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Amen .
Revelation 21 seems to tie it all together to avoid confusion.
When the last person written in the lamb’s book of new spirit life, written from the foundation of the world receives the saving faith of God that comes from hearing Christ the end has come. She the church is clothed with the righteousness of Christ as one not found with any righteousness of her own. The twelve stars represent all the believers who have the Spirit of Christ the new spirit promised. If any man regardless of his flesh color has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to God.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.......(Christ)
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,........ (not to be confused with the earthly Jersuem.)
Twelve is the number that God has assigned to represent his authority. This is whether it is the twelve tribes used to represent all of the born again believers on the other side of the cross (first century reformation) “as gates”, a remnant of that heavenly city Zion or the heavenly new Jerusalem prepared as His bride the church.
This is with the tribe of Dan missing who is used as a anti-type, as one that causes others to "fall back".
"Falling back" is used to indicate judgement throughout the scriptures .
Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, anadder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall “fall backward”.
Or the twelve apostles, as foundations or pillars to make the remnant full in respect of the same city prepared as His bride the church. This is with Judas missing who served the same purpose as the name of Dan one who causes others to "fall backward".
They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they “went backward, and "fell" to the ground”. Joh 18:5
Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression “fell”, that he might go to his own place.
Altogether the old testament and new testament saints making the spiritual house of God made up of many lively redeemed stones .
Gates and foundations = One bride, the church
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The Sun and Moon will be under her feet signifying it is the end of time, the last day, the day of Christ .
The woman in Revelation 12 is simply the bride of Christ the remnant of her seed (Christ) it is all the believers beginning with Abel in whom God had mercy and favor on that have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy anointing Holy Spirit of God.This is without discrimination of which nation they come from. National unconverted, atheistic Israel is simply not part of the remnant . God is no respecter of flesh.
One bride, one gospel.
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, whenthe house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their
..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.
(Ezek36:22 KJV) Thereforesay unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek36:31 KJV) Thenshall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not
good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(Ezek 21:24 KJV) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.
(Ezek 21:25 KJV) And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
(Ezek 21:31 KJV) And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
(Ezek 21:32 KJV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thoushalt be no more remembered:
for I the LORD have spoken it.
..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.
(Ezek36:22 KJV) Thereforesay unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek36:31 KJV) Thenshall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not
good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(Ezek 21:24 KJV) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.
(Ezek 21:25 KJV) And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
(Ezek 21:31 KJV) And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
(Ezek 21:32 KJV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thoushalt be no more remembered:
for I the LORD have spoken it.
THE LAST DAYS
By oldhermit
Now I am not going to pretend that I understand all the consequences and implications that are linked to the term “the last days” but, it is certain that it is always associated with both blessing and/or judgment from God. What many have attempted to do is assign a strict and limited definition of time to this term and relegate it solely to a time that is still yet future, but this is not how we generally see it used in scripture. This term is very often used in connection with Israel but does not always represent the same period of time in their history; for example, sometimes it will refer to times related strictly to the OT period as in Daniel 8 which is a partial restating of what Daniel saw in chapter 11 simply cast in different symbols. Here, “the last days” is limited to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and his destruction of Jerusalem. Other times it refers to the last days of the Jewish economy which was marked by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It also seems to be used in Daniel 12:9 to refer to the end of all time as marked by the resurrection of the dead.
“The Last Days” never seems to have been used by any New Testament writer to refer to the end of the world. The first century Christians were living in the last days of the Jewish economy. It was not the Christian's last days, nor was it the last days of the world, nor of any specified nation other than Israel. It was the last days of the nation of Israel. It represented a time frame of some 37 years that stretched from between 33 AD to 70 AD. This language is used both in connection with the beginning of the reign of Messiah, and the destruction of Jerusalem.
What are “The Last Days” and to whom do they apply? This expression is limited in its application by scripture, not by the reader. It was limited to a specific group of peopleand to a specific time in THEIR history. As it referred to the end of the Jewish economy it defined the destruction of the nation, the killing and scattering of the people, the destruction of the capitol city, the desecration and destruction of the temple, the end of their sacrificial worship, and the destruction of their culture both religiously and politically. This would also end the nation of Israel's association with God. Exclusivity with God would no longer be defined ethnically. As a race, Israel existed only as a type whose appointed function had been fulfilled. Israel was the Bride of Jehovah through whom Messiah would come. All the nations of the earth would be blessed through her. Exclusivity now shifts from the physical to the spiritual. A Jew is now redefined, Romans 2:28-29 – “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” After the destruction of the Jewish economy, no generation is recognized by scripture as being in the last days as it is unlikely that any New Testament book was written after 69 AD. We are not now, nor have we ever been in the last days as this term is used in scripture. This period of time has been closed of by historical fulfillment. The following list of New Testament books represents all of the NT books that make use of the phrase “the last days” and the most likely time of their writing.
