Joyce Meyer's $23,000 Toilet

[ladylynn]

Well, I'm just thankful none of you know where I live and what my house looks like and how much money I make and what kind of food I eat and where I get my clothes and what I feed my dog and where I work and who my friends are and what shampoo I use and if my hair is long or short and if I dye my hair or not and if I braid my hair or not and if I wear makeup or not and if I bought a cd or dvd this month or not and if I listen to hymns or contemporary music and if I wear any jewelry and if my car is brand new or not......etc...etc....etc...................................

 

[sydlit]

These are some cool outhouses.

View attachment 139389

Very cool, although there should be a crescent moon on the door of each one to make it official. I'm wondering what the trap-door is on the red one (lower right).
And the blue port-o-potty (lower center) with the frame built around it is kinda.....tacky. lol. Still cant believe my relatives grew up using one of these. And a coal stove ..... for cooking AND heating. And an outdoor pump for water. All fourteen of them in one house. And all 12 kids were born IN the house. Gee, if they Only had more Word of 'Faith' preachers in the coal mines, maybe they could have named and claimed a DOUBLE outhouse. (the original his and hers bathrooms) lol. NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE HERE! If God gives you gifts, praise the Lord! Just don't make other ppl feel guilty or tell them they don't have enough 'Faith' if they don't get a miracle healing. Or a miracle bankroll. Or a miracle double-outhouse!

 

[jaybird88]

Well, I'm just thankful none of you know where I live and what my house looks like and how much money I make and what kind of food I eat and where I get my clothes and what I feed my dog and where I work and who my friends are and what shampoo I use and if my hair is long or short and if I dye my hair or not and if I braid my hair or not and if I wear makeup or not and if I bought a cd or dvd this month or not and if I listen to hymns or contemporary music and if I wear any jewelry and if my car is brand new or not......etc...etc....etc...................................

well if you accumulated all those things by selling the Lords teachings for the highest profits possible then what we think might be the least of your problems

 

[ladylynn]

well if you accumulated all those things by selling the Lords teachings for the highest profits possible then what we think might be the least of your problems

Well you see jaybird88, in actuality, you will never know for sure anymore than you know anything for sure about Joyce Meyer or anyone else. Even our United states court system says your innocent until proven guilty.... sorry that our brethren don't even go that far.

 

[PeterJens]

It is obvious from this thread there are those who believe in the wealth theology.
It matters not a jot to them it is a lie and corruption of the gospel. It plays on greed and reinforces the message your wealth defines who you are.

On this basis Jesus would never have come to Mary and Joseph, lived in Nazareth and walked around with no wealth as a teacher in the hills. Did he get a parade of helpers, the best technology, singers, show on earth and go to the biggest places he could hire to preach and spread the message.

No he went one to one, spreading relationships and love, healing those who he found in need. When money was needed it was found, food, resources. It was peoples hearts he wanted to change and to show He cared, one to one.

And what is Joyces message. Your dreams are God given, reach out and claim them. Is there are stumbling block or barrier to this message, any insult or rejection, any pain or suffering, any change required? No. Only upside. Heaven eternal and riches today, a win win story, and the cost, just come and listen. Learn more, just buy the book, dvd and your life is set to go for the sky. If this was true, what on earth are we doing here suffering. Just say the words and believe and you are healed, no illnesses and wealth beyond you wildest dreams.

How is it people have been ship wrecked following this, lost everything, lives fallen apart. Oh, not enough faith. So there actually is risk involved but not for the preacher, because if enough people believe they keep the money flowing in. For them there is no downside, which is why the addiction cannot be stopped. To speak the truth would be to become bankrupt, the money would dry up and all the people who are paid to keep it rolling would have no more jobs. So please for their sakes keep the ship afloat, they really deserve all the support they can get.

 

[p_rehbein]

i know she is making millions from being a preacher. i know her salary is paid by the church. i know she was quoted many times saying wealth is a key element in knowing you are on the right path to the Lord. and i am pretty sure Jesus never thought on the importance of accumulating wealth.

I don't have a dog in the hunt concerning Meyers..........but I would like to see a link to the "quotes" you mention above.

 

[Sirk]

It is obvious from this thread there are those who believe in the wealth theology.
It matters not a jot to them it is a lie and corruption of the gospel. It plays on greed and reinforces the message your wealth defines who you are.

