This was not the first time Jesus is seen overturning the physics of time and space. In John 6:21 we have the account of the calming of the storm. Notice that the sea is eight miles wide at is widest point and they had only been three or four miles from shore after they left Jesus so they are in the middle of the sea. But when Jesus gets into the boat, they are immediately at shore. Jesus collapses the distance between time and space. “And immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going.” I may be wrong but, it would seems to me that this is the greater miracle. Greater than the feeding of the multitude, greater even than the walking on the water. I would think it one thing to extend matter as he does with the loaves and the fish or to even manipulate matter and the elements of wind and water but, to over rule time and space, this seems to be something else all together. Jesus collapses the distance of about four or five miles between the position of the boat on the water and the opposite shore. Overturning time and space variables is certainly no problem with Jesus when he was in the flesh. This is precisely the same thing we see in Jesus sudden appearance in the closed room. The factor of walls and closed doors present no obstacle to his authority over natural laws whether he was in the flesh or not.
Jesus's Resurrection?
- Thread starter Jruiz
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V
He wasn't in heaven yet, in His transfigured body. It is obvious He resurrected in the flesh:
Jesus does not have a physical body in heaven. That fleshly body He had on Earth, and to which He was resurrected, had born the sin of the world upon it, though He Himself had no guilt. As such, He must be transfigured in heaven, just as His followers will be.
John 20, NASB
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Luke 24
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why * do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Luke 24
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why * do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Jesus does not have a physical body in heaven. That fleshly body He had on Earth, and to which He was resurrected, had born the sin of the world upon it, though He Himself had no guilt. As such, He must be transfigured in heaven, just as His followers will be.
1 Corinthians 15
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot * inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot * inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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Well said. (at least for me anyway)
According to the first chapter of Genesis, the cosmos is a created cosmos. In
other words; the laws of physics (a.k.a. natural laws) that govern the
created cosmos are not absolute laws; viz: they were created too. In point
of fact, He who invented those laws is quite capable of adjusting them to
make matter and energy behave in ways contrary to what one might
logically expect; for example:
In the book of Daniel; three Jewish guys named Shadrach, Meshach, and
Abed-nego were sentenced to be executed by roasting to death in a pit that
was fired so extra hot that the guards who threw the guys into it were slain
by its radiant heat. What happened to the three guys? Nothing: they were
unscathed; and in point of fact, not even their clothing caught fire, nor even
smelled like it had been in a fire.
In the book of Exodus; Moses encountered a bush aflame while tending his
father-in-law's sheep. Though the bush was blazing, the fire had no effect on
it.
In the same book, water defied gravity.
In the book of 2nd Kings, the sun's shadow went backwards.
In the same book; an iron axe head floats.
===================================
Well said. (at least for me anyway)
According to the first chapter of Genesis, the cosmos is a created cosmos. In
other words; the laws of physics (a.k.a. natural laws) that govern the
created cosmos are not absolute laws; viz: they were created too. In point
of fact, He who invented those laws is quite capable of adjusting them to
make matter and energy behave in ways contrary to what one might
logically expect; for example:
In the book of Daniel; three Jewish guys named Shadrach, Meshach, and
Abed-nego were sentenced to be executed by roasting to death in a pit that
was fired so extra hot that the guards who threw the guys into it were slain
by its radiant heat. What happened to the three guys? Nothing: they were
unscathed; and in point of fact, not even their clothing caught fire, nor even
smelled like it had been in a fire.
In the book of Exodus; Moses encountered a bush aflame while tending his
father-in-law's sheep. Though the bush was blazing, the fire had no effect on
it.
In the same book, water defied gravity.
In the book of 2nd Kings, the sun's shadow went backwards.
In the same book; an iron axe head floats.
===================================
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I'm going to deliberately re-word 1Cor 15:44. Watch for the changes.
"It is sown a solid body; it is raised a spirit body. There is a solid body, and
there is a spirit body."
I did it like that to bring out the point that the koiné Greek word for
"spiritual" is ambiguous; viz: it doesn't always indicate thin air. Below is a
list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to
things consisting of thin air.
spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)
So, with all that under our belts; I propose that we paraphrase 1Cor 15:44
to read as follows:
"It is sown a normal human body, it is raised up a superhuman body. There
is a natural human body, and there is a supernatural human body."
That works for me because "supernatural" implies a human body similar in
some respects to the man of steel popularly known at Comic Con as
Superman. The heroic figure from the planet Krypton isn't constructed of
thin air; but rather; of some sort of indestructible human tissue. It looks like
ordinary human tissue; but in his case, appearances can be deceiving.
I sincerely believe that the spiritual body spoken of at 1Cor 15:44 is in no
way composed of spirit. Of what material it is composed I don't know; but I
do know at least three things about it. One is that the material is totally
unknown to modern physics, and two; it's living tissue, and the third is that
it's impervious to death and putrefaction.
The spiritual body is a glorious body.
†. Matt 16:28-17:2 . .Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are
standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man
coming in His kingdom. And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and
James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by
themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like
the sun, and His garments became as white as light." (Matt 16:28-17:2)
A glorious body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods.
†. Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you
before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in
the kingdom of God.
A glorious body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages.
†. Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.
A glorious body is a heavenly body.
†. Php 3:20-21 . . Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a
savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him
to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that
they will be like his glorious body.
===========================================
I'm going to deliberately re-word 1Cor 15:44. Watch for the changes.
"It is sown a solid body; it is raised a spirit body. There is a solid body, and
there is a spirit body."
