Israel’s Final Restoration

[trofimus]

Amen, that is why spiritualizing prophesy gives God a bad name, and makes him no pore a prophet that nostrodomus (it brings me to remembrance that nostrodomous said the name hissler. and said this man would do some things, so they translated this prophesy to hitler and the German 3rd reich.

When God says such and such will happen, there will be no question, because he got the made right, the date right, the event right, and nothing can be questioned. It happened exactly the way God said it would..

You are talking exactly like the Jews who did not accept the Christ and his spiritual kingdom Do you realize that?

They did not accept the gospel of apostles because they thought the same way you do - "it must be literal, Romans out, Jerusalem ruling over the world, literal king on the throne there etc"

 

[crossnote]

Amen, that is why spiritualizing prophesy gives God a bad name, and makes him no pore a prophet that nostrodomus (it brings me to remembrance that nostrodomous said the name hissler. and said this man would do some things, so they translated this prophesy to hitler and the German 3rd reich.

When God says such and such will happen, there will be no question, because he got the made right, the date right, the event right, and nothing can be questioned. It happened exactly the way God said it would..

As has been said many times ALL the OT prophecies concerning Israel and her Messiah were fulfilled literally up to and including Jesus' death and resurrection. Then magically and without Scriptural warrant Platonic type interpretations took hold where the 'Church' became an abstract concept for 'Israel'.

 

[oldhermit]

I will start here, Since this is a direct answer to my question.

Remnant. Where in the OT does any prophet say this prophesy will be fulfilled by a remnant? There has always been a remnant, God prophesied that there always would be, So how is something that has ALWAYS been be considered a remnant?

Isaiah 10:22 "For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness."

2. Not all of the nation of Israel returned to Jerusalem.

Isaiah 10:22 "For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness."

People who were in Jerusalem were there to celebrate pentecost. They had done this to celebrate Pentecost every year. This is not god bringing them back and this is not the first time they came back since the were allowed back into the land after the Babylonian exile.

These who had assembled in Jerusalem for the feast are described very plainly in the text as "devout men from every nation under heaven."

3. the jews who were there may have been dwelling in Jerusalem, But it does not say they were returned by God at that moment after they repented. In fact, Most still had not repented. which was the reason they were still under gentile rule

Peter confirms that this was a matter of prophetic fulfillment "but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:"

4. the day of Pentecost is seen in lev 23 16, After 50 days (Pentecost) an offering was to be given) it was also called the feast of harvest, or the day of first fruits. (ex 23 with numbers 28) and it is logical to conclude that many jews from many nation were in attendance who may not even have lived there.. But were their to visit for this Jewish tradition

And you feel this means what???

3/ These people were not there because God brought them back to live in the land in peace. But because they were their celebrating a jewish tradition, In fact, they were not living in peace (they were slaves of rome) and were utterly cast out just a few years later (70 AD)

You are not understanding the nature of the peace that was promised. It had nothing to do with whether they were still under Roman dominance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All these can be applied to church very easily. And is, throughout the New Testament.

No they can not. without twisting the word of God. Sorry, But I have made a habit of taking God literally.

God rescued His real nation,
the spiritual children of Abraham, both from Israel and other nations

You do realise how this sounds do you not? Jesus came to save everyone from adam until the last man saved, He did not call them a nation, And he did not just come to die for people after Abraham.. He died for the whole world.. He rescued individual for eternal life.

Christ's purpose on his first advent was to set mankind back in right standing with God. not to rescue any nation.

It was to fulfill the prophesy, "in you shall all the NATIONS (not nation) of the world be blessed.

. He gave the life to the dry bones (we were dead in sins). We were brought back the to land (heaven) we were sent away from.

ezek 37 was not about me, I never had a land that was given to my fathers, My ancestors were not dispersed into many nations of the world because they sinned against God. I did not have to repent of my fathers sins, And how my fathers sinned against God and because of their sins, that is why I now am dispersed from the land God gave to my nation.

I was lost because of Adam, I am saved because of Christ,Israel has no meaning to me personally other than they birthed my savior. Ezek 37 has nothing to do with me for the reasons mentioned above, To say it does.. well I just can't fathom. Interpretation of scripture is context based, there is no way in context to make ezek 37 fit as a prophesy for any gentile person or nation.

