by faith in the blood of Christ knowing that we have been justified and made complete. The sin temporarily broke our fellowship and when we name it we are restored by grace. The blood has taken care of the sin so that all we have to do is operate by faith, confess the sin that has been put away and move on. That is operating in the finished work of the cross and we are upheld by the word of His power through the finished work of His Son. No guilt, no condemnation, no penalty and no probation. If we sow to the flesh we will reap of the flesh but that is not a penalty but a consequence of living in the flesh that is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit. If it leads to sin and we are convicted by the Spirit, we confess it as sin before God, receive grace and don't let our heart condemn us. This is the liberty that we stand in, the freedom to abstain from sin through grace and if we fail, we name it and we are restored by grace immediately without probation from God.

 

[Crossfire]

These sins will never be imputed to any sinner whether they are cleansed or not from sin.

If it were not for the line above, I would have agreed with you completely. God does not ignore unrepentant sin. Such is a cancer that not only hinders our spiritual growth but actually serves to push us down a slippery slope into worse sin.

 

[Skinski7]

All sin was imputed to Jesus Christ on the cross, ALL SIN, not just some sin or many sins or sins of the past, but ALL SIN. These sins will never be imputed to any sinner whether they are cleansed or not from sin. If they do not believe upon Christ the blood will never be able to cleanse them from the sin that was judicially dealt with and put away through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and they will die in their sin unclean as an unsaved sinner. The soul must be redeemed and cleansed by the blood of Christ for the sinner to be accepted by the Father as being justified, complete and made righteous.

Notice that no scriptures are used when discussing this cleansing of sin.

This verse here speaks of PAST sins. When the false teachers speak of sins being imputed to Jesus on the cross they are speaking of all sin, past, present and future.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The reason that it is sins that are past that are remitted is because to be cleansed of sin one must be walking in the light.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If one is walking in the light they are not walking in sin. Walking in the light does not remit sin and that is why the blood is needed. When the condition of walking in the light is met the sin offering of Jesus Christ is applied to the repentant soul and the past sins are remitted, exactly like Rom 3:25 states.

There is no scripture in the entire Bible which says that "future sins" are already forgiven. Such a teaching is heresy and is only supported by conjecture as well as completely ignoring the verses which clearly state it is past sins.

Peter also writes of "past sins" when he speaks of how necessary it is to add to our faith. He says that someone who does not add to their faith will forget that their past sins were purged.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Those who add to their faith by giving diligence to make sure their calling and election is sure won't fall. These people will enter the kingdom. Pastors will never teach this verse nor will they teach about past sins because it contradicts their theology.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

This happens to the sinner when He puts His trust in the Lord and believes in his heart unto the righteousness of God. From that point on the believer is clean every whit (Jn 13:10). If he sins in any area that sin is not imputed to him nor is it charged against him because he has already been cleansed and made complete. If that were not true he would never be accepted by the Father. We must be cleansed by the blood to be accepted and that is a once and for all completed act that does not need to be repeated.

Notice that here it is implied that simply by "trusting" in Jesus and believing in the heart that the cleansing takes place. John 13:10 is used a proof text.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

That is a good verse that really parallels John 8:36.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What you'll notice though is no reference is actually made to other scriptures which speak of being made clean. For example...

We are made clean through the word.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

We are made clean through obedience to the truth.

It is through initial obedience that one can walk in the light as He is in the light and come to touch that cleansing of the blood. The cleansing of past sin.

The false teachers seldom speak of being a doer of the word or being obedient. They leave that out because in their minds being a doer or being obedient is supplemental to salvation. In other words it is simply a fruit of salvation itself and not a component.

James clearly refuted this idea when he wrote...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James clearly said that in order to "receive" the implanted word that is able to save the soul one must first lay aside all wickedness. He then went on to day that one must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

This is because that salvation is wrought in the application of the word, hence purification comes through obedience to the truth.

Those who hear only are self deceived. They do not even know they are deceived and they are often the blind leading the blind, and both will fall into the ditch.

When one lays apart their sin in repentance they are no longer in a rebellious state to the working of God. Thus they put use the grace of God and the result is purity of heart.

Thus the blood cleanses them of their past sins, and they are cleansed in their heart through abiding in the vine, ie. yielding to Christ.

It is a beautiful thing.

