Joel Osteen vs. Paul Washer

[leonardronaldo]

Well of course!!! everyone knows that well known biblical truth about going on the Oprah Winfrey show!!! Someone forgot to tell that to JO. Maybe someone ought to post the chapter and verse so we can all avoid this blatant sinful act!!??

Oprah many times stated there are many ways to heaven or God. Did Joel Osteen argue with that, at least as a pastor? Ah, of course not, he agrees with Oprah on that.

 

[leonardronaldo]

I'm not much on conspiracy theories since for every different theory there is another different person. The Bible and sound teachers (and there are many) God has gifted to the church., are reliable. Good commentaries and study Bibles. There are so many amazing ways to study the Bible. The HolySpirit as He teaches us individually in our own private studying and reading and praying., to be able to see which teachers are worthy of our support.

I think all of us would like to say we are in the God business. We are supposed to go about and do the Lord's business. I'm sad that people can't get passed the fact that God has blessed Ol Joel for his steadfastness in spreading the Gospel to the masses. There are many different types of teachers. Some teach the meaty stuff in the word, while others are evangelists and have opportunity to get on tv and reach millions that would not have been reached years ago. I think God chooses such men for such times and places.

Just because Joel O. doesn't preach deep theology when he gets interviewed is no reason for Christians to be mad at him. He surely is not going to have an opportunity to preach the whole council of God on news shows or programs that the unsaved have invited him on. If you are looking for fault, you can always find it. If you listen to how the man answers the questions keeping in mind that the unsaved people are wanting to catch him in some kind of condemnation of groups of people. You might even admire his willingness to get up in front of thousands of people and give out the gospel. Seems like he is battling the legalistic Christians more than anyone else.

Reminds me of Jesus and the Pharisees. We each have to seek God's leading in such matters but condemning a brother in Christ is a sad commentary on the Church.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. Did Joel Osteen rebuke people with false teachings? I don't think he can, most likely because he himself is a false teacher

 

[leonardronaldo]

Well, if Oprah is not saved, she is saying what unsaved people say., She doesn't know any better she needs Jesus. I'd commend her for being in church too! She is in a place where the name of Jesus is preached. Doesn't mean I'm a coward or ignorant or a false teacher. It means I welcome a sinner into my church. shhhhheeeeessssshhhhhh

Yes you should welcome all people to your church, since all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But the question is, what did you do to such sinners?
Did you point out their sins, their fallenhood and their needs of the Glory of God?

No wonder many sinners come to your church. Carnal people hates to be shown their sins and to be asked to flee from their sins.

 

[ladylynn]

Lol at this post. Did you tell that to your preacher, Joel Osteen. He is one of the most conformed-to-this-world preacher that I can imagine. Joel Osteen does not care about the will of God, he only cares about his own will (i.e. to have his best life now). A good quote from Pastor John MacArthur on 'your best life now':

"you will only have your best life now, if you are going to hell"

There really isn't much left I can say to you. Your mind is made up about someone you think you know personally. JO isn't my preacher, he is just another believer who is out there in the public eye giving out the good news of the Gospel. He has many enemies for that reason. It's just too bad so many of them are Christian. There comes a time you have to make up your own mind even when such big names like John MacGarther have such a huge influence.

There are millions of Christians on both sides of issues and in my opinion the ones who spend so much time on finding fault with other brothers and sisters in Christ are the ones to avoid. One day you will be misunderstood and those who were once so right in your eyes will be the very ones who will condemn you for not being as perfect as they are.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

No, it's actually biblical. Read Genesis 8:21 and Psalms 51:5.

Paul Washer does not preach same topic every week, but the core is always being preached. The gospel.

I don't live in the USA to know enough how he deals with his congregations, but I've been to Heartcry Netherlands in Holland once, where he attends there annually. At first I think the same like you did, where was the bluntness that I have been hearing on his videos?
Then again, I watch more and more of his videos. He preaches extensive variety of topics and I don't think every topic shall be preached with bluntness.

genesis 8:21 and psalm 51:5 only support the biblical doctrine of total depravity...they do not support washer's newly invented doctrine of hypothetical sin...

when washer preaches 'lordship salvation'...it is a distorted gospel being preached...basically just a calvinistic version of the same theology of works that tormented martin luther before he discovered the true gospel...

i agree that not every topic needs to be addressed with bluntness...but the issue of washer's followers idolizing him -does- need to be treated with bluntness and so far washer has neglected that responsibility...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

False, he mentions all men, which includes himself and his congregations, as depraved sinners.