If you would like to go through Ezek 37 point by point (unlike what oldhermit wants to do) then let me know, I would love that, Iron sharpens iron.

But just to make points based on assumptions and not to look at the passage itself. Sorry I can not do that.

You said you accept that the OT symbols (land, Jerusalem, sabbath etc) were fulfilled in NT, i.e. spiritually. So why now you dont accept that?

Symbols are not prophesies, I have explained the difference and why I can not interpret the same a few times now. Why do you keep asking me to explain again?

If prophets say something is going to happen, and it does not happen like they said it did, The prophet was no prophet, Or God was a liar.

There is no other option. I will not spiritualize a prophesy just because it did not come true the way the prophet said it would. To me that is interpreting scripture to fit my belief system, Not using scripture to form my belief system.

Promise made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, even to Adam are fulfilled in us, in church, in the real meaning (which is spiritual).

God never promised me any land in the middle east. Or to be a blessing to the gentiles (I am a gentile) as God blessed me and my nation, and as a gentile I am blessed by Gods provisions.

The church does not fulfill ALL promises made to Abraham, Sorry, it only fulfills one.

in you shall ALL THE NATIONS (PLURAL) Be blessed.

That's it..

No other promise made to Abraham can be fulfilled by any gentile nation or nations, or the church.

It seems to me that you see the spiritual, eternal fulfillment as lesser to the physical fulfillment.

Forgive me if I am seeming upset. This is like the second or third time you have said something like this now. Why do you keep insulting me by asking me the same thing which I have already answered on numerous occasions.

it seems to me you are so engrossed into what you have been taught I believe, you can not open your heart even a little to even see it may not be true (As I said, I had to go through this painful humility myself)

Nothing trumps the death of Christ and eternal life given to ALL PEOPLE through that death.

But the topic and promises which we are talking about have NOTHING to do with eternal redemption of any person, It has to do with Gods specific promises made to a specific group of people. Which is not as important as the cross (which is why I said, this is not a salvic argument, we can disagree and still be brothers) but it is in the bible. so it is still important all the same.

Please stop insulting me by saying I put this as more important that the cross and salvation to all mankind. From now on, that will be a strawman argument which has already directly been addressed.

But the opposite is true. What is better, to live 70 years in land somewhere in the middle east or to live eternally in heaven?

It is much more better fulfillment of promise Jews could ever imagine.

If I was a jew, I would want eternity with God more than anything,

But while I am here on earth, I would want what was rightfully mine. To think I live in America, and my city and sanctuary are in enemy hands, all because my ancestors sin, What greater a tragedy and insult to me, I would be praying as paul did for my people to repent, so 1. They could have eternal life, and 2, they could be restore to what rightly belongs to them, and be used by God in a way God desired to use them

and again, this would be a problem how? How is this different that me saying my eternity is more important than my house, and my property. But I still want God to bless me with what he gave me..

I must say I dont understand you.

That's because you are not trying to understand what I am saying, you prove that with many of the things you say..

What is the salvation of nation? How can it be without the salvation of individuals in that nation? I dont get it.
Or do you by "salvation of the nation" mean only that they will return to the land in the middle east and get united like they are today? Thats all? Paul is certainly talking about something more, about the real salvation of people.

Ask paul. He spoke of the salvation of a nation. Not individuals.. What were they saved from and to? I have showed you numerous things which show what that is. I am starting to feel like there is nothing I can show you that will help you understand my belief system.

I dont understand the meaning of your response.
Jesus said that who is in Him can be cut off like a branch and burnt. Paul says very similar thing. Branch can be cut off from the olive tree.
Sure its about unbelieving people.
Not getting the point of your answer-question, sorry

Jesus said he refined people who are his children as a person prunes a branch and lifts them up, in order that they may bear more fruit (context)

Paul spoke of two people groups (as classified natural and unnatural branches) being cut off. So they can bear NO FRUIT as their perspective groups.

huge difference.

To me you can not relate the two because they have different meaning, and are used in different context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will respond in short, because these large posts are getting to be really exhausting Let us make it faster and simpler, if you agree.

Romans 9 - it is contradiction only for your view

I use that examples to show you, that if these images are fulfilled in the church, there is no need to wait for prophecies containing these images to be fulfilled in other way than in church. Its connected.

