Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

[Crazy4GODword]

Oh i know what you are Saying,,,,,yeah we believe they are God but not each other (my mistake)

YEP

I am a trinity believer

 

[Crazy4GODword]

But my scriptures still prove Trinity if not then what??? what bro?

 

[Red33]

you are contradicting john1:14. the word was made flesh,not God.

This is what the scriptures testify...

Jn1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I don't know what you get when you put (verse 1) with (verse 44) but I get that the WORD WAS GOD AND GOD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US.

This could only be speaking of Jesus Christ in the flesh and their is NO CONTRADICTION as you presume, GOD WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH (Rom 8:3).

Jesus Christ was God in the flesh and was the exact expressed image of His person (Heb 1:3).

Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Phil 2:6).

In these verses there is no difference between the Father ad the Son. This is why when Christ as on the earth He could say without a single word of inaccuracy that ...

if you have seen me you have have seen the Father (Jn 14:7-9) ...

because we are ONE (Jn 10:30) ...

the Father was in the Son and the Son was in the Father (Jn 14:10,11, 17:21)...

These are all expressions of His divinity and diety that He had with the Father which differed not one iota.

'Philip why do you ask me to show you the Father... Have I been so long time with you and yet thou hast not known me?' (Jn 14:9)

If you were Philip and you requested the Lord to show you the Father and the Lord replied to you as he did to Philip, what would you think that the Lord was saying?

 

[Red33]

But my scriptures still prove Trinity if not then what??? what bro?

God has put the truth in your heart that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh as the Son of God. That is a very precious truth concerning the relationship between the Father and the Son. Do not let anyone rob you of that truth no matter what they do to convince you otherwise. They are in grave error and know not the truth concerning who Jesus Christ is. The Holy Spirit can only reveal the truth and has revealed through the written word that God came in the flesh through the person of His Son and dwelt among man. We worship the Father and the Son because they are one and reveal one God through the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the word. Be confident in this always and keep your eye upon Christ. He is the living God and has redeemed us from our sin with his blood.

 

[livingbygrace]

This is what the scriptures testify...

Jn1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the begining was the word(Christ) and the word was with/besides God and the word(itself) was God. He was with God in the begining

For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 12:49
The Lord said to me
What they say is good. I will raise up from them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND HE WILL TELL THEM EVERYTHING I COMMAND HIM
Duet 18:18

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I don't know what you get when you put (verse 1) with (verse 44) but I get that the WORD WAS GOD AND GOD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US.

This could only be speaking of Jesus Christ in the flesh and their is NO CONTRADICTION as you presume, GOD WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH (Rom 8:3).

Jesus Christ was God in the flesh and was the exact expressed image of His person (Heb 1:3).

God was in Christ in the flesh, but Christ claimed to be the son of God and claimed only the Father was the one true God




Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Phil 2:6).

In these verses there is no difference between the Father ad the Son. This is why when Christ as on the earth He could say without a single word of inaccuracy that ...

What was the bait used to tempt Eve to eat the apple?
Equality with God. She ate and so did Adam
But the second Adam did not take or desire such a bait and did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, and what was the result?

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name
that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow
in Heaven and on earth and under the earth
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord
TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER




if you have seen me you have have seen the Father (Jn 14:7-9) ...

because we are ONE (Jn 10:30) ...

That they(the believers) may be one AS we are one
John 17:22

So if we know how we the believers can be one we know how Christ and his Father are one
We the believers can only be one in the spirit, of one heart and one mind in the spirit but we are still individual people
That they may be one AS we are one



the Father was in the Son and the Son was in the Father (Jn 14:10,11, 17:21)...

That all of them may be one Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US
So do we have equality with God based on these verses?




These are all expressions of His divinity and diety that He had with the Father which differed not one iota.

'Philip why do you ask me to show you the Father... Have I been so long time with you and yet thou hast not known me?' (Jn 14:9)

Christ spoke the words his Father gave him to speak. He is a true reflection of who his Father is and showed the characteristics of his Father eg love, mercy, compassion, therefore the disciples had seen a reflection of who the Father is.
If that verse is taken literally as you would like then the Father himself was seen by the disciples, that is not possible


If you were Philip and you requested the Lord to show you the Father and the Lord replied to you as he did to Philip, what would you think that the Lord was saying?