Please point out the error rather than accusing.

washer has a number of preferred targets that he tends to single out for condemnation...ones that his followers coincidentally do not identify with...

so it is fully accurate to say that most of the time washer's followers are hearing him condemn -other- people...and that appeals to the worldly impulses of comparison and self righteousness...

 

[leonardronaldo]

There really isn't much left I can say to you. Your mind is made up about someone you think you know personally. JO isn't my preacher, he is just another believer who is out there in the public eye giving out the good news of the Gospel. He has many enemies for that reason. It's just too bad so many of them are Christian. There comes a time you have to make up your own mind even when such big names like John MacGarther have such a huge influence.

There are millions of Christians on both sides of issues and in my opinion the ones who spend so much time on finding fault with other brothers and sisters in Christ are the ones to avoid. One day you will be misunderstood and those who were once so right in your eyes will be the very ones who will condemn you for not being as perfect as they are.

That's good to me, at least if someone can show me my fault and let me know what the bible says about that, praise God. I am still given time to repent and believe. Who cares about numbers, there are 1.6 billion muslims now in the world, does that make them right?

 

[leonardronaldo]

genesis 8:21 and psalm 51:5 only support the biblical doctrine of total depravity...they do not support washer's newly invented doctrine of hypothetical sin...

when washer preaches 'lordship salvation'...it is a distorted gospel being preached...basically just a calvinistic version of the same theology of works that tormented martin luther before he discovered the true gospel...

i agree that not every topic needs to be addressed with bluntness...but the issue of washer's followers idolizing him -does- need to be treated with bluntness and so far washer has neglected that responsibility...

What do you mean by hypothetical sin? Please let me know your definition on that.

Total depravity shall mean wholly depraved (without the covering grace of God). Another sample stated by Paul Washer is that 'outside the covering grace of God, any people can make hitler look like 'a choir boy'. That's more like total, isn't it?

If you don't agree with lordship salvation, calvinists, lutheran, that's okay. Paul Washer does not bring any banner to his preaching, in fact, he stated that when in Peru he was helped by a Nazarene woman, and he refers her to be a believer. He doesn't care about what banner you are bringing, but whether someone has shown biblical life of a Christian.

Issue of idolizing, please view the video in the link below:

https://youtu.be/GEgHu48SuZg

 

[leonardronaldo]

washer has a number of preferred targets that he tends to single out for condemnation...ones that his followers coincidentally do not identify with...

so it is fully accurate to say that most of the time washer's followers are hearing him condemn -other- people...and that appeals to the worldly impulses of comparison and self righteousness...

And who are such preferred targets?

Christians are called to test the spirit, reprove, rebuke and exhort false teachings. Does that sound 'wordly' to you?
How can someone be self righteous when the basis of its judgment is the Word of God (John 7:24, Hebrews 4:12)?

 

[ember]

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. Did Joel Osteen rebuke people with false teachings? I don't think he can, most likely because he himself is a false teacher

maybe we should rebuke you

you are free to choose whoever you would like to sit at the feet of and absorb all you can, but you are not free to judge or condemn those in Christ

I'm not a fan of either men you mentionned in your op...but I sure can tell which one you listen too!!

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1

20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. II Corinthians

my best advice to any and all, is to reject condemnation and study your salvation

do not continue to be blown about by every wind of doctrine and false teaching

the only hope we have is IN Christ....condemnation if you are in Christ is of the devil

 

[ladylynn]

maybe we should rebuke you

you are free to choose whoever you would like to sit at the feet of and absorb all you can, but you are not free to judge or condemn those in Christ

I'm not a fan of either men you mentionned in your op...but I sure can tell which one you listen too!!

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1

20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. II Corinthians

my best advice to any and all, is to reject condemnation and study your salvation

do not continue to be blown about by every wind of doctrine and false teaching

the only hope we have is IN Christ....condemnation if you are in Christ is of the devil

Excellent post ember., Big Amen to the verses you posted, how great is it that we HAVE these promises!! Because of Jesus. He has done this for us IN Christ., anointed us and set His seal of OWNERSHIP on us and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit,a guarantee!
Because of Jesus we have these irrevocable promises based on grace and truth in Jesus. We are no longer condemned with the world because of Jesus. And your wise advice to reject any condemnation for it all comes from the devil. To study about Jesus and our salvation and what they mean so we will not be deceived by false teaching. Well worth the read!! Blessings to you sister.



