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In response to the OP, before having a look at the thread...
Are the songs good? Are they Biblically solid? I've heard of a few of their songs. I like that song, "Oh, how he loves us" except for the sloppy wet kiss line, but did they write that?
How many of the hymns sung in the English-speaking world were written by Calvinists or Arminians or people who believed in infant baptism or transubstantiation? If you have strong theological opinions, you are likely to strongly disagree with the theology of someone who wrote a song or performed it. Should Calvinists refuse to sing 'Holy, Holy Holy' by Charles Wesley? They might be able to let go of that one, but what about 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing'? Should Calvinists protest if the kids sing that at Christmas time? If you disagreed with Luther's views on water baptism or communion, should you consider 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing' to be a bad song?
As far as being a part of the NAR, I happen to believe that some of these people are saved. What is the big theological controversy around IHOP? Is there a specific theological problem with them that a Charismatic would have? Are they not Arminian enough or what?
Btw, if you prayed for someone, and glitter appeared out of nowhere, from no fault of your own, or a cloud appeared, or oil formed on their forehead or something unusual like that, would that make you a heretic? If some prankster put some glitter in the A/C vents that came out when you prayed, does that make you a heretic? The Bible doesn't say anything in favor of glitter or gold flakes appearing that I know of, but I can't find anything against it, either.
Jesus and Peter walked on water, so it must be okay to do that. I don't understand people getting bent out of shape over gold flakes appearing. That sounds kind of strange, but it doesn't make someone a heretic.
Are the songs good? Are they Biblically solid? I've heard of a few of their songs. I like that song, "Oh, how he loves us" except for the sloppy wet kiss line, but did they write that?
How many of the hymns sung in the English-speaking world were written by Calvinists or Arminians or people who believed in infant baptism or transubstantiation? If you have strong theological opinions, you are likely to strongly disagree with the theology of someone who wrote a song or performed it. Should Calvinists refuse to sing 'Holy, Holy Holy' by Charles Wesley? They might be able to let go of that one, but what about 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing'? Should Calvinists protest if the kids sing that at Christmas time? If you disagreed with Luther's views on water baptism or communion, should you consider 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing' to be a bad song?
As far as being a part of the NAR, I happen to believe that some of these people are saved. What is the big theological controversy around IHOP? Is there a specific theological problem with them that a Charismatic would have? Are they not Arminian enough or what?
Btw, if you prayed for someone, and glitter appeared out of nowhere, from no fault of your own, or a cloud appeared, or oil formed on their forehead or something unusual like that, would that make you a heretic? If some prankster put some glitter in the A/C vents that came out when you prayed, does that make you a heretic? The Bible doesn't say anything in favor of glitter or gold flakes appearing that I know of, but I can't find anything against it, either.
Jesus and Peter walked on water, so it must be okay to do that. I don't understand people getting bent out of shape over gold flakes appearing. That sounds kind of strange, but it doesn't make someone a heretic.
E
Good points about the old hymn writers and stuff. But their all dead now. I have no problem with any of the hymns that I've been exposed to. But Jesus Culture/ Bethel Music are present day, self proclaimed, global movements that are geared toward the youth in order to raise up a new generation of revivalists to take over the world. And this will, according to their beliefs, usher in the Lords return. This is Dominion theology. It is extremely flawed and dangerous. Check it out. Honestly, there's too much heresy to put in this post but in a nut shell, they place more emphasis on signs and wonders, subjective experiences, prophecy, and visions and dreams than they do on scripture. In other words, all those things trump scripture. Ihop is very similar to Bethel church. Same stuff as above. And to your last point, no. It wouldnt make me a heretic. But what they believe, practice and teach, is what makes them heretics. And i agree, some may be saved but theres a ton of error and many souls may be in danger from all the shenanigans that go on. If somethings not taught in the Bible, it should be avoided. The Bible says not to add or take away from it. Also the Bible also doesnt teach about pedophilia, but we know it's evil. I would strongly encourage you, if you havent already, to look up ihops and bethel church heresies. Theres a ton of research out there. As long as we test everything to scripture we'll be okay.