How many have taken the bait of mans human understanding today?

 

[livingbygrace]

In relation to those who say we must believe Christ is God himself to have eternal life, remember this scripture

Do not go beyond what is written
Rom 4:6

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I doubt there is as much disagreement between us as you may think in essence of the nature of the son. I would disagree with your interpretation of Phil 2:6 though. I will give you the answer someone posted on another website. He believed in the Trinity, but not an equal Trinity

What was the bait used by satan to tempt Eve to eat the apple?
Equality with God, being as God. Gen 3:5
Eve fell for the bait and Adam followed

But although Christ being in the nature of God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
So the second Adam was not tempted to desire equality with God, though he had the very nature of God himself.

And what was the result?

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name
that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow
in Heaven and on earth and under the earth
and every tongue con fess that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God, the Father

I agree with you, the Father is the supreme authority. I have said this before and will once again.

The Spirit exhibits in Christ. The fulness of the Godhead bodily rests on Christ. Therefore, the Father is fully in the son via the Spirit. The Fathers work is done THROUGH the son. The son speaks the words of the Father.
But, and this is the root of our disagreement I guess. Can Christ have the spirit of his Father so fully in him and still not be God Himself? For the spirit of the Father is fully in the son

Remember, Jesus had to be totally man. He set everything aside, Even his omniscience. and the mind he had before coming to earth. If he did not do this, He would have not been able to sin. Thus his sacrifice would have been null and void. He needed the HS to do the things he was now unable to do. Including having to learn what his mission was, and what he needed to do. The only thing Christ did not have that we had at birth, was the old nature. He was born as Adam was created.

I guess fir the answer to that you have to decide what you stand on in your Christianity.
The teaching of men?
The rational mind and intellect and what seems correct according to the working out of the rational mind?
Or do you stand on the plainest of Bible verses on this subject?(I am generalising here)

When I was eleven or twelve I sat in my sunday school class at the fundamentalist church I went to and the sunday schlool teacher looked at me and said
'You have to accept ALL of the Bible, you cannot pick and choose what you accept, it is the word of God'

I never forgot those words and have always wanted to stand on scripture, and that must come before any teaching that would contradict the plain words of the Bible

And it is a fact that if we give Christ the title of the one true God Himself you have to dismiss the plainest of scripture on this subject in the Bible. I cannot do that.

I do not give Christ that Title. That Title goes to the Father. Again look at what makes God God. What makes him above the angels. Christ was above the angels before he came to earth, He made himself lower than the angles. What is above angels? The only think I know if is God. UNless there is another title given to the HS and Christ who is above angels but below the father. I can find no other name or title.

As a teenager I believed what I was taught in church. When I finally read the Bible for myself when I was 19 I realised I had not been taught much of the basics of the Gospel by a church that considered itself fundamental

Been there done that, I also grew up in a fundamental church

Many judge that I am condemned, for my beliefs, but God knows my heart(and I cannot rightly trust completely the motives of my heart it can be deceitful) and to the best of the ability of what I am given by God I will remasin faithful to the plain, emphatic statements in the Bible on this subject, and I know I will never be condemned for that by Christ, by ,many men yes, but not by Christ on the day of judgement for to me the Bible is the final authority, not man, and not creeds or councils
And I am sure that by the grace of God both of our beliefs and the way we see this subject will not hinder our entry into Heaven for we both know the bottom line, bjut many have taken 'the bait' and do not accept the Biblical botytom line for salvation

You believe Jesus is the son of God, sent by the father, to pay the penalty for your sin. And yu are unable to make retribution for sin yourself, and only Christ redeeming death saves you. So I do not doubt your salvation at all.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

God has put the truth in your heart that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh as the Son of God. That is a very precious truth concerning the relationship between the Father and the Son. Do not let anyone rob you of that truth no matter what they do to convince you otherwise. They are in grave error and know not the truth concerning who Jesus Christ is. The Holy Spirit can only reveal the truth and has revealed through the written word that God came in the flesh through the person of His Son and dwelt among man. We worship the Father and the Son because they are one and reveal one God through the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the word. Be confident in this always and keep your eye upon Christ. He is the living God and has redeemed us from our sin with his blood.