On this basis Jesus would never have come to Mary and Joseph, lived in Nazareth and walked around with no wealth as a teacher in the hills. Did he get a parade of helpers, the best technology, singers, show on earth and go to the biggest places he could hire to preach and spread the message.

No he went one to one, spreading relationships and love, healing those who he found in need. When money was needed it was found, food, resources. It was peoples hearts he wanted to change and to show He cared, one to one.

And what is Joyces message. Your dreams are God given, reach out and claim them. Is there are stumbling block or barrier to this message, any insult or rejection, any pain or suffering, any change required? No. Only upside. Heaven eternal and riches today, a win win story, and the cost, just come and listen. Learn more, just buy the book, dvd and your life is set to go for the sky. If this was true, what on earth are we doing here suffering. Just say the words and believe and you are healed, no illnesses and wealth beyond you wildest dreams.

How is it people have been ship wrecked following this, lost everything, lives fallen apart. Oh, not enough faith. So there actually is risk involved but not for the preacher, because if enough people believe they keep the money flowing in. For them there is no downside, which is why the addiction cannot be stopped. To speak the truth would be to become bankrupt, the money would dry up and all the people who are paid to keep it rolling would have no more jobs. So please for their sakes keep the ship afloat, they really deserve all the support they can get.

Slaves and masters are co-conspirators in ignorance. What I mean by that is that the people who would give Joyce their life savings over some feel good message are as ignorant as Joyce is (if in fact she does) in preaching a prosperity gospel.

 

[PoetMary]

The Bible has said the same thing for all the years it's been with us and Christians have believed and witnessed it. God is not subject to the times in history. His Word is true for all time for all believers. Service to God is a natural reaction to the love of God in Christ. We love Him because He first loved us. So service is something we have a deep desire to do.

I don't intellectualize God anymore PoetMary. I don't look down the road in the history books and dwell on how other people think and thought about life and reacted to it. Their sociological attitudes vs other people's sociological attitudes and beliefs. While I'm not ignorant of history, I do not run my life according people in any age in time.

I do not dwell on how people died horrible miserable tortured deaths like when I would dwell on and re-read 'Foxes Book of Martyr's' learning all about how sinful men killed others and sucked all hope of God and goodness from their lives. Imagining the pain and agony of screaming human's suffering in the depths of despair., How justice was lost to them and doom was the last thing they could think about.

That not only happened through all the generations it's still happening now. My focus is and MUST be (just like YOURS must be) just like the hopeful faithfilled believers in the past who went through tribulations ... The Bible instructs us ALL on how our thoughts are to be and what they should be focusing on. The saints in times past also had Philippians 4 just like I do when the Bible was available to believers.,and the promises were just as good and the directions were just as clear;

Philippians 4:8 ....For the rest brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things (fix your MINDS on them)

The promises are the same as they have always been for us new covenant saints. We are told how to think and what to put weight on. Not on the things unsaved people are left alone to think on since they don't have Jesus. We have Him and the promises He died to secure for us. We have the HolySpirit indwelling us. We have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness.

So don't be angry if I'm joyful, don't judge me for not focusing on the ugly things of this world. I would encourage you to also read Philippians 4., read the whole chapter. Be encouraged and joyful that Jesus has not left us alone to go this life.

"The world you live in is simply not the world most of us mortals inhabit." Well then PeterJens, get with the program!! You can take hold of Philippians 4:8 just as good as I can. So can you PoetMary.

We each have a choice on how we want to live this Christian life. If you want to go to Africa PoetMary more power to you if that is where God is directing you. But for right now God is sending me to work each day to witness to people here in NY. I firmly believe we are to grow and minister where we are planted until God sends us somewhere else.

You missed the point because you made it about you personally. My response was about prosperity theology. It wasn't about how you live out your life. The remarks about Africa, etc., are unnecessary. I never implied that everyone must be a missionary. I never even implied that I was a missionary.

Here's a summary of what I said:

Prosperity theology and the worship of material goods is a manifestation of modern Western culture.

People involved with this movement refuse to acknowledge that they are living out acculturation.

Historically, the church has NEVER interpreted the "prosperity verses" the way they are now being interpreted.