The heads in Revelation are symbolic - that is my point, exactly. Because Revelation is the book of symbols. So there will be no literal 1000 years of something, its - again - a symbol of something

Who is Christ ruling - Hitler, Sadam, Stalin, Napoleon, Nero etc etc - of course he is ruling them, NT says clearly that all government is from Him and that He is in the control of all events in the universe.

New world when taking words literally - as I said, I was grown up in a dispensational church, so this Israel-world view is not new to me. Literal fulfillment is lesser than the eternal/spiritual one.

we will have to agree to disagree.

As you said, Romans 9 is different only in my view, Well I can use the same argument against you. They are only the same in your view.

I am sorry, But OT prophets state specific things will happen when king Messiah rules on this earth.

War, Evil, and division is not one of the things which they claim will happen..

So sorry, I must again take them at their word

Daniel was symbolic too. Just like revelation. He used beasts to describe literal leaders. Up until Christ, Every prophesy Daniel spoke of with the exception of the final 4th beast has been literally fulfilled

So I have a question, If all the prophesies were literally fulfilled. why would I want to spiritualize the aspects of Daniels prophesies which were not literally fulfilled?

This is the first step in raising what differentiates us..

I interpret prophesy the way prophesy prophesy before Christ was fulfilled. Literally. That means I take the prophesy of Christ and after the same way, I do not change my view on how to interpret prophesies after a different way

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Complain to apostles, they started it.

No, they did not, as you said, That is only your view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are talking exactly like the Jews who did not accept the Christ and his spiritual kingdom Do you realize that?

They did not accept the gospel of apostles because they thought the same way you do - "it must be literal, Romans out, Jerusalem ruling over the world, literal king on the throne there etc"

You do realise the jews rejected Christ because he came to be their savior (as prophesied by the OT) and not to be king messiah (as prophesied in the OT) do you not?

That was part of the mystery, The OT spoke of two people. One who would come "suffer for the sin of the people) and one who would come and "rule with a rod of Iron)

The first set of prophesies literally came true word for word. Why would not the second set be fulfilled the same way?

The hidden mystery of God explains all of these problems..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As has been said many times ALL the OT prophecies concerning Israel and her Messiah were fulfilled literally up to and including Jesus' death and resurrection. Then magically and without Scriptural warrant Platonic type interpretations took hold where the 'Church' became an abstract concept for 'Israel'.

Amen, all the prophesies up to the suffering servent literally wer fulfilled, up and including the prophesies of Daniel concerning the 4 nations who would rule over Jerusalem up until the time of messiah the prince.

Why would we all of a sudden change the way prophesy is interpreted and use an allegorical interpretation when up till that time EVERY prophesy was fulfilled literally?

That is where the issue starts and ends.

 

[trofimus]

No they can not. without twisting the word of God. Sorry, But I have made a habit of taking God literally.


You do realise how this sounds do you not? Jesus came to save everyone from adam until the last man saved, He did not call them a nation, And he did not just come to die for people after Abraham.. He died for the whole world.. He rescued individual for eternal life.

Christ's purpose on his first advent was to set mankind back in right standing with God. not to rescue any nation.

It was to fulfill the prophesy, "in you shall all the NATIONS (not nation) of the world be blessed.



ezek 37 was not about me, I never had a land that was given to my fathers, My ancestors were not dispersed into many nations of the world because they sinned against God. I did not have to repent of my fathers sins, And how my fathers sinned against God and because of their sins, that is why I now am dispersed from the land God gave to my nation.

I was lost because of Adam, I am saved because of Christ,Israel has no meaning to me personally other than they birthed my savior. Ezek 37 has nothing to do with me for the reasons mentioned above, To say it does.. well I just can't fathom. Interpretation of scripture is context based, there is no way in context to make ezek 37 fit as a prophesy for any gentile person or nation.

If you would like to go through Ezek 37 point by point (unlike what oldhermit wants to do) then let me know, I would love that, Iron sharpens iron.

But just to make points based on assumptions and not to look at the passage itself. Sorry I can not do that.


Symbols are not prophesies, I have explained the difference and why I can not interpret the same a few times now. Why do you keep asking me to explain again?