I did it like that to bring out the point that the koiné Greek word for
"spiritual" is ambiguous; viz: it doesn't always indicate thin air. Below is a
list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to
things consisting of thin air.
spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)
So, with all that under our belts; I propose that we paraphrase 1Cor 15:44
to read as follows:
"It is sown a normal human body, it is raised up a superhuman body. There
is a natural human body, and there is a supernatural human body."
That works for me because "supernatural" implies a human body similar in
some respects to the man of steel popularly known at Comic Con as
Superman. The heroic figure from the planet Krypton isn't constructed of
thin air; but rather; of some sort of indestructible human tissue. It looks like
ordinary human tissue; but in his case, appearances can be deceiving.
I sincerely believe that the spiritual body spoken of at 1Cor 15:44 is in no
way composed of spirit. Of what material it is composed I don't know; but I
do know at least three things about it. One is that the material is totally
unknown to modern physics, and two; it's living tissue, and the third is that
it's impervious to death and putrefaction.
The spiritual body is a glorious body.
†. Matt 16:28-17:2 . .Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are
standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man
coming in His kingdom. And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and
James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by
themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like
the sun, and His garments became as white as light." (Matt 16:28-17:2)
A glorious body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods.
†. Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you
before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in
the kingdom of God.
A glorious body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages.
†. Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.
A glorious body is a heavenly body.
†. Php 3:20-21 . . Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a
savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him
to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that
they will be like his glorious body.
===========================================
V
I propose we leave the word of God as is and not read things into that aren't there.
The phrase "spiritual body" is pneumatikoß soma (pneumatikos soma), and it refers directly to the fact there is a separate spiritual body. pneumatikoß relates to the human spirit, the governing entity over the rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ. We are not, nor do we become, "superhuman." We become a heavenly resident in a transfigured body, due to the fact that we as flesh cannot enter heaven. That's all there is to it.
The phrase "spiritual body" is pneumatikoß soma (pneumatikos soma), and it refers directly to the fact there is a separate spiritual body. pneumatikoß relates to the human spirit, the governing entity over the rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ. We are not, nor do we become, "superhuman." We become a heavenly resident in a transfigured body, due to the fact that we as flesh cannot enter heaven. That's all there is to it.
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Your theory contains some fatal flaws.
For one, the Greek word for "spiritual" is ambiguous. It does not always
indicate thin air. (See post #25)
For another, Christ looks forward to dining upon ordinary food in the
kingdom, and imbibing ordinary beverages. (See post #25)
For another, it is a mistake to assume that the flesh and blood of 1Cor 15:50
preclude the possibility of Christ existing in heaven with a solid body.
Paul's term "flesh and blood" refers to the natural human body that God
manufactured for Adam from the earth's elements in the book of Genesis.
The elements that God used in manufacturing Christ's glorious body are not
of the earth. The elements used to manufacture his glorious body are
currently unknown to science.
In point of fact, nobody knows how Christ's glorious body works. All we
know is that it is capable of dining upon ordinary foods and imbibing
ordinary beverages; and you are going to have to find some way to factor
that into your thinking because like you your own self said: "I propose we
leave the word of God as is"
========================================
Your theory contains some fatal flaws.
For one, the Greek word for "spiritual" is ambiguous. It does not always
indicate thin air. (See post #25)
For another, Christ looks forward to dining upon ordinary food in the
kingdom, and imbibing ordinary beverages. (See post #25)
For another, it is a mistake to assume that the flesh and blood of 1Cor 15:50
preclude the possibility of Christ existing in heaven with a solid body.
Paul's term "flesh and blood" refers to the natural human body that God
manufactured for Adam from the earth's elements in the book of Genesis.
The elements that God used in manufacturing Christ's glorious body are not
of the earth. The elements used to manufacture his glorious body are
currently unknown to science.
In point of fact, nobody knows how Christ's glorious body works. All we
know is that it is capable of dining upon ordinary foods and imbibing
ordinary beverages; and you are going to have to find some way to factor
that into your thinking because like you your own self said: "I propose we
leave the word of God as is"
========================================
Indeed. These are good examples the demonstrate the fact that all "natural laws" are subject to an unseen deminsion of reality we refer to as the spiritual world. If this sort of thing interests you, you might take a look at an old thread Triadic Reality (a discussion between oldhermit and Kenisis). It is a rather long read and not for the layman. I talk a great deal about the concept of reality and the nature of God as they are represented in scripture.
G
Yes, His body was raised. Empty tomb.
1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (Emphasis mine)
Hope - meaning we don't have what we will be or have in eternity.
Jesus was glorified in Matthew 18. In that glorified state, He was transfigured.
I believe Jesus' body was changed at His ascension. He returned to the Father and to His pre-incarnate form, being.
1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (Emphasis mine)
Hope - meaning we don't have what we will be or have in eternity.
Jesus was glorified in Matthew 18. In that glorified state, He was transfigured.
I believe Jesus' body was changed at His ascension. He returned to the Father and to His pre-incarnate form, being.
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G
Funny. And a good way to describe the sentence.
The word manufacture is industrial. It certainly does not fit well into the creation account in Genesis. Manufacture? People manufacture things. That requires time, limits, processes, and a host of other things that limit man. Whereas God is not limited by those same things.
The word manufacture is industrial. It certainly does not fit well into the creation account in Genesis. Manufacture? People manufacture things. That requires time, limits, processes, and a host of other things that limit man. Whereas God is not limited by those same things.