I align myself with the historic view of scripture.

The idea that people who criticize this theology are somehow doctrinally lacking is a false presumption. The characterization that we are ignorant of God's promises, or that we don't believe in God's promises, or that our faith is too weak to lean into God's promises is simply false.

We read the same verses. We get that we serve a big God. We don't presume that the bigness of God means that we deserve a Cadillac and a private jet. INSTEAD, we presume that the big promises of God are about the bigness of his love for all of creation. That the bigness of God means that we can fearlessly go into the world and live out the gospel. This, in fact, is how these verses have ALWAYS been read by the church.

The fact that we aren't bowing to some new, culturally influenced, and self-aggrandizing view of scripture doesn't mean we lack belief, we lack understanding, or that we're inferior Christians.

 

[shotgunner]

You missed the point because you made it about you personally. My response was about prosperity theology. It wasn't about how you live out your life. The remarks about Africa, etc., are unnecessary. I never implied that everyone must be a missionary. I never even implied that I was a missionary.



Here's a summary of what I said:

Prosperity theology and the worship of material goods is a manifestation of modern Western culture.

People involved with this movement refuse to acknowledge that they are living out acculturation.

Historically, the church has NEVER interpreted the "prosperity verses" the way they are now being interpreted.

I align myself with the historic view of scripture.

The idea that people who criticize this theology are somehow doctrinally lacking is a false presumption. The characterization that we are ignorant of God's promises, or that we don't believe in God's promises, or that our faith is too weak to lean into God's promises is simply false.

We read the same verses. We get that we serve a big God. We don't presume that the bigness of God means that we deserve a Cadillac and a private jet. INSTEAD, we presume that the big promises of God are about the bigness of his love for all of creation. That the bigness of God means that we can fearlessly go into the world and live out the gospel. This, in fact, is how these verses have ALWAYS been read by the church.

The fact that we aren't bowing to some new, culturally influenced, and self-aggrandizing view of scripture doesn't mean we lack belief, we lack understanding, or that we're inferior Christians.

So if I preach that Deut. 28 is actually true does that make me an evil prosperity teacher?

Deuteronomy 28:1-13King James Version (KJV)
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord; and they shall be afraid of thee.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

 

[Lancelot]

History isn't the determining factor when it comes to a doctrine's legitimacy. In the words of the great bible scholar Charles Ryrie "... the ultimate test of the truth of any doctrine is whether it is in accord with biblical revelation. The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and, likewise, if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false. "

God told Abraham that he would be blessed and that he would be a blessing. (Gen. 12:2) As shotgunner just showed us Israel had a prosperity covenant with Jehovah. Like it or not, it's there. Hebrews 8:6 tells us that we have a better covenant based on better promises. If you don't want to believe it then fine, but don't say it's not in there because it is.

 

[PoetMary]

So if I preach that Deut. 28 is actually true does that make me an evil prosperity teacher?

Deuteronomy 28:1-13King James Version (KJV)
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord; and they shall be afraid of thee.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

Okay...let me once again try to be clear.

This wasn't an criticism of any particular person. It was a comment about the theological concept. I never called anyone evil. I never even called the DOCTRINE evil. I simply commented that it was NEW and a manifestation of acculturation.

So, with that in mind, let's look at Deuteronomy 28.

ONE of the differences between (some) modern interpretation of scriptures and classical interpretations has to do with the emphasis on the INDIVIDUAL over the COMMUNITY. Clearly, this passage is about THE COMMUNITY. It's about ISRAEL, the chosen PEOPLE, and not a particular individual.

Thus, when I read this, I don't see a promise from God to me as an individual. I see a promise from God to the Israelites and (by extension into the NT) to the Church (His Body and Bride).

Notice that God promises are to his HOLY PEOPLE.

So, I would conclude that it could be a possible mis-read to personalize these verses and presume that God is promising to me personally that all people are going to fear ME (as an individual) because I belong to the Lord, or that I am destined to be "plenteous in goods" and "in the fruit of thy body" (which I'm not, btw, because I've never borne any children).

However, if I read these verses in the context of Israel and the Church they totally work 100% and make sense. I need not PERSONALLY bear many children for this to be fulfilled. God has blessed his Church with many children to fulfill this verse.

