Jesus didn't come to separate the old and new covenants.

[MarcR]

I don't believe that I have said that we cannot garner understanding nor learn anything from any other part of scripture.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scripture might have hope. [Romans 15:4 KJV]

For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. [Romans 15:4 NIV]

When I made my comment, I wasn't aiming at anyone. In fact I had not read your first post on this thread yet. I got an early impression that just-me was being misunderstood and I wanted to find out if I was right.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by SeaBass

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

What Law was changed?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The Law that stated that Aaron and his sons would be Priests. The Law that excluded a Jew (one from the tribe of Judah) from being a Priest.

The ministry of Death, written on stone, was changed to the ministry of life, written on the heart.

The carnal commandment was changed to spiritual rest.

The work of the flesh and will was changed to the work of the Holy Spirit.

The law of sin and death was changed to the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

The ministry of condemnation was changed to the ministry of Righteousness.

 

[prove-all]

wine was a new testament not a new covent

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

​

And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

​

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter,
but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.​

​

​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The mystery is Christ in you, the hope of glory. [Col. 1:26,27] The mystery is salvation, righteousness, justification through birth, being born again of incorruptible seed, permanence of salvation. A believer is now sealed with the gift of holy spirit, a new creation, no longer Jew nor Gentile but members in particular of the body of Christ. OT righteousness came by the works of the law. [Deut. 6:25] "What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? - keep the commandments, (still under the law administration) [Matt. 19:16-18] - when the Philipian jailer asks the same question in Acts 16:29-31 - Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (inherit eternal life) - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

I don't believe I said anything concerning grace . . .

And Messiah as the suffering servant and Messiah as King is prophesied in the OT so it wouldn't have been hid.

it had to be hid, otherwise satan would have done all he could to stop messiah from being killed.

That was the mystery from the beginning.

The suffering servant is prophesied yes, But no one knew the suffering servant and Christ would be one.

Abraham was justified by faith, Justification is not new to the NT, Abraham knew all about it, re read about it in genesis.

 

[Grandpa]

Something to consider

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Ok. Considering...

Galatians 4:4-7
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[john832]

Hebrews 8:13 ESV
13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Mark 2:22 KJV 2000
And no man puts new wine into old wineskins: else the new wine does burst the wineskins, and the wine is spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined: but new wine must be put into new wineskins.


Romans 10:3,4 KJV
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 5:18 KJV
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The problem here is that you are confusing the Covenants with the Law.

 

[dcontroversal]

So you believe the epistles are inspired and should be obeyed but there are thirty nine books that should be ripped out?

Why not go find one place in the 10000 plus posts I have made and see if you can find where I said to rip out the 39 books of the O.T. as a matter of fact if you knew me or could ask the people that know me what I think about the O.T. they will tell you I teach out of it quite a bit, having said that.....I will not ALLEVIATE the N.T. and the WORDS inspired that are pointed at and aimed at the LAW of Ordinances that was AGAINST us......NOR will I NEGATE that fact that JESUS said the ENTIRE LAW AND PROPHETS (O.T.) are LUMPED under 2 (TWO) and ONLY 2 (TWO) commands.......

LOVE GOD and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

NOR will I negate the act that the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD has been IMPUTED unto the BELIEVER...a thing which THE LAW COULD NEVER DO because it's failure is that it is WEAK through the FLESH because NO MAN except JESUS can KEEP THE WHOLE LAW......YES MALACHI has future APPLICATION which is CONTAINED in PROPHECY but the 7-8 ASSERTIONS were made against ISRAEL NOT ME!

YOU CANNOT KEEP the whole law and to blend the LAW with GRACE to maintain righteousness contradicts the N.T. and the FREEDOM found therein......

 

[pem]

So, help me out Dcon, my friend, do you believe that something Paul said overrides something that Christ said?

The Bible is the Word of God - ALL OF IT. Many folk make a cult out of using the red-letters in some bibles as the ONLY gospel.

 

[Grandpa]

Nothing is new under the sun and this is clear from scripture. Yeshua was in the perfect place to reveal all so why didn't He do it and leave it to Paul to create a hornets nest?

The Lord Jesus did reveal it. Paul just explained that what the Lord Jesus has done is a new thing. Brand New. And Better than anything else before.

Matthew 11:27-30
[SUP]27 [/SUP]All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Grandpa]

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

We should take Peter’s warning to hart when reading the letters from Paul as this is the source of confusion in the Christian religion today. I am not an anti-Paul guy myself but we can clearly identify the problem when looking at churches today.

1 Timothy 1:5-7
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Paul isn't the source of confusion.

 

[john832]

Why not go find one place in the 10000 plus posts I have made and see if you can find where I said to rip out the 39 books of the O.T. as a matter of fact if you knew me or could ask the people that know me what I think about the O.T. they will tell you I teach out of it quite a bit, having said that.....I will not ALLEVIATE the N.T. and the WORDS inspired that are pointed at and aimed at the LAW of Ordinances that was AGAINST us......NOR will I NEGATE that fact that JESUS said the ENTIRE LAW AND PROPHETS (O.T.) are LUMPED under 2 (TWO) and ONLY 2 (TWO) commands.......

LOVE GOD and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

NOR will I negate the act that the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD has been IMPUTED unto the BELIEVER...a thing which THE LAW COULD NEVER DO because it's failure is that it is WEAK through the FLESH because NO MAN except JESUS can KEEP THE WHOLE LAW......YES MALACHI has future APPLICATION which is CONTAINED in PROPHECY but the 7-8 ASSERTIONS were made against ISRAEL NOT ME!

YOU CANNOT KEEP the whole law and to blend the LAW with GRACE to maintain righteousness contradicts the N.T. and the FREEDOM found therein......