I adamantly affirm and believe that Jesus Christ is God. I don't have to believe Filioque-Trinity error-upon-error to do so. And Scripture doesn't mandate belief in Christ's Deity as essential to salvific faith.

You misrepresent Scripture on each count. I will take up the cause and insist you provide Scripture that demands salvation and eternal life depend specifically on belief that Christ is God. I believe Jesus is "more" God than you do (not that that's actually possible), but I don't add to scriptural requirements.

 

[wakeup]

BACK WHAT YOU SAY WITH SCRIPTURE.

Matthew 8:2
matthew 14:33

JOHN 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

HE DID NOT SAY:
"MY LORD'S SON AND MY GOD'S SON!"

how about this oneslms110:1. the lord said unto''my lord'' sit thou on my right hand.,until i make thine enemies thy footstool.

 

[wakeup]

BACK WHAT YOU SAY WITH SCRIPTURE.

Matthew 8:2
matthew 14:33

JOHN 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

HE DID NOT SAY:
"MY LORD'S SON AND MY GOD'S SON!"

how about this one. pslm 110:1. the Lord said unto my Lord sit thou on my right hand until i make thine enemy thy footstool.

 

[livingbygrace]

Red

I know you have stated you do not wish me to put anymore questions to you, but I would remind you this is a thread instigated by you.

PPS has asked you questions pertaining to what you have written in this the thread you statrted. I believe it is incumbent upon yourself to answer fully questions people are putting to you on a thread you statrted
If you do not have the courage to do so I believe inevitably your credibility on CC concerning your Biblical knowledge and beliefs will be severely damaged

The reason I mention this is because there is no more important a subject than what a person must believe to have eternal life. You have said many times that a belief that Christ is the son of God and not God Himself means a person is possessed by the spirit of antichrist, they are a heretic and condemned and can have no eternal life. A person has to believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life

These are statements of the greatest importance concerning what is neccessary to be believed to have eternal life. To make them and then not to respond to questions pertaining to them on a thread you started is I believe a severe lacking on your part .

You have continuously been asked to produce scripture backing up your belief on this subject and have constantly failed to do so.
As PPS writes far more eloquently than can I and has asked you direct questions pertaioning to your belief and asked you for the scriptural proof to back up what you are saying I believe it is your duty to reply to him

If you do not it will as previously said not reflect well on you.

And I repeat, this is too important a subject to be ducked. You have made the statements you have condemning others and saying they are possessed by the spirit of antichrist for in effect standing on plain scripture. Please do not make comments such as this and run, please answer the valid questions put to you

 

[Red33]

If the Father is greater than the Son in terms of His diety, His holiness, His justice and His divine attributes, then you would have to separate the Son from the Father and explain how that is. And if you believe that God was not manifest in the flesh through His Son, wouldn't you have to admit that the Son paid for the sins of man and not the Father making the Son greater in relationship to dealing with the sin issue? After all it would be the Son's blood that was shed, not the Father's or the Holy Spirit's for that matter. If the Father was not in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself by not imputing their sins, then all credit and glory must go to the Son and not the Father because the Son did the actual work.

But the Son never operated independently of the Father in any area because He was perfectly one in all things. The Son never had a thought independent of the Father nor did the Father have any thought independent from the Son. The Son did the work of His Father and the Father did no work without the Son. The Son was the expressed image of the Father in every thought, in every action, every judgment and in every work. The Father was in the Son and the Son was in the Father. To see the Son was to see the Father. There was no difference. The Father took on human form through the Son and that is the mystery of godliness, GOD WITH US and GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.

Those that believe that Jesus Christ was not God in the flesh and make the Father greater than the Son are also the same ones that make the Holy Spirit that was sent by the Father greater than the Son. They justify by saying that blasphemy against the Son is forgivable but against the Holy Spirit it is not. They also esteem the gifts of the Holy Spirit of greater importance then forgiveness and the salvation that came through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, by charging those that simply believe upon Christ of 'easy believism' or without true repentance. They want you to believe that faith without the work of repentance is dead and that reveals whether you are saved or not.