I don't know that much about Bethel's eschatology. I get the impression from some of the 'prophetic movement' types that they don't have a really specific theology. Some of those churches, sadly, do seem a bit light on Bible study, just based on the times I've visited them. I assume some of the people get their eschatological beliefs from their previous religious background. It could be dispensationalist, but with some 'positive' ideas about eschatology that seem a bit 'post mil' or 'dominionist.' They could have dispensational views, but with a twist that sees some positive things happening before the end.
I've read that a number of early Pentecostals came from a post-mil background. It was a mixed bag. Eventually, a more-or-less dispensational view took over the movement.
Plenty of preachers that most modern evangelical Protestants were post-mil in their outlook. I've read that Jonathan Edwards and many of the Methodists were.
I suspect some of these groups that people make these 'dominionist' comments about are full of people with basically dispensational views but with a bit of post-mil philosophy mixed in about great end-times revivals where some positive things would happen. But I also suspect a lot of these churches don't teach in depth on eschatology.
Lack of teaching of certain doctrine in certain churches does concern me, btw. But it doesn't make those who attend heretics.
I can't say Bethel doesn't have in depth Bible teaching. I don't know enough about them to say that.
The Bible places emphasis on these things. In the New Testament, Paul spent more space in his epistles emphasizing the importance of prophesying than he did on emphasizing the importance of expository Bible teaching. Both he and Peter had visions. Both went into a trance on at least one occasion. Paul and his team made a big ministry decision based on a vision.
What is 'too much emphasis'? There are some Bible teachers focus more than half of their teaching on end-times issues. A friend of mine went to a church where the preacher had a special session before or after the sermon to talk about newspaper headlines in the middle east to tie them in to some kind of pre-trib framework. That seemed like 'too much emphasis' to me. But it wouldn't bother me if it weren't for the pre-trib thing.
Is it heretical if a certain individual who has a ministry to the sick focuses an awful lot on healing, and another individual who is very much into economics and finance often teaches on being faithful with money, and someone else focuses a lot on counseling married couples and teaches on marriage? Signs and wonders are a valid, and Biblical, topic. So the 'emphasis' thing doesn't seem like heresy to me. If you want to accuse them of heresy, but specific. Don't just accuse them of riding a different hobby horse than your own.
The Bible certainly has a lot to say that relates to the topic of pedophila, for example on the topics of fornication, rape, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc., even if it doesn't use the modern word 'pedophilia.'
'Research' on websites like this often consist of pages of accusations based on unbiblical presuppositions about gifts of the Spirit ceasing or arguments similar to your 'too much emphasis' argument.
I've read that a number of early Pentecostals came from a post-mil background. It was a mixed bag. Eventually, a more-or-less dispensational view took over the movement.
Plenty of preachers that most modern evangelical Protestants were post-mil in their outlook. I've read that Jonathan Edwards and many of the Methodists were.
I suspect some of these groups that people make these 'dominionist' comments about are full of people with basically dispensational views but with a bit of post-mil philosophy mixed in about great end-times revivals where some positive things would happen. But I also suspect a lot of these churches don't teach in depth on eschatology.
Lack of teaching of certain doctrine in certain churches does concern me, btw. But it doesn't make those who attend heretics.
I can't say Bethel doesn't have in depth Bible teaching. I don't know enough about them to say that.
The Bible places emphasis on these things. In the New Testament, Paul spent more space in his epistles emphasizing the importance of prophesying than he did on emphasizing the importance of expository Bible teaching. Both he and Peter had visions. Both went into a trance on at least one occasion. Paul and his team made a big ministry decision based on a vision.
What is 'too much emphasis'? There are some Bible teachers focus more than half of their teaching on end-times issues. A friend of mine went to a church where the preacher had a special session before or after the sermon to talk about newspaper headlines in the middle east to tie them in to some kind of pre-trib framework. That seemed like 'too much emphasis' to me. But it wouldn't bother me if it weren't for the pre-trib thing.