If we sin, we need to name that sin to God and go on by faith in the blood of Christ knowing that we have been justified and made complete. The sin temporarily broke our fellowship and when we name it we are restored by grace. The blood has taken care of the sin so that all we have to do is operate by faith, confess the sin that has been put away and move on. That is operating in the finished work of the cross and we are upheld by the word of His power through the finished work of His Son. No guilt, no condemnation, no penalty and no probation. If we sow to the flesh we will reap of the flesh but that is not a penalty but a consequence of living in the flesh that is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit. If it leads to sin and we are convicted by the Spirit, we confess it as sin before God, receive grace and don't let our heart condemn us. This is the liberty that we stand in, the freedom to abstain from sin through grace and if we fail, we name it and we are restored by grace immediately without probation from God.

Here you can see it taught the consequence of willful sin only breaks fellowship. It will never disqualify anyone from the kingdom, as long as you have "faith" in the blood. This is what the false teachers teach.

Thus because they believe this they will never point to scriptures like the following...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.


In their eyes these sins will only break fellowship.

So what has grace become?

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace has become a license to sin to these people. They will of course deny it by saying you "should not sin" but they will cancel that our by implying that "you can" and not surely die because they believe it only breaks fellowship.

Whenever I have written pastors asking them if a child molester has to stop molesting children in order to be saved and forgiven by God they all say "No."

When I write back and ask that if a child molester would have to stop molesting children AFTER they are saved they also say "No."

This is because of the underlying theology they believe. They will also say "you must want to stop molesting children" or "have a desire to stop" but they will never say stop.

For proof of this simply email any pastor and ask them. They all answer the same way and thus prove that they do not understand what repentance is.



For anyone interested in further information please peruse this link or contact me for free materials.

Preaching the Lie

 

[hislastwalk]

When God pulled you out of sin, He also pulled sinfulness out of you.

 

[Grandpa]

When God pulled you out of sin, He also pulled sinfulness out of you.

Amen. He broke down the strongholds that were built against Him. Those strongholds kept us as slaves to sin.

When the strongholds are taken down sin no longer has dominion.

Thank You Lord Jesus for saving me.

 

[Red33]

Notice that no scriptures are used when discussing this cleansing of sin.

This verse here speaks of PAST sins. When the false teachers speak of sins being imputed to Jesus on the cross they are speaking of all sin, past, present and future.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The reason that it is sins that are past that are remitted is because to be cleansed of sin one must be walking in the light.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If one is walking in the light they are not walking in sin. Walking in the light does not remit sin and that is why the blood is needed. When the condition of walking in the light is met the sin offering of Jesus Christ is applied to the repentant soul and the past sins are remitted, exactly like Rom 3:25 states.

There is no scripture in the entire Bible which says that "future sins" are already forgiven. Such a teaching is heresy and is only supported by conjecture as well as completely ignoring the verses which clearly state it is past sins.

Peter also writes of "past sins" when he speaks of how necessary it is to add to our faith. He says that someone who does not add to their faith will forget that their past sins were purged.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Those who add to their faith by giving diligence to make sure their calling and election is sure won't fall. These people will enter the kingdom. Pastors will never teach this verse nor will they teach about past sins because it contradicts their theology.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.




Notice that here it is implied that simply by "trusting" in Jesus and believing in the heart that the cleansing takes place. John 13:10 is used a proof text.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

That is a good verse that really parallels John 8:36.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What you'll notice though is no reference is actually made to other scriptures which speak of being made clean. For example...

We are made clean through the word.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

We are made clean through obedience to the truth.

It is through initial obedience that one can walk in the light as He is in the light and come to touch that cleansing of the blood. The cleansing of past sin.

The false teachers seldom speak of being a doer of the word or being obedient. They leave that out because in their minds being a doer or being obedient is supplemental to salvation. In other words it is simply a fruit of salvation itself and not a component.

James clearly refuted this idea when he wrote...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James clearly said that in order to "receive" the implanted word that is able to save the soul one must first lay aside all wickedness. He then went on to day that one must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

This is because that salvation is wrought in the application of the word, hence purification comes through obedience to the truth.

Those who hear only are self deceived. They do not even know they are deceived and they are often the blind leading the blind, and both will fall into the ditch.

When one lays apart their sin in repentance they are no longer in a rebellious state to the working of God. Thus they put use the grace of God and the result is purity of heart.