They want you to believe that if you do not speak in tongues that you might not have the Holy Spirit but you certainly have no power in your life and need a special baptism for that. They teach that the Holy Spirit speaks to us without the Son being involved and if you ask them why the Son is not involved they have no explanation except to say that He is in heaven. They teach that miracles, signs and wonders must follow to confirm those who are from God, yet they themselves have not this proof and belittle those that receive from God by faith. They emphasize that the cross of Christ without the Spirit is not enough to save a sinner that paid for all his sins making the Spirit greater than Christ and the work of the cross. If Jesus is great enough to shed His blood and pay for the sins of man is He not great enough to forgive man's sins as well as give eternal life to them?

If the Father is greater than the Son (other than being clothed with humanity), are we to think the same of the scripture that states in (Heb 2:7)...

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Are we to take this scripture and also claim that the angels are greater than and above the Son? No, because that verse is not to be understood in that manner and would be nullified by (Hebrews chapter 1 among others).

 

[Red33]

Red

I know you have stated you do not wish me to put anymore questions to you, but I would remind you this is a thread instigated by you.

PPS has asked you questions pertaining to what you have written in this the thread you statrted. I believe it is incumbent upon yourself to answer fully questions people are putting to you on a thread you statrted
If you do not have the courage to do so I believe inevitably your credibility on CC concerning your Biblical knowledge and beliefs will be severely damaged

The reason I mention this is because there is no more important a subject than what a person must believe to have eternal life. You have said many times that a belief that Christ is the son of God and not God Himself means a person is possessed by the spirit of antichrist, they are a heretic and condemned and can have no eternal life. A person has to believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life

These are statements of the greatest importance concerning what is neccessary to be believed to have eternal life. To make them and then not to respond to questions pertaining to them on a thread you started is I believe a severe lacking on your part .

You have continuously been asked to produce scripture backing up your belief on this subject and have constantly failed to do so.
As PPS writes far more eloquently than can I and has asked you direct questions pertaioning to your belief and asked you for the scriptural proof to back up what you are saying I believe it is your duty to reply to him

If you do not it will as previously said not reflect well on you.

And I repeat, this is too important a subject to be ducked. You have made the statements you have condemning others and saying they are possessed by the spirit of antichrist for in effect standing on plain scripture. Please do not make comments such as this and run, please answer the valid questions put to you

You are a very deceptive person and I will have nothing to do with you. Post to others as you wish, but leave me out.

 

[livingbygrace]

If the Father is greater than the Son in terms of His diety, His holiness, His justice and His divine attributes, then you would have to separate the Son from the Father and explain how that is. And if you believe that God was not manifest in the flesh through His Son, wouldn't you have to admit that the Son paid for the sins of man and not the Father making the Son greater in relationship to dealing with the sin issue? After all it would be the Son's blood that was shed, not the Father's or the Holy Spirit's for that matter. If the Father was not in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself by not imputing their sins, then all credit and glory must go to the Son and not the Father because the Son did the actual work.

But the Son never operated independently of the Father in any area because He was perfectly one in all things. The Son never had a thought independent of the Father nor did the Father have any thought independent from the Son. The Son did the work of His Father and the Father did no work without the Son. The Son was the expressed image of the Father in every thought, in every action, every judgment and in every work. The Father was in the Son and the Son was in the Father. To see the Son was to see the Father. There was no difference. The Father took on human form through the Son and that is the mystery of godliness, GOD WITH US and GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.

Those that believe that Jesus Christ was not God in the flesh and make the Father greater than the Son are also the same ones that make the Holy Spirit that was sent by the Father greater than the Son. They justify by saying that blasphemy against the Son is forgivable but against the Holy Spirit it is not. They also esteem the gifts of the Holy Spirit of greater importance then forgiveness and the salvation that came through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, by charging those that simply believe upon Christ of 'easy believism' or without true repentance. They want you to believe that faith without the work of repentance is dead and that reveals whether you are saved or not.