If prophets say something is going to happen, and it does not happen like they said it did, The prophet was no prophet, Or God was a liar.

There is no other option. I will not spiritualize a prophesy just because it did not come true the way the prophet said it would. To me that is interpreting scripture to fit my belief system, Not using scripture to form my belief system.


God never promised me any land in the middle east. Or to be a blessing to the gentiles (I am a gentile) as God blessed me and my nation, and as a gentile I am blessed by Gods provisions.

The church does not fulfill ALL promises made to Abraham, Sorry, it only fulfills one.

in you shall ALL THE NATIONS (PLURAL) Be blessed.

That's it..

No other promise made to Abraham can be fulfilled by any gentile nation or nations, or the church.




Forgive me if I am seeming upset. This is like the second or third time you have said something like this now. Why do you keep insulting me by asking me the same thing which I have already answered on numerous occasions.

it seems to me you are so engrossed into what you have been taught I believe, you can not open your heart even a little to even see it may not be true (As I said, I had to go through this painful humility myself)

Nothing trumps the death of Christ and eternal life given to ALL PEOPLE through that death.

But the topic and promises which we are talking about have NOTHING to do with eternal redemption of any person, It has to do with Gods specific promises made to a specific group of people. Which is not as important as the cross (which is why I said, this is not a salvic argument, we can disagree and still be brothers) but it is in the bible. so it is still important all the same.

Please stop insulting me by saying I put this as more important that the cross and salvation to all mankind. From now on, that will be a strawman argument which has already directly been addressed.



If I was a jew, I would want eternity with God more than anything,

But while I am here on earth, I would want what was rightfully mine. To think I live in America, and my city and sanctuary are in enemy hands, all because my ancestors sin, What greater a tragedy and insult to me, I would be praying as paul did for my people to repent, so 1. They could have eternal life, and 2, they could be restore to what rightly belongs to them, and be used by God in a way God desired to use them

and again, this would be a problem how? How is this different that me saying my eternity is more important than my house, and my property. But I still want God to bless me with what he gave me..


That's because you are not trying to understand what I am saying, you prove that with many of the things you say..




Ask paul. He spoke of the salvation of a nation. Not individuals.. What were they saved from and to? I have showed you numerous things which show what that is. I am starting to feel like there is nothing I can show you that will help you understand my belief system.



Jesus said he refined people who are his children as a person prunes a branch and lifts them up, in order that they may bear more fruit (context)

Paul spoke of two people groups (as classified natural and unnatural branches) being cut off. So they can bear NO FRUIT as their perspective groups.

huge difference.

To me you can not relate the two because they have different meaning, and are used in different context.

"You do realise how this sounds do you not? Jesus came to save everyone from adam until the last man saved, He did not call them a nation"

I do, it sounds like the New Testament. He called them (i.e. us) a nation:

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

Spiritual fulfillment is not twisting the word of God. Or else you would have to say apostles were twisting the prophecies when applying them to church. Spiritual fulfillment is the real fulfillment of a physical picture.

Promises made to Abraham about the land applies to you, because you are the descendant of Abraham, if you believe. So the prophecies about the land applies to you, too.

Symbols are not prophecies, but prophecies about these symbols are also symbolic, logically.

I dont why are you upset when I described what I think about your view.

Yes, I dont understand many things you say, because you post too large texts and still I dont know what you mean by the salvation of Israel. You responded - ask Paul. But it is your view, not of Paul, we are talking about.

Jesus was speaking about cutting off the branches, Paul too. I dont know why you ignore this fact and still repeat something about lifting up the branches to bear more fruit. Thats why I dont understand your response.

 

[trofimus]

No, they did not, as you said, That is only your view.

No, they did. You can read that in Acts, in Galatians, in Hebrews, in Romans etc. They applied OT prophecies to NT events in a spiritual way quite often.

My view of this or that verse does not mean apostles did not use spiritual fulfillments of OT prophecies in general

 

[trofimus]

You do realise the jews rejected Christ because he came to be their savior (as prophesied by the OT) and not to be king messiah (as prophesied in the OT) do you not?

That was part of the mystery, The OT spoke of two people. One who would come "suffer for the sin of the people) and one who would come and "rule with a rod of Iron)

The first set of prophesies literally came true word for word. Why would not the second set be fulfilled the same way?