Thus the blood cleanses them of their past sins, and they are cleansed in their heart through abiding in the vine, ie. yielding to Christ.

It is a beautiful thing.




Here you can see it taught the consequence of willful sin only breaks fellowship. It will never disqualify anyone from the kingdom, as long as you have "faith" in the blood. This is what the false teachers teach.

Thus because they believe this they will never point to scriptures like the following...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.


In their eyes these sins will only break fellowship.

So what has grace become?

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace has become a license to sin to these people. They will of course deny it by saying you "should not sin" but they will cancel that our by implying that "you can" and not surely die because they believe it only breaks fellowship.

Whenever I have written pastors asking them if a child molester has to stop molesting children in order to be saved and forgiven by God they all say "No."

When I write back and ask that if a child molester would have to stop molesting children AFTER they are saved they also say "No."

This is because of the underlying theology they believe. They will also say "you must want to stop molesting children" or "have a desire to stop" but they will never say stop.

For proof of this simply email any pastor and ask them. They all answer the same way and thus prove that they do not understand what repentance is.



For anyone interested in further information please peruse this link or contact me for free materials.

Preaching the Lie

This is probably going to be futile but tell me this, what sins of every believer did Jesus not pay for through His shed blood on the cross? You are trying to take a couple of verses that do not mean what you think and conform them to your own understanding. If Jesus was the propitiation of our sins and also the sins of the whole world, which of those sins was the blood of Christ not shed for? Which sins in your life, those you have committed in the past, those you might be living in now and those you may fail into in the future, have not been addressed by the blood of Christ? If in two months God sees you in His foreknowledge having a problem with a certain sin, do you think that His blood was not shed for that sin that would happen in two months from now? This is simply an immature assertion that the blood of Christ is not enough to take care of ALL sin.

You won't acknowledge this but here you go...

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (this refers to ALL sins and it can't refer to anything else)

If you want to rationalize that verse and tell us it means something else, well, we can't stop you, but you will be making a fool of yourself and wrestling that scripture to something destructive and that will be between you and God (2Pt 3:16). You are not thinking clearly nor in the Spirit and it is all naturally minded conclusions making the sacrifice of Christ incomplete and limits the blood of the atonement. You also condition God's mercy upon repentance and some screwed up idea about walking in the light. You have not been taught by a man of God who has been raised up for the church and for you that is rebellion and it's just as bad as witchcraft (1Sam 15:23). Are you going to get all puffed up now and let me have it. Go ahead it's your flesh.

 

[hislastwalk]

either all your sins are forgiven and are no longer held against you, or God lied.

 

[Red33]

If it were not for the line above, I would have agreed with you completely. God does not ignore unrepentant sin. Such is a cancer that not only hinders our spiritual growth but actually serves to push us down a slippery slope into worse sin.

I am speaking as to sin never being judicially imputed to the believer if they sin and fail to confess it. It will never be imputed to them because it was imputed to Christ and charged to Him. Every unbeliever that will be cast in the lake of fire (the second death) will be judged according to their works and not according to their sin. Their uncleansed sin means they are separated from God and need to be reconciled, so God removed the sin at the cross so that can happen. If they remain in unbelief they will die in their sin because they have not been cleansed by the blood of Christ even though judicially their sin was already judged through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. They will depart into the second death, both soul and body, as workers of iniquity and receive their just reward. You and I can do nothing about it once that unbeliever is dead for then comes their judgment. We must preach the gospel unto them now in all the world so that they can be cleansed from their sin.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Notice that no scriptures are used when discussing this cleansing of sin.
No, grace is not a license to sin. I agree with most of what you said before (that's why I snipped it) but the following I do question.

Here you can see it taught the consequence of willful sin only breaks fellowship. It will never disqualify anyone from the kingdom, as long as you have "faith" in the blood. This is what the false teachers teach.

I don't see where Red said anything about "wilful sin". But sin to the born again believer does break fellowship and it will not disqualify anyone. The whole context of 1 John 1 concerns broken fellowship through sin.
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. . . .If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Sin is the darkness we walk in if we fail to ask forgiveness and therefore remain out of fellowhip with others, God and Jesus Christ (v6) but once we ask forgiveness that fellowship is restored and we again walk in fellowship with one another, the Father and Jesus Christ. (7)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
So everyone at one point or another walks in darkness because everyone sins - if we deceive ourselves and say that we have not sinned then the truth is not in us but if we confess our wrongdoing then we are forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness therefore our fellowship is restored.