They want you to believe that if you do not speak in tongues that you might not have the Holy Spirit but you certainly have no power in your life and need a special baptism for that. They teach that the Holy Spirit speaks to us without the Son being involved and if you ask them why the Son is not involved they have no explanation except to say that He is in heaven. They teach that miracles, signs and wonders must follow to confirm those who are from God, yet they themselves have not this proof and belittle those that receive from God by faith. They emphasize that the cross of Christ without the Spirit is not enough to save a sinner that paid for all his sins making the Spirit greater than Christ and the work of the cross. If Jesus is great enough to shed His blood and pay for the sins of man is He not great enough to forgive man's sins as well as give eternal life to them?

If the Father is greater than the Son (other than being clothed with humanity), are we to think the same of the scripture that states in (Heb 2:7)...

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Are we to take this scripture and also claim that the angels are greater than and above the Son? No, because that verse is not to be understood in that manner and would be nullified by (Hebrews chapter 1 among others).

I have to be honest here. This post of yours contains many misleading and untrue statements that you attribute to me. If a person has to resort to untruths they have certainly lost the argument and cannot scripturally refute what others believe or use scriptrure to back up what they believe

 

[livingbygrace]

I adamantly affirm and believe that Jesus Christ is God. I don't have to believe Filioque-Trinity error-upon-error to do so. And Scripture doesn't mandate belief in Christ's Deity as essential to salvific faith.

You misrepresent Scripture on each count. I will take up the cause and insist you provide Scripture that demands salvation and eternal life depend specifically on belief that Christ is God. I believe Jesus is "more" God than you do (not that that's actually possible), but I don't add to scriptural requirements.

And I hope you will have the courage to directly answer this post of PPS on a thread you started.

If you fail to do so as I have previously said your credibility must suffer if you have to duck questions of the utmost importance put to you on a thread you started pertaining to your comments on such a thread

 

[livingbygrace]

You are a very deceptive person and I will have nothing to do with you. Post to others as you wish, but leave me out.

Does this mean you will also have nothing to do with PPS, or will you answer the questions he puts to you?

The truth is you want to sidestep what I continuously ask you as you have no answers to the simple questions put to you

You make bold statements condemning others who stand on plain scripture but when asked to give scripture to support your condemnation of others you cannot do so.

You can use a smokescreen of saying I am a deceptive person, but then I could question the motive of your heart in your condemnation of others.

 

[livingbygrace]

As Red is ignoring my comments could someone else ask him the following two questions please

Can he produce a verse of scripture where Christ commanded anyone to believe he was God Himself?

Can he produce a scripture where Christ stated that unless a person believes he is God Himself they can have no etetrnal life

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Red

I know you have stated you do not wish me to put anymore questions to you, but I would remind you this is a thread instigated by you.

PPS has asked you questions pertaining to what you have written in this the thread you statrted. I believe it is incumbent upon yourself to answer fully questions people are putting to you on a thread you statrted
If you do not have the courage to do so I believe inevitably your credibility on CC concerning your Biblical knowledge and beliefs will be severely damaged

The reason I mention this is because there is no more important a subject than what a person must believe to have eternal life. You have said many times that a belief that Christ is the son of God and not God Himself means a person is possessed by the spirit of antichrist, they are a heretic and condemned and can have no eternal life. A person has to believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life

These are statements of the greatest importance concerning what is neccessary to be believed to have eternal life. To make them and then not to respond to questions pertaining to them on a thread you started is I believe a severe lacking on your part .

You have continuously been asked to produce scripture backing up your belief on this subject and have constantly failed to do so.
As PPS writes far more eloquently than can I and has asked you direct questions pertaioning to your belief and asked you for the scriptural proof to back up what you are saying I believe it is your duty to reply to him

If you do not it will as previously said not reflect well on you.

And I repeat, this is too important a subject to be ducked. You have made the statements you have condemning others and saying they are possessed by the spirit of antichrist for in effect standing on plain scripture. Please do not make comments such as this and run, please answer the valid questions put to you

Hi, LBG-

From my years of experience AS a Trinitarian, and my years of experience since then in dealing WITH Trinitarians; I have learned to recognize the many function pattetns of reasoning and rationale regarding Godhead beliefs and their relation to Christ-Deity beliefs.