The hidden mystery of God explains all of these problems..

So you agree with their rejection? In that case, what do you think about the Jews that accepted Christ? Twisters of OT prophecies? It starts to get weird.

OT prophecies were both about the death of Christ and salvation and his kingdom. Where is the kingdom of God? Everywhere.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[
You are not understanding the nature of the peace that was promised. It had nothing to do with whether they were still under Roman dominance.

why do I even bother

That's what happened when you got away from exek 37 and went off on your little side streets.

This is what the prophet Ezekial says peace will look like, and this is just one prophet, there are many more sho say the same thing and more.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;

This did bot happen in acts two. And up until this day, It has not happened. They are not one nation, And they are not living on the mountains of Isreal

They were a slave nation in before acts 2, and they were a slave nation after acts 2 until they were completely wiped out in AD 70.

And you want me to think that is peace?


and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions;

hmm, was it not just a few years later, because of their continued transgressions, and their continued evil ways, that they were wiped out and destroyed according to the provisions god gave them in lev 26 for their sins?

Lev 26:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
[SUP]32[/SUP]I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

And please not. In the case of Judah, this was not done until 70 AD. Babylon did destroy the citie and sanctuary, But baylon did not disperse the whole nation from Isreal. in fact they left a puppet king, who Babylon had to kill because he sinned against Babylon.



to continue

but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.


They were bot delivered from their dwelling places at that time, As I explained, You can not get that to be a fulfillment of this prophesy,

and even if they were delivered, delivered to what be totally destroyed a few decades later?

No matter which way you look at it, You have god delivering them only to totally destroy then a few decades later. and you call that peace?

[SUP]

24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.


This is said to happen while they lived in the land, When did Christ take over ceasar to reule Isreal as a nation after he restored them? IN THE LAND (see above)


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever;

It is bad enough you had a problem with what I said up to here, Here is one area you cannot just walk away from. You can not call this heaven, THEIR FATHERS DID NOT LIVE IN HEAVEN. God said he would restore them to the land their fathers lived in, THIS CAN ONLY BE EARTHLY Isreal.

Again again, in 70 ad, that land was utterly destroyed by titus.

and My servant David shall be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

Explain to the Christian jews who were killed in the furnaces of adolf hitler. and killed and slaughtered by so many people. many who claimed to be men of God in the church, why this so called covenant of peace never occurred. If acts 2 was the fulilment of this prophesy

 

[trofimus]

we will have to agree to disagree.

As you said, Romans 9 is different only in my view, Well I can use the same argument against you. They are only the same in your view.

I am sorry, But OT prophets state specific things will happen when king Messiah rules on this earth.

War, Evil, and division is not one of the things which they claim will happen..

So sorry, I must again take them at their word

Daniel was symbolic too. Just like revelation. He used beasts to describe literal leaders. Up until Christ, Every prophesy Daniel spoke of with the exception of the final 4th beast has been literally fulfilled

So I have a question, If all the prophesies were literally fulfilled. why would I want to spiritualize the aspects of Daniels prophesies which were not literally fulfilled?

This is the first step in raising what differentiates us..

I interpret prophesy the way prophesy prophesy before Christ was fulfilled. Literally. That means I take the prophesy of Christ and after the same way, I do not change my view on how to interpret prophesies after a different way

No, I said Romans 9 contradicts Romans 11 only in your view.

Christ will rule on the new Earth, I am sure of it. Things you await are too small.
And now, there is no evil "on his holy mountain", that means church.

If you admit Revelation is a symbolic book, why dont you admit that other prophecies can be also symbolic?

"So I have a question, If all the prophesies were literally fulfilled..." thats a wrong presupposition. They were not all fulfilled literally. Look at Acts, Hebrews...

"I interpret prophesy the way prophesy prophesy before Christ was fulfilled." - I know. And I say - we are not before Christ anymore. Now we live in a spiritual reality, not in OT symbolism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"You do realise how this sounds do you not? Jesus came to save everyone from adam until the last man saved, He did not call them a nation"

I do, it sounds like the New Testament. He called them (i.e. us) a nation:

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

Spiritual fulfillment is not twisting the word of God. Or else you would have to say apostles were twisting the prophecies when applying them to church. Spiritual fulfillment is the real fulfillment of a physical picture.