So, when you present a black and white scenario with this verse is either TRUE or NOT TRUE, and TRUE means that it's preaching prosperity for every individual, then my conclusion is that the reading would be false, not the verse. The verse is always true, but it's not specifically true in every way for every individual.

 

[PoetMary]

History isn't the determining factor when it comes to a doctrine's legitimacy. In the words of the great bible scholar Charles Ryrie "... the ultimate test of the truth of any doctrine is whether it is in accord with biblical revelation. The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and, likewise, if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false. "

God told Abraham that he would be blessed and that he would be a blessing. (Gen. 12:2) As shotgunner just showed us Israel had a prosperity covenant with Jehovah. Like it or not, it's there. Hebrews 8:6 tells us that we have a better covenant based on better promises. If you don't want to believe it then fine, but don't say it's not in there because it is.

I never claimed that history was the SOLE determiner. I actually made TWO claims:

1. The prosperity doctrine has been influenced by modern culture, AND
2. Christians throughout history have not seen interpreted the bible in that manner.

It is the COMBINATION (and the obvious manifestations) of this doctrine that make it questionable

Also, I never made any claims about particulars "not being present" in the scripture. The opposite, in fact. I alluded to the idea that historically the church has read THE SAME VERSES and come to different conclusions.

Also, what's up with the snide personal remarks? Can people not address a TOPIC? You need not imply that I somehow don't want to believe scripture because my view of it is different than yours.

 

[Gr8grace]

Slaves and masters are co-conspirators in ignorance. What I mean by that is that the people who would give Joyce their life savings over some feel good message are as ignorant as Joyce is (if in fact she does) in preaching a prosperity gospel.

So very true. I see the humor of God in it. If that is where your heart is.......here ya go.

 

[PeterJens]

"if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false. "

There is a rather big problem here. Who is the author of behaviour, conviction of sin and the teachings of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit and the Apostles. Now all major theological and spiritual issues were dealt with here.
The body of Christ, the church is the witness of this gospel on earth.

If you are suddenly discovering truths hidden, they can only build on what has gone before not take a new avenue or else rather than being a renew reality it is probably heresy.

As the issue in question is a new view of blessing which is 100% linked to the technological revolution, science discoveries and medicine revolution, then this is completely of the flesh and the world and nothing to do with the Lord.

It would actually be laughable until such wealth and political structural changes because now ordinary people can gain real wealth and opportunity that simply did not happen in the passed. So this is all absurd and just a perversion of what is going on and exploitation of people who are not correctly ascribing the source of the blessing and its reason. If anything this excessive explosion of wealth linked to giving people would lead to more community action and focused use of wealth to the benefit of the many, but in fact it is being focused on self and self justification of self indulgence and greed.

 

[shotgunner]

Okay...let me once again try to be clear.

This wasn't an criticism of any particular person. It was a comment about the theological concept. I never called anyone evil. I never even called the DOCTRINE evil. I simply commented that it was NEW and a manifestation of acculturation.

So, with that in mind, let's look at Deuteronomy 28.

ONE of the differences between (some) modern interpretation of scriptures and classical interpretations has to do with the emphasis on the INDIVIDUAL over the COMMUNITY. Clearly, this passage is about THE COMMUNITY. It's about ISRAEL, the chosen PEOPLE, and not a particular individual.

Thus, when I read this, I don't see a promise from God to me as an individual. I see a promise from God to the Israelites and (by extension into the NT) to the Church (His Body and Bride).

Notice that God promises are to his HOLY PEOPLE.

So, I would conclude that it could be a possible mis-read to personalize these verses and presume that God is promising to me personally that all people are going to fear ME (as an individual) because I belong to the Lord, or that I am destined to be "plenteous in goods" and "in the fruit of thy body" (which I'm not, btw, because I've never borne any children).

However, if I read these verses in the context of Israel and the Church they totally work 100% and make sense. I need not PERSONALLY bear many children for this to be fulfilled. God has blessed his Church with many children to fulfill this verse.

So, when you present a black and white scenario with this verse is either TRUE or NOT TRUE, and TRUE means that it's preaching prosperity for every individual, then my conclusion is that the reading would be false, not the verse. The verse is always true, but it's not specifically true in every way for every individual.