In general, Trinis absolutely equate the Deity of Christ solely with Trinitarianism, and most don't even have a working understanding of their own doctrine, much less the various other Godhead doctrines throughout history. A large part of it is a genuine, but misplaced, sense of reverence and humility of sorts. They feel incredulous that they or anyone else could or should challenge what they perceive as foundational doctrine from "the pillar and ground of the truth", the "Church".

I was destitute in my "faith" as a Trinitarian Pastor, and didn't know what was missing after doing all the "right" things. But... I didn't know in whom I had believed, and my Trinitarian understanding of God wasn't salvific faith. I have ministered to many, including Pastors, who have realized the same thing. Without realizing it, I was trusting WHAT I believed for salvation, rather than WHO I believed for salvation.

Trinity is a doctrinal formulation of men that succeeded the Apostles, and went beyond Apostolic belief and definition. That doctrine has overshadowed every simple truth of Scripture, replacing scriptural with creedal. This is what "trickles down" to the demand of salvific faith including Christ's Deity.

You don't seem to be placing your faith in a WHAT of belief; you seem to believe in a very specific WHO, and that Jesus was Deity by identity rather than intrinsic nature.

Scripture doesn't require more that what it plainly says for salvation. I'd like to see someone build a scriptural foundation otherwise if it can be done.

 

[Red33]

Is there salvation or eternal life without the Son? If these are of the Father who is greater than the Son, then why send the Son when we can believe the one and only true God without the Son. The scripture testifies...

1Jn 5:11-13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There is no eternal life without the Son and God gave the record not man. To believe the one and only true God without the Son is to not have eternal life. Even though the Father has life in himself, God sent His Son and without believing in the Son we have no life in us. No man can come unto the Father except through the Son and no man can have life without the Son. All that the Father has, has been given to the Son. Nothing was created by God without the Son and through the Him all things consist.

Jn 15:3-5
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

To take the Son away is to take the very presence and life of God away. To deny the Son is to deny the Father who sent His only begotten Son. To deny the words of the Son is to deny the words of the one that sent Him. To believe upon the Son is to believe upon God who sent Him. Without the Son there would be no Father and there would be no creation and nothing would exist. All life that exists comes from the Son, who is before all things.

 

[livingbygrace]

Is there salvation or eternal life without the Son? If these are of the Father who is greater than the Son, then why send the Son when we can believe the one and only true God without the Son. The scripture testifies...

1Jn 5:11-13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There is no eternal life without the Son and God gave the record not man. To believe the one and only true God without the Son is to not have eternal life. Even though the Father has life in himself, God sent His Son and without believing in the Son we have no life in us. No man can come unto the Father except through the Son and no man can have life without the Son. All that the Father has, has been given to the Son. Nothing was created by God without the Son and through the Him all things consist.

Jn 15:3-5
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

To take the Son away is to take the very presence and life of God away. To deny the Son is to deny the Father who sent His only begotten Son. To deny the words of the Son is to deny the words of the one that sent Him. To believe upon the Son is to believe upon God who sent Him. Without the Son there would be no Father and there would be no creation and nothing would exist. All life that exists comes from the Son, who is before all things.

This of course does not answer the questions put to you by PPS or myself, just an attempt by you to evade directly answering questions, for you cannot produce scripture to back up what you believe. So I see little point on commenting on what you have written

But I will repeat

Please give me JUST ONE scripture where Christ said that unless we believe he is God Himself we cannot have eternal life. And if you cannot that means(according to your belief) that Christ did not tell people when he walked this earth what was neccessary to believe to have eternal life

And can you give me JUST ONE plain scripture where Christ commanded anyone to believe he was God Himself?

It seems that those who so eagerly condemn people and say they have no eternal life for simply standing on the plain words of Christ are the very people who have to evade so many questions and scripture put to them

So who is REALLY insecure Red where scripture and the basics of the Chrisatian faith are concerned?

Empty vessels make the most noise!