Promises made to Abraham about the land applies to you, because you are the descendant of Abraham, if you believe. So the prophecies about the land applies to you, too.

Oh really,

then explain, Why has the church not lived in the land of cannan, and given all the blessings God promised he would give to isreal if they obeyed his commands, and loved him as a nation.

Symbols are not prophecies, but prophecies about these symbols are also symbolic, logically.

They are?

dan 2 - [SUP]37 [/SUP]You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; [SUP]38 [/SUP]and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.

Seems like that is a LITERAL interpretation of a symbolic use if prophesy to me. why would you not agree?

Symbols always represent literal things or events, Not symbolic things.. The thing or event literally happens, which fulfills the prophesy.

I dont why are you upset when I described what I think about your view.

let see

You said three times or more times (I lost count) , You believe my view is this

All 4 times, I have told you you were wrong, and why you were wrong (mostly you were placing me under a group of people and have predisposed ideas of what I believe, based on what many many people have been told premillennial people believe) instead of actually listening to what I had to say.

And you see no reason?

I can see it happening once, maybe twice, but multiple times over multiple days the same mistake over and over?

Please.

Yes, I dont understand many things you say, because you post too large texts and still I dont know what you mean by the salvation of Israel. You responded - ask Paul. But it is your view, not of Paul, we are talking about.

Jesus was speaking about cutting off the branches, Paul too. I dont know why you ignore this fact and still repeat something about lifting up the branches to bear more fruit. Thats why I dont understand your response.

1. Paul is talking about Gods gift to the fathers. and how God is not done with the nation of Israel. (not the church)I showed you that

2. Jesus spoke in context of bearing fruit, Paul spoke in context of cutting people off completely. and you want to use them the same way?

I have A question, and I am not asking this sarcastically, I am seriously asking, Does context mean anything to you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you agree with their rejection? In that case, what do you think about the Jews that accepted Christ? Twisters of OT prophecies? It starts to get weird.

I see that Jesus kept his promise, as seen in lev 26..to paraphrase...If you continue you sin, I will destroy your city, I will destroy your high places. I will scatter you people to every nation on the 4 corners of the earth. A foreigner will live in your land and be astonished by it.

This occurred in 70 AD..

God keeps his promises,,

OT prophecies were both about the death of Christ and salvation and his kingdom. Where is the kingdom of God? Everywhere.

The kingdom of God is at hand, It will be fully realized when jesus returns to earth, and fulfills the rest of the prophesies concerning king messiah (there are many things which have not occurred yet)

At that time, it just happens that God will keep another one of his promises, as found in lev 26

[SUP]40 [/SUP]‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;

I will remember the land.

Again, God keeps his promises.

He keeps it not just because they are Isreal. Or not while isreal is still in sin, and reject Jesus,

He keeps it, Because Isreal repents,, They have turned from their sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I said Romans 9 contradicts Romans 11 only in your view.

Which is what I said, and I also said it does not contradict romans 11 in your view.

This we have a strawman argument, because the argument goes both ways.

Christ will rule on the new Earth, I am sure of it.

I am sure of it also. I am also sure he will yet rule on this earth, The prophets fortold it (there is still birth, death, and other things which occure in that rule. so it can not be the new earth, unless you think there will be death and birth in the new?

Things you await are too small.

I am not waiting on anything, I am saved, and await one thing, my resurrection.

And now, there is no evil "on his holy mountain", that means church.

what?? There is plenty of evil in the church, Paul fought it with every letter. please stop, Have you seen the church over the last 2000 years? it is no better than isreal for its 2000 years. A few believing people following the one true god, surrounded by many evil people following a paganized, distorted, legalistic God.

I see many similarities between Isreal and the church in the way they act, their pride, and their rebellion, I also see they both will suffer the same fate, The church will fall just as Israel fell. In unbelief..

In fact the NT even prophesies about it, It is called the "falling away"

If you admit Revelation is a symbolic book, why dont you admit that other prophecies can be also symbolic?

I said revelation uses symbols to represent literal events. Not symbolic. please stop trying to change the meaning of what I said.