Acts – AD 62-64, 2Timothy – AD 62-66, Hebrews – AD 63-66, James – before AD 60, 2Peter – AD 66-67, 1John AD 60-65, 2John – AD 66-68, Jude – AD 66-69 (maybe early 70), Revelation – AD 62-68.
What did the prophets say would happen in the last days as this related to Israel?
I. Old Testament focus of the “Last Days”
A. Ezekiel 38:16, “And you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.” This is a prophesy against Israel that deals with the destruction of the nation by the Assyrians in 722 BC. “In the last days” then is endemic to that specific destruction.
B. Daniel 8:17, “So he came near to where I was standing, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face; but he said to me, 'Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.'” This is a prophesy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes in 169 BC.
C. Daniel 10:14, “Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.” These days were in the future with respect to the time of Daniel.
D. Daniel 11:35, “Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.” This has an extraordinary and detailed historic fulfillment from the time of Darius to Antiochus Epiphanes. If you like, I can provide this for you as well.
II. As God Used the Term “Last Days” regarding the nations of Moab and Elam.
A. Jeremiah 48:47, “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab in the latter days, declares the LORD. Thus far the judgment on Moab.”
B. Jeremiah 49:39, “But it will come about in the last days that I will restore the fortunes of Elam, declares the LORD.” Although God said he would destroy Moab and Elam he promised that he would restore their fortunes in “the latter days.” This seems to have redemptive aspirations regarding the salvation of the Gentiles in the last days. These are not the first times God uses the term “I will restore the fortunes” in this connection.
III. End of Time Focus
Daniel 12:40, “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.” This seems to refer to the full end of human history as it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.
IV. New Testament Focus:
A. Genesis 49:1, “Then Jacob summoned his sons and said, “Assemble yourselves that I may tell you what will befall you in the last days.” That this has Messianic focus related to the coming of the Messiah out of the tribe of Judah is clearly seen in Jacob's prophesy concerning the tribe of Judah in verses 8-12.
B. Micah 4:1, “And it will come about in the last days that the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it.”
C. Isaiah 2:2, “Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.”
D.Jeremiah 23:20, “The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart; In the last days you will clearly understand it.” This entire chapter deals with the coming of their Messiah.
E. Hosea 3:5, “Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.”
V. The Last Days as Spoken of by the New Testament
A. Acts 2:17, “And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;”
B. 2Timothy 3:1, “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.”
C.Hebrews 1:2, “In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”
D. James 5:3, “Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!”
E. 1Peter 1:20, “For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.”
F. 2Peter 3:3, “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts.” Peter confirms the presence of these in his time as testimony that they were in the last days on the first century.
G. 1John 2:18, “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.”
H. Jude 1:18, “That they were saying to you, 'In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.'” Like Peter, Jude confirms the presence of these in his time as testimony to the fact that they were in the last days on the first century and that this was the time prophesied by Enoch.
By oldhermit
Now I am not going to pretend that I understand all the consequences and implications that are linked to the term “the last days” but, it is certain that it is always associated with both blessing and/or judgment from God. What many have attempted to do is assign a strict and limited definition of time to this term and relegate it solely to a time that is still yet future, but this is not how we generally see it used in scripture. This term is very often used in connection with Israel but does not always represent the same period of time in their history; for example, sometimes it will refer to times related strictly to the OT period as in Daniel 8 which is a partial restating of what Daniel saw in chapter 11 simply cast in different symbols. Here, “the last days” is limited to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and his destruction of Jerusalem. Other times it refers to the last days of the Jewish economy which was marked by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It also seems to be used in Daniel 12:9 to refer to the end of all time as marked by the resurrection of the dead.
“The Last Days” never seems to have been used by any New Testament writer to refer to the end of the world. The first century Christians were living in the last days of the Jewish economy. It was not the Christian's last days, nor was it the last days of the world, nor of any specified nation other than Israel. It was the last days of the nation of Israel. It represented a time frame of some 37 years that stretched from between 33 AD to 70 AD. This language is used both in connection with the beginning of the reign of Messiah, and the destruction of Jerusalem.