There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1

20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. II Corinthians

my best advice to any and all, is to reject condemnation and study your salvation

do not continue to be blown about by every wind of doctrine and false teaching

the only hope we have is IN Christ....condemnation if you are in Christ is of the devil

 

[ember]

Thanks Lynn! Along with the postive, I think it is important to reject the condemnation...we are forgiven...not to go on sinning, of course not! but to live in Christ and be His hands and feet on earth

SO much better than judging and condemning...we know there is plenty wrong...but I see more and more that praising God for what is right is a much better path to walk on

 

[leonardronaldo]

maybe we should rebuke you

you are free to choose whoever you would like to sit at the feet of and absorb all you can, but you are not free to judge or condemn those in Christ

I'm not a fan of either men you mentionned in your op...but I sure can tell which one you listen too!!

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1

20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. II Corinthians

my best advice to any and all, is to reject condemnation and study your salvation

do not continue to be blown about by every wind of doctrine and false teaching

the only hope we have is IN Christ....condemnation if you are in Christ is of the devil

Please do rebuke me. Rebuking biblically is not the same with condemning. Is there anywhere in the bible which prohibits anyone to rebuke false teachings? Paul, on the other hand, asked believers to be ready 'in season and out of season to reproof, rebuke, exhorts'. Was Paul condemning? Only God can condemn people to hell, the same as only Him can saves people from such condemnation. So why did Paul ask Christians to 'reproof, rebuke and exhort'? You can read the reason completely in 2 Timothy 3.

No condemnation in Christ, that is true. The questions then need to be asked: Is Joel Osteen in Christ Jesus? Does he walk after the flesh or after the Spirit? How do we even get to determine the answer to those questions? No other way around other than testing the spirit of his teachings, comparing it to the biblical teachings.

My best advice to any and all is to learn the bible in its fullness, rather than cherry-picking verses that you like.

 

[ladylynn]

Please do rebuke me. Rebuking biblically is not the same with condemning. Is there anywhere in the bible which prohibits anyone to rebuke false teachings? Paul, on the other hand, asked believers to be ready 'in season and out of season to reproof, rebuke, exhorts'. Was Paul condemning? Only God can condemn people to hell, the same as only Him can saves people from such condemnation. So why did Paul ask Christians to 'reproof, rebuke and exhort'? You can read the reason completely in 2 Timothy 3.

No condemnation in Christ, that is true. The questions then need to be asked: Is Joel Osteen in Christ Jesus? Does he walk after the flesh or after the Spirit? How do we even get to determine the answer to those questions? No other way around other than testing the spirit of his teachings, comparing it to the biblical teachings.

My best advice to any and all is to learn the bible in its fullness, rather than cherry-picking verses that you like.

The thing about rebuking is we have to make sure we don't have giant log beams in our own eyes. If someone is full of condemnation for others it's next to impossible to hear them talk about exhortation and reproving. They don't know how to run their own lives in the love of Jesus, how can they tell someone else how?

 

[ember]

Please do rebuke me. Rebuking biblically is not the same with condemning. Is there anywhere in the bible which prohibits anyone to rebuke false teachings? Paul, on the other hand, asked believers to be ready 'in season and out of season to reproof, rebuke, exhorts'. Was Paul condemning? Only God can condemn people to hell, the same as only Him can saves people from such condemnation. So why did Paul ask Christians to 'reproof, rebuke and exhort'? You can read the reason completely in 2 Timothy 3.

No condemnation in Christ, that is true. The questions then need to be asked: Is Joel Osteen in Christ Jesus? Does he walk after the flesh or after the Spirit? How do we even get to determine the answer to those questions? No other way around other than testing the spirit of his teachings, comparing it to the biblical teachings.

My best advice to any and all is to learn the bible in its fullness, rather than cherry-picking verses that you like.

I was rebuking you? didn't know...usually when I rebuke, I'm aware of it...but I tend not to do that on the forums cause I wish to continue posting...I don't know you well enough to rebuke you...just say you didn't like my response cause I refuse to go down under false pretences

Regarding rebuking false teachings, seems to me people love to grab a hold of that rail car and ride the train into town

That's a problem for me, because I have been rebuked by the Lord Himself...but He never leaves me cold and shut outside the door while having a hireling whop me over the noggin with a hard bound copy of the law

Can you prove Joel is not saved? Why on earth are you whopping on a man that you have no authority to judge? Sure, his sermons are like getting your big toe wet, but I betcha there are people genuinely saved in his church. You know why?

Cause God moves independantly upon people...we don't draw them...He draws by His Spirit

So, yuh know, if you are trying to state we have a choice between Gospel Light and wedged in the book of the law and in my coffin with righteous nails holding it shut, yuh know, I'm gonna beg and plead with God for the truth cause neither ones seems like the best option for my hungry heart

My heart is hungry because the truth is harder and harder to find

My best advice to any and all is to learn the bible in its fullness, rather than cherry-picking verses that you like.

Let me be truthful. When I read the above? I get angry. In fact, I'm squinting.