Thus because they believe this they will never point to scriptures like the following...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

v9 is speaking to the unrighteous - which we are no longer because we have been saved, we have been made righteous, we have been sanctified v11) And such were some of you: but ye are wahed, but ye are sanctified but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. We are made righteous by our faith in Jesus Christ being born again of God's seed - so when we sin now - it is considered broken fellowship because we can't loose our sonship.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. In their eyes these sins will only break fellowship.

Again this portion of scripture is speaking to the "children of disobedience" they "deserve the wrath of God" not born again believers - we have been saved from wrath (Romans 5:9) And no anything concerning unbelievers is total disobedience but again its different for the born again believer.

So what has grace become?

Grace is favor from God that none of us deserves but yet he freely gives.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again who is this speaking about - ungodly men, denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace has become a license to sin to these people. They will of course deny it by saying you "should not sin" but they will cancel that our by implying that "you can" and not surely die because they believe it only breaks fellowship.

Whenever I have written pastors asking them if a child molester has to stop molesting children in order to be saved and forgiven by God they all say "No."

When I write back and ask that if a child molester would have to stop molesting children AFTER they are saved they also say "No."

This is because of the underlying theology they believe. They will also say "you must want to stop molesting children" or "have a desire to stop" but they will never say stop.

For proof of this simply email any pastor and ask them. They all answer the same way and thus prove that they do not understand what repentance is.

For anyone interested in further information please peruse this link or contact me for free materials.

Preaching the Lie

As I said in the beginning - No, grace is not a license to sin. I believe that it is broken fellowship because that is the truth and context of 1 John 1. I would say that any inappropriate activity should be dealt with after one is born again. When we are born again we are washed and changed on the inside - But you have to realize that the flesh is flesh - the old man is our responsibility to change or to line up with what has happened on the inside (to correspond with the new man) - it ain't that easy!!!

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Notice that no scriptures are used when discussing this cleansing of sin.
No, grace is not a license to sin. I agree with most of what you said before (that's why I snipped it) but the following I do question.

I don't see where Red said anything about "wilful sin". But sin to the born again believer does break fellowship and it will not disqualify anyone. The whole context of 1 John 1 concerns broken fellowship through sin.
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. . . .If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Sin is the darkness we walk in if we fail to ask forgiveness and therefore remain out of fellowhip with others, God and Jesus Christ (v6) but once we ask forgiveness that fellowship is restored and we again walk in fellowship with one another, the Father and Jesus Christ. (7)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
So everyone at one point or another walks in darkness because everyone sins - if we deceive ourselves and say that we have not sinned then the truth is not in us but if we confess our wrongdoing then we are forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness therefore our fellowship is restored.

v9 is speaking to the unrighteous - which we are no longer because we have been saved, we have been made righteous, we have been sanctified v11) And such were some of you: but ye are wahed, but ye are sanctified but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. We are made righteous by our faith in Jesus Christ being born again of God's seed - so when we sin now - it is considered broken fellowship because we can't loose our sonship.

Again this portion of scripture is speaking to the "children of disobedience" they "deserve the wrath of God" not born again believers - we have been saved from wrath (Romans 5:9) And no anything concerning unbelievers is total disobedience but again its different for the born again believer.

Grace is favor from God that none of us deserves but yet he freely gives.

Again who is this speaking about - ungodly men, denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I said in the beginning - No, grace is not a license to sin. I believe that it is broken fellowship because that is the truth and context of 1 John 1. I would say that any inappropriate activity should be dealt with after one is born again. When we are born again we are washed and changed on the inside - But you have to realize that the flesh is flesh - the old man is our responsibility to change or to line up with what has happened on the inside (to correspond with the new man) - it ain't that easy!!!

Please consider answering these questions if you will, and please define biblical repentance and faith, so I can grasp what you are trying to say here.

I dont think you are saying a vile sinner, still In sin, such as porn, adultery, fornication, etc,,,is still a child of God and in His will, or you can sin as the devil and still be saved.

Please consider,


Explain please How they can continue in sins of the flesh that disqualify you from the Kingdom (according to the Bible) while they wait for God to work His magic clean up, and still be qualified for the Kingdom?