Why do you think the Ten Commandments were the ordinances against us? Dr. Robert Thiel does a much better job on this than I can...

What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:


Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:


14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law! - Dr. Robert Thiel

 

[john832]

1 Timothy 1:5-7
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Paul isn't the source of confusion.

So what are you saying Grandpa? Are you saying Peter had no idea what he was talking about?

2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Even the scripture itself tells us that Paul wrote things that were difficult to understand.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

The problem here is that you are confusing the Covenants with the Law.

No confusion here at least on my part anyway. The obsolete Old Covenant is about OT Law keeping through the flesh. The New covenant is about faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ that paid for all of our sins completely.......faith which works by love through the Spirit. The quoted verses are relevant to this discussion but the blindfold on your heart will not allow you to see the truth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The Bible is the Word of God - ALL OF IT. Many folk make a cult out of using the red-letters in some bibles as the ONLY gospel.

Yes we can not go by what Jesus said alone as He gave the milk of the gospel, and Paul was given the meat to give to believers.
The first error that people need to be pulled out of is believing that Apostle Paul in his epistles either overrode, changed, or did away with anything the Lord said. Paul did not do away with nothing the Lord said, but upheld every command and teaching of His. There is a false Paulinian gospel teaching out and around that are being taught in churches that do away with some to all of the Lords teachings and only go by Paul's letters as if they are different then what the Lord taught and hold more authority then Jesus words. If a person is having trouble following the Lords teaching then they are not ready to dive into Paul's teaching, as even the Lord said to the original 12 Apostles that He had much more to say to them but they were not ready to bare it yet because they were still struggling with His teaching.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by just-me

Imagine how shocked some professing Christians will be when they finally see Jesus face to face and all that they rejected, even using His Word as an excuse for that rejection through the years, and then what has been rejected in the end has been His truth all along.

Yep, reminds me of this...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Wow.

Do you ever cringe inside when you hear people bringing really bad things on themselves by their words? Like alarm bells going off and you just want to negate what they have said for their sakes?

I butt in when it comes to my family and negate their words of destruction on themselves. But I generally don't do it with people I don't know unless they are including me in their words.

It reminds me of this.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No confusion here at least on my part anyway. The obsolete Old Covenant is about OT Law keeping through the flesh. The New covenant is about faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ that paid for all of our sins completely.......faith which works by love through the Spirit. The quoted verses are relevant to this discussion but the blindfold on your heart will not allow you to see the truth.

Here is the issue though, and that is the Mosaic covenant is not the only covenant made within the OT.
And some of those covenants that were made in the OT for the Jews still apply to today, and the writings in the book of Psalms and Proverbs are not done away with, nor are the prophetic books either. So not all of the OT has been done away with, only the Mosaic covenant that has the laws placed in the written form that contains ordinances was done away.

Now from here being under the new covenant one must understand what was meant by, His laws are placed with in our heart and on our mind. What laws is being talked about here, and it does not mean we just know about them. It means like the Apostle Paul showed in expanding on what Jesus said, that by walking in love will uphold all of His commandments/teachings.

 

[michael56]

Here is the issue though, and that is the Mosaic covenant is not the only covenant made within the OT.
And some of those covenants that were made in the OT for the Jews still apply to today, and the writings in the book of Psalms and Proverbs are not done away with, nor are the prophetic books either. So not all of the OT has been done away with, only the Mosaic covenant that has the laws placed in the written form that contains ordinances was done away.

Now from here being under the new covenant one must understand what was meant by, His laws are placed with in our heart and on our mind. What laws is being talked about here, and it does not mean we just know about them. It means like the Apostle Paul showed in expanding on what Jesus said, that by walking in love will uphold all of His commandments/teachings.

On my heart is, I should not commit adultery, not steal, not murder, not covet etc. If you in your heart want to obey the law God desires you to keep, do you need the threat of the penalty of sin to help you want to obey? Or are your sins and lawless deeds remembered no more unto condemnation?

 

[john832]

Wow.

Do you ever cringe inside when you hear people bringing really bad things on themselves by their words? Like alarm bells going off and you just want to negate what they have said for their sakes?

I cringe when I see and hear those who dismiss the clear words of Christ...

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[kennethcadwell]

On my heart is, I should not commit adultery, not steal, not murder, not covet etc. If you in your heart want to obey the law God desires you to keep, do you need the threat of the penalty of sin to help you want to obey? Or are your sins and lawless deeds remembered no more unto condemnation?

We uphold the commandments by love as Paul clearly shows in Romans 13, and our sins and lawless deeds are remembered no more when we repent and confess them to the Lord for forgiveness. Then He being just will cover those sins with His blood and cleanse us from all unrighteousness to never be used against us any more. Repentance/confession has to be done to receive that remission by the Lord as the bible clearly shows.
Future sins are not automatically forgiven before committed and repented/confessed of, the bible does not teach that they are. If it did then Apostle Paul's constant warning of sins to believers would be useless, and in the epistles he wrote to the Apostle Timothy he warned him of becoming impure again do to sin. And Paul warned also in his epistles that no impure person will inherit eternal life.
I do agree that my sins and lawless deeds are remembered no more as the scripture says, but the scriptures also show this is after repentance and confession is made...........

 

[Grandpa]

So what are you saying Grandpa? Are you saying Peter had no idea what he was talking about?

2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Even the scripture itself tells us that Paul wrote things that were difficult to understand.

I am saying that Paul is not the source of peoples confusion. Those who have swerved unto vain jangling are the source of confusion.

If there are things that Paul says that are hard to understand then study them and show yourselves approved.

You post those scriptures all the time about how difficult it is to understand Paul but you hardly ever try to explain what he says.

It seems pretty simple to me that the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, a good conscience and faith unfeigned. Is it difficult for you to understand???