Why? because you are making a false assumption. I have the entire Word of God under my belt and I am always learning

I suggest you look up the topic of grace...we need that more than anything else and it is grace that makes someone crawl on their knees for forgiveness...pounding on the law, focusing on sin and hell-speak does the opposite because the law CREATES a desire to sin

Wish folks would get that right

 

[leonardronaldo]

The thing about rebuking is we have to make sure we don't have giant log beams in our own eyes. If someone is full of condemnation for others it's next to impossible to hear them talk about exhortation and reproving. They don't know how to run their own lives in the love of Jesus, how can they tell someone else how?

I was discussing about false teaching. Of course if you are rebuking someone of false teaching, you shall not preach similar teaching, that's called hypocrite. However, if you think that a man shall be sinless to do any rebuke, then Paul's message was in vain and in contradictory to his other teachings.

Please stop talking about love of God and love of Jesus if you only see one side of the coin. Let me ask you something, when you read in the bible 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.." what did come into your mind? How did God show His love to Jacob?

 

[leonardronaldo]

I was rebuking you? didn't know...usually when I rebuke, I'm aware of it...but I tend not to do that on the forums cause I wish to continue posting...I don't know you well enough to rebuke you...just say you didn't like my response cause I refuse to go down under false pretences

Regarding rebuking false teachings, seems to me people love to grab a hold of that rail car and ride the train into town

That's a problem for me, because I have been rebuked by the Lord Himself...but He never leaves me cold and shut outside the door while having a hireling whop me over the noggin with a hard bound copy of the law

Can you prove Joel is not saved? Why on earth are you whopping on a man that you have no authority to judge? Sure, his sermons are like getting your big toe wet, but I betcha there are people genuinely saved in his church. You know why?

Cause God moves independantly upon people...we don't draw them...He draws by His Spirit

So, yuh know, if you are trying to state we have a choice between Gospel Light and wedged in the book of the law and in my coffin with righteous nails holding it shut, yuh know, I'm gonna beg and plead with God for the truth cause neither ones seems like the best option for my hungry heart

My heart is hungry because the truth is harder and harder to find



Let me be truthful. When I read the above? I get angry. In fact, I'm squinting.

Why? because you are making a false assumption. I have the entire Word of God under my belt and I am always learning

I suggest you look up the topic of grace...we need that more than anything else and it is grace that makes someone crawl on their knees for forgiveness...pounding on the law, focusing on sin and hell-speak does the opposite because the law CREATES a desire to sin

Wish folks would get that right

1. You said in your previous post the following: 'maybe we should rebuke you'. Then there was my response, please do rebuke me. Was that a false pretence?

2. Please share what was the Lord's rebuke to you, that should be a great testimony, isn't it?

3. Can you prove Joel is saved? I don't have the authority to judge, but the Word of God does. True, there is a big chance that there are little groups of people in his church genuinely saved in his church. But those people are genuinely saved in spite of Joel, not because of him. And Joel will be liable for that in the judgment seat of Christ, since he caters to the will of the majority of his congregations, rather than caters to the will of God.

4. How can you claim to have the entire Word of God but only post one side of the gospel? Are you only open to giving advice, but not receiving one? I know how amazing the grace of God is. But people need the complete teaching of the gospel.

I hope the Holy Spirit will draw you you to repent to God for saying HIS law creates a desire to sin. That's blasphemy and shows you don't understand the full counsel of the Grace of God. He creates the law BECAUSE all men HAVE FALLEN into sin, and HE is a just God.

 

[Lancelot]

Here's the kind of stuff people are saying about Joel Osteen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_CRWZNUkrk

And here's the rebuttal, showing how people are misrepresenting Joel Osteen.

[video=youtube;eFFujHyUfHE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFFujHyUfHE[/video]

 

[ladylynn]

Here's the kind of stuff people are saying about Joel Osteen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_CRWZNUkrk

And here's the rebuttal, showing how people are misrepresenting Joel Osteen.

[video=youtube;eFFujHyUfHE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFFujHyUfHE[/video]

Excellent video and one everyone here on CC who regularly mis quotes and mis represents Joel O. and Word of Faith should listen to. I love hearing the truth set right. This video is done extremely well and easy to listen too. Thanks very much Lancelot !! Blessings to you brother.

 

[Lancelot]

Excellent video and one everyone here on CC who regularly mis quotes and mis represents Joel O. and Word of Faith should listen to. I love hearing the truth set right. This video is done extremely well and easy to listen too. Thanks very much Lancelot !! Blessings to you brother.

Thanks, LL. You can bless me by subscribing to my YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7d_jPXSFkeYUV2BFnkMsMA