What are “The Last Days” and to whom do they apply? This expression is limited in its application by scripture, not by the reader. It was limited to a specific group of peopleand to a specific time in THEIR history. As it referred to the end of the Jewish economy it defined the destruction of the nation, the killing and scattering of the people, the destruction of the capitol city, the desecration and destruction of the temple, the end of their sacrificial worship, and the destruction of their culture both religiously and politically. This would also end the nation of Israel's association with God. Exclusivity with God would no longer be defined ethnically. As a race, Israel existed only as a type whose appointed function had been fulfilled. Israel was the Bride of Jehovah through whom Messiah would come. All the nations of the earth would be blessed through her. Exclusivity now shifts from the physical to the spiritual. A Jew is now redefined, Romans 2:28-29 – “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” After the destruction of the Jewish economy, no generation is recognized by scripture as being in the last days as it is unlikely that any New Testament book was written after 69 AD. We are not now, nor have we ever been in the last days as this term is used in scripture. This period of time has been closed of by historical fulfillment. The following list of New Testament books represents all of the NT books that make use of the phrase “the last days” and the most likely time of their writing.
Acts – AD 62-64, 2Timothy – AD 62-66, Hebrews – AD 63-66, James – before AD 60, 2Peter – AD 66-67, 1John AD 60-65, 2John – AD 66-68, Jude – AD 66-69 (maybe early 70), Revelation – AD 62-68.
What did the prophets say would happen in the last days as this related to Israel?
I. Old Testament focus of the “Last Days”
A. Ezekiel 38:16, “And you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.” This is a prophesy against Israel that deals with the destruction of the nation by the Assyrians in 722 BC. “In the last days” then is endemic to that specific destruction.
B. Daniel 8:17, “So he came near to where I was standing, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face; but he said to me, 'Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.'” This is a prophesy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes in 169 BC.
C. Daniel 10:14, “Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.” These days were in the future with respect to the time of Daniel.
D. Daniel 11:35, “Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.” This has an extraordinary and detailed historic fulfillment from the time of Darius to Antiochus Epiphanes. If you like, I can provide this for you as well.
II. As God Used the Term “Last Days” regarding the nations of Moab and Elam.
A. Jeremiah 48:47, “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab in the latter days, declares the LORD. Thus far the judgment on Moab.”
B. Jeremiah 49:39, “But it will come about in the last days that I will restore the fortunes of Elam, declares the LORD.” Although God said he would destroy Moab and Elam he promised that he would restore their fortunes in “the latter days.” This seems to have redemptive aspirations regarding the salvation of the Gentiles in the last days. These are not the first times God uses the term “I will restore the fortunes” in this connection.
III. End of Time Focus
Daniel 12:40, “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.” This seems to refer to the full end of human history as it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.
IV. New Testament Focus:
A. Genesis 49:1, “Then Jacob summoned his sons and said, “Assemble yourselves that I may tell you what will befall you in the last days.” That this has Messianic focus related to the coming of the Messiah out of the tribe of Judah is clearly seen in Jacob's prophesy concerning the tribe of Judah in verses 8-12.
B. Micah 4:1, “And it will come about in the last days that the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it.”
C. Isaiah 2:2, “Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.”
D.Jeremiah 23:20, “The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart; In the last days you will clearly understand it.” This entire chapter deals with the coming of their Messiah.
E. Hosea 3:5, “Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.”
V. The Last Days as Spoken of by the New Testament
A. Acts 2:17, “And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;”
B. 2Timothy 3:1, “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.”
C.Hebrews 1:2, “In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”
D. James 5:3, “Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!”
E. 1Peter 1:20, “For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.”
F. 2Peter 3:3, “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts.” Peter confirms the presence of these in his time as testimony that they were in the last days on the first century.
G. 1John 2:18, “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.”
H. Jude 1:18, “That they were saying to you, 'In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.'” Like Peter, Jude confirms the presence of these in his time as testimony to the fact that they were in the last days on the first century and that this was the time prophesied by Enoch.
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That kind of thinking is giving me a lot of credit. "I do not leave room," it is the Word that tells us New Jerusalem will come down from God, not I. This can be the only spiritual restoration of the Israel of God. I do not see the Jews of the flesh vacated from all countries in favor of living in the Israel of this world, this age, do you?
There is only one true Israel. It is written about and foretold throughout the Word. If you believe the Israel of this age is the final restoration, your faith is in them material and not in the eternal. Of course I do not belie your faith is such, but it does need to grow, as does all of our faith.