"So I have a question, If all the prophesies were literally fulfilled..." thats a wrong presupposition. They were not all fulfilled literally. Look at Acts, Hebrews...

They were literally fulfilled. Inspite of acts and Hebrews..

God prophesied in the OT that gentiles would come into view, Even those prophesies were literally fulfilled.

"I interpret prophesy the way prophesy prophesy before Christ was fulfilled." - I know. And I say - we are not before Christ anymore. Now we live in a spiritual reality, not in OT symbolism.

How can you?

Babylon was Babylon
Media and Persia was media and Persia
Greece was Greece
rome 1 was rome 1

Antochus epiphanes commited the abomination of desolation as the first little horn

Messiah the prince came literally 69 weeks after the command to restore Jerusalem was given

Messiah the prince was literally cut off after this event as prophesied

Isreal was destroyed by the prince, after messiah was cut off.

I have just gone over a basic view of the many many literal fulfilments of prophesys before and during Christ. Where is all the symbolism?

 

[oldhermit]

why do I even bother

That's what happened when you got away from exek 37 and went off on your little side streets.

This is what the prophet Ezekial says peace will look like, and this is just one prophet, there are many more sho say the same thing and more.

[SUP]
How can you not see that peace was restored between Judah and Israel in Acts 2? All you have to do is read the last few verses of Chapter two and follow this through chapter 6. The Church - Zion is the place were peace exists, not in the world. The conditions in the world, even toward Christians, has nothing to do with the peace of which Ezekiel speaks.
[/SUP]

“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;

This did bot happen in acts two. And up until this day, It has not happened. They are not one nation, And they are not living on the mountains of Isreal

They were a slave nation in before acts 2, and they were a slave nation after acts 2 until they were completely wiped out in AD 70.

And you want me to think that is peace?

O course it happened in Acts. Look at the last few verses of the chapter. "Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved." This is Judah and Israel together under one King - Messiah.

and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions;

hmm, was it not just a few years later, because of their continued transgressions, and their continued evil ways, that they were wiped out and destroyed according to the provisions god gave them in lev 26 for their sins?

Yes, that is what Joel said would happen to those of Judah and Israel who would not repent. This was the urging that Peter gave them in verse 40 saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” There reasonPeter urged them to save themselves from that perverse generation was because God was about to destroy that generation in a few years. Those who called upon the name of the Lord would be saved from that perverse generation.

Lev 26:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
[SUP]32[/SUP]I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

And please not. In the case of Judah, this was not done until 70 AD. Babylon did destroy the citie and sanctuary, But baylon did not disperse the whole nation from Isreal. in fact they left a puppet king, who Babylon had to kill because he sinned against Babylon.

This destruction was indeed fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar. The Babylonians captured Jerusalem in about 596 BC and In 2Kings 24, Nebuchadnezzar appointed Jehoiakin king of Judea and he served as a tribute king to Nebuchadnezzar for eight years. Nebuchadnezzar then replaced Jehoiakin with Zedekiah. It was during this time that the text says in verse 14, "Then he led away into exile all Jerusalem and all the captains and all the mighty men of valor, ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and the smiths. None remained except the poorest people of the land." After eleven years, Zedekiah rebelled. In verse 20 we learn that "He did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done. For through the anger of the LORD this came about in Jerusalem and Judah until He cast them out from His presence. And Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon." It was during this time that Daniel was taken into captivity. In chapter 25 Nebuchadnezzar placed the "city was under siege until the eleventh year of King Zedekiah." After the city was destroyed and the captives led away, Nebuchadnezzar left only a small number of "the poorest of the land to be vinedressers and plowmen." These were left only as slaves to care for the fields. If memory serves, this took place in about 605 BC. No more pupet king, no more city, no more temple. Jerusalem was utterly destroyed. This is the fulfillment of the promise of the Lord in Lev 26.

to continue

but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

They were bot delivered from their dwelling places at that time, As I explained, You can not get that to be a fulfillment of this prophesy,

and even if they were delivered, delivered to what be totally destroyed a few decades later?

No matter which way you look at it, You have god delivering them only to totally destroy then a few decades later. and you call that peace?