Don't tell me, 1Cor6:11, they are Washed, Sanctified and Justified.....
You're saying in essence that they can be Washed, but Still Dirty, Sanctified buy still defiled....in other words Justified in a state of sin!
How can a person ever become a Vessel fit for the Master's use by sinning (these types of sins) less and less?

I suppose they have to ask themselves: Can a person continue to commit these acts on occasion and remain in a Washed, Sanctified and Justified State?
Where is such a notion supported in Scripture?

 

[Tombo]

Please consider answering these questions if you will, and please define biblical repentance and faith, so I can grasp what you are trying to say here.

I dont think you are saying a vile sinner, still In sin, such as porn, adultery, fornication, etc,,,is still a child of God and in His will, or you can sin as the devil and still be saved.

Please consider,


Explain please How they can continue in sins of the flesh that disqualify you from the Kingdom (according to the Bible) while they wait for God to work His magic clean up, and still be qualified for the Kingdom?

Don't tell me, 1Cor6:11, they are Washed, Sanctified and Justified.....
You're saying in essence that they can be Washed, but Still Dirty, Sanctified buy still defiled....in other words Justified in a state of sin!
How can a person ever become a Vessel fit for the Master's use by sinning (these types of sins) less and less?

I suppose they have to ask themselves: Can a person continue to commit these acts on occasion and remain in a Washed, Sanctified and Justified State?
Where is such a notion supported in Scripture?

Are you trying to all of us here that you live a completely sanctified life with no sin whatsoever??? Are you telling us that you never stumble or fail to live up to God's perfection, that you are perfect in your obedience to Him???
If you are, then you would the first perfect Christian I have ever met.


Tom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Please consider answering these questions if you will, and please define biblical repentance and faith, so I can grasp what you are trying to say here.

I dont think you are saying a vile sinner, still In sin, such as porn, adultery, fornication, etc,,,is still a child of God and in His will, or you can sin as the devil and still be saved.

Repentance is to have a change of mind to turn toward God - faith is believing Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. When a person turns toward God and believes he at that time becomes born of the Spirit. When we are born again of God's incorruptible seed; we are his sons/daughters and from that point on we will be his sons/daughters - He does not disown us. We are new creations spiritually but we still live in this body of death - flesh.

Please consider,

Explain please How they can continue in sins of the flesh that disqualify you from the Kingdom (according to the Bible) while they wait for God to work His magic clean up, and still be qualified for the Kingdom?

Don't tell me, 1Cor6:11, they are Washed, Sanctified and Justified.....
You're saying in essence that they can be Washed, but Still Dirty, Sanctified buy still defiled....in other words Justified in a state of sin!
How can a person ever become a Vessel fit for the Master's use by sinning (these types of sins) less and less?

You are trying to apply what is said about unbelievers to believers by quoting 1 Co. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? We were part of the "unrighteous" but now we are born again of incorruptible seed and in that new creation we are redeemed, justified, sanctified. v11)
Romans 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteouness of God in him.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
We receive righteousness by faith of Jesus Christ - there is nothing we can do to please God in the flesh nor is there anything we can do to be justified in the flesh -
Romans 4:4,5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness. There is nothing we can do to be MORE righteous

I suppose they have to ask themselves: Can a person continue to commit these acts on occasion and remain in a Washed, Sanctified and Justified State?

Where is such a notion supported in Scripture?

I don't believe there is any born again believer out there without sin -- I believe that we are righteous, we are sanctified, we are justified, we are redeemed -- not by any works that we have done or that we will do -- but because of what God wrought through his Son Jesus Christ. Now am I saying that we should just go through life wilfully sinning - No - but and if we do sin we confess our sins and he cleanses us from all unrighteousness. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. . . . .

 

[Tombo]

PB, you sound so close to the truth on many things, yet you are so far away in regard to the greatest question!!!!
You are still in my prayers.
God bless.

Tom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

PB, you sound so close to the truth on many things, yet you are so far away in regard to the greatest question!!!!
You are still in my prayers.
God bless.

Tom

Thank you, Tom. And you are in mine!

 

[hislastwalk]

Jesus blood did more than cover your sins, it destroyed your sinfulness. You are completely forgiven. You are righteous in Christ. Holy because he is holy. Nothing can separate you from God's grace... except for trying to be made righteous by the law.