God bless you, and if you insist on arguing this about Israel, please find another with who to argue.
There is only one true Israel. It is written about and foretold throughout the Word. If you believe the Israel of this age is the final restoration, your faith is in them material and not in the eternal. Of course I do not belie your faith is such, but it does need to grow, as does all of our faith.
God bless you, and if you insist on arguing this about Israel, please find another with who to argue.
E
I did not ask you about new jerusalem. I asked you if God would keep his word to the nation of Isreal today if they repented. Big difference.
It can? Says who? why can't their be a physical restoration of a nation repents according to what she is commanded to do in Lev 26 and other OT passages?
No, not right now. Nor have they repented, Have they? SO we would not expect them to be restored in a state of sin.. would we?
what Isreal of this age? I did not even mention any isreal of this age, so where are you getting this from?
No My faith is in the eternal.
When God says I give you this forever, He means it. Sadly many do not..
Argue? Who is arguing?
You made a statement, I am questioning you on it. are you saying we are not supposed to ask questions in a Christian Bible Discussion Forum?
so again, Do you have an answer to my original question?
What would happen to the nation of Isreal if 300 years from ow (if the Lord has not yet returned) they see their sin, repent, and receive their true Messiah? Would God remember his promise, and his gifts or would he just leave it at status quo (where they are) in the world, and make them wait for the new Jerusalem? (Which is a city, and not even Israel)
It can? Says who? why can't their be a physical restoration of a nation repents according to what she is commanded to do in Lev 26 and other OT passages?
No, not right now. Nor have they repented, Have they? SO we would not expect them to be restored in a state of sin.. would we?
what Isreal of this age? I did not even mention any isreal of this age, so where are you getting this from?
No My faith is in the eternal.
When God says I give you this forever, He means it. Sadly many do not..
Argue? Who is arguing?
You made a statement, I am questioning you on it. are you saying we are not supposed to ask questions in a Christian Bible Discussion Forum?
so again, Do you have an answer to my original question?
What would happen to the nation of Isreal if 300 years from ow (if the Lord has not yet returned) they see their sin, repent, and receive their true Messiah? Would God remember his promise, and his gifts or would he just leave it at status quo (where they are) in the world, and make them wait for the new Jerusalem? (Which is a city, and not even Israel)
E
Oh it is? I am not even sure if that is true, as some do.. that is yet to be determined, It may be, It may not be
But I am not I am not trying to discuss the Israel of this age with you, I am trying to discuss a future Israel, who repents as a nation, Not a current Israel, whi is my enemy concerning the gospel. as they have been for over 2000 years now.
But I am not I am not trying to discuss the Israel of this age with you, I am trying to discuss a future Israel, who repents as a nation, Not a current Israel, whi is my enemy concerning the gospel. as they have been for over 2000 years now.
E
Ok, Then thanks.
According to you, if (remember, If) Israel repents, then God will not remember his promise to the fathers, and restore them.
and OH PS.. A future Israel who repents of the sins of the Isreal of thiss age, And her fathers, and her own sin, and turns to God, and receives her messiah, would not infer anything to do with the Isreal of this age, who is in a state of sin and rebellion.
Why you think they would be equal, I must be honest, I can not fathom, But thanks for clarifying what you believe.
That is all I needed to know
You are putting ideas, thoughts and words I have never used.........You may be willing to do and say anything in order to carry on a dispute, but I do not dispute what has been made clear. God bless you, and may He grand you His wisdom and knowledge.
Ok, Then thanks.
According to you, if (remember, If) Israel repents, then God will not remember his promise to the fathers, and restore them.
and OH PS.. A future Israel who repents of the sins of the Isreal of thiss age, And her fathers, and her own sin, and turns to God, and receives her messiah, would not infer anything to do with the Isreal of this age, who is in a state of sin and rebellion.
Why you think they would be equal, I must be honest, I can not fathom, But thanks for clarifying what you believe.
That is all I needed to know
Ok, Then thanks.
According to you, if (remember, If) Israel repents, then God will not remember his promise to the fathers, and restore them.
and OH PS.. A future Israel who repents of the sins of the Isreal of thiss age, And her fathers, and her own sin, and turns to God, and receives her messiah, would not infer anything to do with the Isreal of this age, who is in a state of sin and rebellion.
Why you think they would be equal, I must be honest, I can not fathom, But thanks for clarifying what you believe.
That is all I needed to know