Luke says that these Jews had come from every nation under heaven. Did God forgive their sins? This is what Peter said God would do for them in verse 38. He brought them backe and forgave the sins of those who called upon the name of the Lord. This is true deliverance.

The covenant "they shall be My people, and I will be their God" was first given to Abraham in Gen. 17:7 and is repeated some 22 times - Ex. 6:7, Lv. 26:12, Dt. 29:13, Is. 63:8, Jer. 7:23; 30:22; and 31:1 and 33; 32:38, Ezk. 11:20; 14:11; 34:30; 36:20 and 28; and 37:27, Hos. 2:23, Zech. 8:8; 13:9, Rom. 9:25-26, 1Cor. 6:16, Heb. 8:10 and finally in Rev. 21:7. Both Paul and the Hebrew writer quote this covenant as having been fulfilled.

[SUP] 24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.


This is said to happen while they lived in the land, When did Christ take over ceasar to reule Isreal as a nation after he restored them? IN THE LAND (see above)

You are looking for the same things the Jews of the first century were looking for, an earthly king on an earthly throne. They were wrong too. Both the houses of Israel have one King - Jesus. Peter could not have been plainer in pointing this out as he explained the prophesy given by David in verses 25-36. Jesus is the King on the throne of David. See the coronation scene of Daniel 7:13-14.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever;

It is bad enough you had a problem with what I said up to here, Here is one area you cannot just walk away from. You can not call this heaven, THEIR FATHERS DID NOT LIVE IN HEAVEN. God said he would restore them to the land their fathers lived in, THIS CAN ONLY BE EARTHLY Isreal.

Again again, in 70 ad, that land was utterly destroyed by titus.

And they are still there unto this day.

and My servant David shall be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

Explain to the Christian jews who were killed in the furnaces of adolf hitler. and killed and slaughtered by so many people. many who claimed to be men of God in the church, why this so called covenant of peace never occurred. If acts 2 was the fulilment of this prophesy

There are two aspect to this, only one of which I will address at this time.
The fact that godless Jews who forsook their God were killed by the millions by Hitler confirms the judgment of God that continues to befall a people who deny their Messiah. Look at how God has dealt with Israel in the past when they rejected him. Do you think the judgment of God against godless Israel has suddenly stopped? God has ALWAYS and will ALWAYS stand against those of Israel who rebel against him. Read Psalms 2. For those Jews however who accept Christ, the covenant is established with them and God continued to multiply them. For these, God has "set his sanctuary (temple, dwelling place) in the midst of them forever." The Christian, whether Jew or Gentile, is the dwelling place of God. WE ARE THAT SANCTUARY! We are his people, and HE is our God. "For we are the temple of the living God;just as God said, 'I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.'" 1Cor. 6:16. Paul confirms, this covenant has been fulfilled.

 

[abcdef]

Brother oldhermit,

Are the times of the gentiles, Lk 21:20-24, ended?

Is Jerusalem Restored to Israel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]
How can you not see that peace was restored between Judah and Israel in Acts 2? [/SUP].

I posted ezek 37 and showed you what peace will look like when it is restored to Judah and Isreal. And this is all you can say in response?

I do not see it in acts, To me, I have found nothing in acts that looks like the prophet Ezekiel said would occur when God gives life to Israel and restores them again. And you have not showm me one ounce of proof. Only conjecture and astonishment that I can not read acts and see what you see (again with the personal attacks) (as if that ever helped one person)

May I ask why you even bother to try to discuss the word with anyone? I have now multiple times placed the evidence in Gods own words in front of you, and asked you to repond to them. Not once have you even tried. All you do is post this massive multiple post things and say it is proof. and expect me to buy into it.

Sorry, I showed you why I can not, Either you can look at each of my points why, and show me where I got it wrong, Or do what I originally asked you to do. And pick each highlighted portion of Ezek 37 and show me how in acts it was fulfilled.

I made it easy for you. I highlighted a point of scripture. and said explain that to me using acts. You could not even do that.

why??

is it that difficult?


if it is, You answered your own question as to why I can not see it the way you see it in acts.

 

[oldhermit]

EG, I addressed EVERY one of your highlighted points in my presentation of Acts 2. Even beyond this, I addressed them again when you repeated them. I really do not see this going anywhere. I am sorry beyond measure that you are not able to see this.