Is it heretical if a certain individual who has a ministry to the sick focuses an awful lot on healing, and another individual who is very much into economics and finance often teaches on being faithful with money, and someone else focuses a lot on counseling married couples and teaches on marriage? Signs and wonders are a valid, and Biblical, topic. So the 'emphasis' thing doesn't seem like heresy to me. If you want to accuse them of heresy, but specific. Don't just accuse them of riding a different hobby horse than your own.
The Bible certainly has a lot to say that relates to the topic of pedophila, for example on the topics of fornication, rape, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc., even if it doesn't use the modern word 'pedophilia.'
'Research' on websites like this often consist of pages of accusations based on unbiblical presuppositions about gifts of the Spirit ceasing or arguments similar to your 'too much emphasis' argument.
He is our Example, and we are to conduct ourselves as well as possible as He, therefore one may say we all "act" like Jesus Christ.
Anything done with a clear conscience before our blessed Father is good, and with the reverence and respect of a believer it is just wonderful.
Praise God, He is worthy, not we..............
Anything done with a clear conscience before our blessed Father is good, and with the reverence and respect of a believer it is just wonderful.
Praise God, He is worthy, not we..............
E
All that was mentioned previously is enough to characterize them as dangerous. If you love the truth and take the Bible seriously, do the research from their own websites and you should be able to identify the error. Here's a very small sample:
Bill Johnson believes Jesus was only a man when He healed people. He says Jesus wasn't God during that time.
Word of Faith/Prosperirty gospel
Prophecy,visions,dreams/encounters all supersede scripture
False signs and wonders/manifestations/shaking/convulsing/new age books, ("When Heaven Invades Earth, "The Physics of Heaven")
Christian mysticism/contemplative prayer
Bill Johnson believes Jesus was only a man when He healed people. He says Jesus wasn't God during that time.
Word of Faith/Prosperirty gospel
Prophecy,visions,dreams/encounters all supersede scripture
False signs and wonders/manifestations/shaking/convulsing/new age books, ("When Heaven Invades Earth, "The Physics of Heaven")
Christian mysticism/contemplative prayer
E
Just google "invasion of error bob dewaay" this happens to be a review of Bill's book, "When Heaven Invades Earth," But hits on many topics. Its a bit lengthy but very informative. Also bjm.org is his own site if you care to go directly to the source. A good video here as well: just google "bill johnson andrew strohm youtube." Informative 4 minute video about his new age and kundalini practices.
Bill Johnson believes Jesus was only a man when He healed people. He says Jesus wasn't God during that time.
I highly doubt that Bill Johnson said that Jesus is not God. He most likely said that Jesus did not do miracles from Him being God but by the Holy Spirit as the Son of Man.
Jesus was still God but He operated as a Man while on this earth completely dependent on His Father - like we are supposed to be.
This is an example of people "twisting" things that were said to make it "appear" to be something other than what it really is.
I believe Jesus did operate as a Man by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't do one miracle until after the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Jesus also said that it wasn't Him doing the works but His Father in Him. ( Obviously by the power of the Holy Spirit )
Jesus also said without the Father - He could do nothing.
There is also these scriptures. So, to say that Jesus operated with complete dependence on the Holy Spirit is not wrong. Jesus was and is God manifested as the Son of God and yet the Son of Man too. Scriptures also said that He laid aside His divinity to humble Himself to become a man. To try to understand how Jesus could be both God and Man is most likely beyond our understanding until we get to heaven.
Luke 4:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Acts 10:38 (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
The odd thing is I can sing hymns in churches I know are not saved and fine about it,
but some of the Bethel things are too far removed.
The problem is the music has come to define Bethel and Hillsong, while their theology
is going haywire. I would rather leave it all alone, except for a few things, that
some share. I have always found their music spiritually odd, not like a good wesley
hymn etc. It probably comes down to it is often theological empty and too distant
rather it is just an emotional expression which could be to almost anything, so not
even necessarily Christian.
but some of the Bethel things are too far removed.
The problem is the music has come to define Bethel and Hillsong, while their theology
is going haywire. I would rather leave it all alone, except for a few things, that
some share. I have always found their music spiritually odd, not like a good wesley
hymn etc. It probably comes down to it is often theological empty and too distant
rather it is just an emotional expression which could be to almost anything, so not
even necessarily Christian.
Let's have a look at the horror of these people singing to the Lord out of a heart full of love for what He has done for them. The accuser of the brethren loves to rip apart these lovers of the Lord who are in the body of Christ.
Is it possible to exhibit any more ungodly behavior amongst us?
[video=youtube;3Lab0SHGXkA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lab0SHGXkA[/video]
Is it possible to exhibit any more ungodly behavior amongst us?
[video=youtube;3Lab0SHGXkA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lab0SHGXkA[/video]
I love all this complaining about music and messages being aimed at "young people."
Do any of you have the slightest idea the ages of the disciples when Jesus called them? Do you? Really?
I know what is believed about it, (and that is all we have to go by) but you can go look it up for yourselves. One was probably even as young as 15. And this was in an age when you weren't considered worth listening to until you were at least 30 years old.
Do any of you have the slightest idea the ages of the disciples when Jesus called them? Do you? Really?
I know what is believed about it, (and that is all we have to go by) but you can go look it up for yourselves. One was probably even as young as 15. And this was in an age when you weren't considered worth listening to until you were at least 30 years old.
As G7 put a hillsong song up, I do sing many of these songs which have a really good
theological content.
The problem is the prosperity and health preaching along with a lack of clarity on
repentance, confession and applying the cross to ones life.
G7 supports the wof, health wealth and HG views, so not surprisingly he will
play a song, which is good and uplifting, but faith and truth are more than just
one song.
Interestingly a young lady went from our house group to this church in London,
but found the mega church structure and pop venue style too empty. It is great
if you want a personal spiritual high, not so good on the one to one side, which
is where the rubber really hits the tarmac.
theological content.
The problem is the prosperity and health preaching along with a lack of clarity on
repentance, confession and applying the cross to ones life.
G7 supports the wof, health wealth and HG views, so not surprisingly he will
play a song, which is good and uplifting, but faith and truth are more than just
one song.
Interestingly a young lady went from our house group to this church in London,
but found the mega church structure and pop venue style too empty. It is great
if you want a personal spiritual high, not so good on the one to one side, which
is where the rubber really hits the tarmac.
Here is a great song that speaks of our Father. If this song doesn't witness to our spirit - there is something drastically wrong IMO.
Perhaps malice is stopping us from worshipping the Lord with others in the body of Christ? It is hard to worship with those that we are biting and devouring at the same time.
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
It is time for all of us to grow up in the Lord.
[video=youtube;MS5nb7WBn2A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS5nb7WBn2A[/video]
Perhaps malice is stopping us from worshipping the Lord with others in the body of Christ? It is hard to worship with those that we are biting and devouring at the same time.
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
It is time for all of us to grow up in the Lord.
[video=youtube;MS5nb7WBn2A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS5nb7WBn2A[/video]
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The thing is some charismatic Churches do things that are not of the Spirit,and serve no purpose,like those that handle snakes,where Jesus said do not tempt the LORD thy God,which means do not put yourself in a dangerous situation on purpose,and expect that God will save you.
Falling on the ground serves no purpose,and what if someone cracks their head,gets hurt.
These people go overboard thinking it is the Spirit,or trying to show,hey,the Spirit is working great in this Church,but the Bible says let all things be done decently and in order.
The Bible will state what is of the Spirit,and how people will act when led of the Spirit.
Falling on the ground serves no purpose,and what if someone cracks their head,gets hurt.
These people go overboard thinking it is the Spirit,or trying to show,hey,the Spirit is working great in this Church,but the Bible says let all things be done decently and in order.
The Bible will state what is of the Spirit,and how people will act when led of the Spirit.
E
Too much of what they believe, teach, and practice is not found in Scripture and much of it is actually contrary to it. I mean there's just so much error that its not worth dabbling in any part If it. Btw, the problem with the "Our Father" song is that they have an anti biblical view of end times events. Dominion/Kingdom now theology are erroneous teachings. Their view of the kingdom is not based on scripture. Its really all a hot mess to be honest.