Then I suppose we will just have to disagree. God made prosperity promises to Abraham as an individual and then to his descendants. The promise is unto all who are in Christ but that body is made up of individuals. The problem that I see with your thinking is that being for a nation or a people as a whole, is that if you are not in faith ,it will never be for you. Are you not part of that whole, and as such doesn't that promise belong to you just as much as anyone? The scripture is clear that God is no respecter of persons, so will God not do the same for all who believe?

Just because you never had children does not mean that the promise is not for you. It just means that you never took advantage of the promise. Just as our constitution and bill of rights is a promise for all people, it is also the promise to any individual. Does it make the promise void if someone is unjustly denied their rights? The answer is no, every individual must be aware of and stand up for their rights. Just so people must be aware of and have faith in the promises of God lest Satan convince you, they are not for you.

 

[PoetMary]

Then I suppose we will just have to disagree. God made prosperity promises to Abraham as an individual and then to his descendants. The promise is unto all who are in Christ but that body is made up of individuals. The problem that I see with your thinking is that being for a nation or a people as a whole, is that if you are not in faith ,it will never be for you. Are you not part of that whole, and as such doesn't that promise belong to you just as much as anyone? The scripture is clear that God is no respecter of persons, so will God not do the same for all who believe?

Just because you never had children does not mean that the promise is not for you. It just means that you never took advantage of the promise. Just as our constitution and bill of rights is a promise for all people, it is also the promise to any individual. Does it make the promise void if someone is unjustly denied their rights? The answer is no, every individual must be aware of and stand up for their rights. Just so people must be aware of and have faith in the promises of God lest Satan convince you, they are not for you.

Seriously...why must people engage in personal insults? And why are you so dedicated to your doctrinal beliefs that you will engage in significant unloving behavior just to shore up your ideas?

Considering that you know nothing about me as a person, you are in no position to claim that I "never took advantage" of a promise given by God. It is arrogant and offensive.

Perhaps you are new to the world or you don't understand how to speak to women, but issues of fertility and childbearing can be EXTREMELY PAINFUL. Particularly if a woman has wanted children but has not had them. The very idea that you would stomp around in your doctrine boots and imply that I have no children because I've deliberately denied God's promises in my life merely magnifies the pain I already experience as a woman who has no children.

Let me make the mathematics of it clear. I have always wanted children...lots of them. I have none. This is a very painful reality of my life. You know nothing of me or my life but you conclude that I lack children because my beliefs are faulty. You are telling me that had I believed correctly I would have children.

And I guess if other people just believed rightly then they'd never get cancer, or they'd never be in car accidents, or they wouldn't age, or their feelings would never be hurt, or they would never divorce, or they would never die.

I sincerely hope that Christians are kinder to you regarding your personal pain than you have been to me.

 

[shotgunner]

Seriously...why must people engage in personal insults? And why are you so dedicated to your doctrinal beliefs that you will engage in significant unloving behavior just to shore up your ideas?

Considering that you know nothing about me as a person, you are in no position to claim that I "never took advantage" of a promise given by God. It is arrogant and offensive.

Perhaps you are new to the world or you don't understand how to speak to women, but issues of fertility and childbearing can be EXTREMELY PAINFUL. Particularly if a woman has wanted children but has not had them. The very idea that you would stomp around in your doctrine boots and imply that I have no children because I've deliberately denied God's promises in my life merely magnifies the pain I already experience as a woman who has no children.

Let me make the mathematics of it clear. I have always wanted children...lots of them. I have none. This is a very painful reality of my life. You know nothing of me or my life but you conclude that I lack children because my beliefs are faulty. You are telling me that had I believed correctly I would have children.

And I guess if other people just believed rightly then they'd never get cancer, or they'd never be in car accidents, or they wouldn't age, or their feelings would never be hurt, or they would never divorce, or they would never die.

I sincerely hope that Christians are kinder to you regarding your personal pain than you have been to me.

Mary, I apologize, I had no idea you even wanted children. I did not mean to sound callous. I do believe that God could heal or fix whatever the issue was that prevented you from having children, but it was not at all my intention to make light of it or speak harshly. My thought was simply that you had chosen not to have children. Maybe you said differently and I just didn't catch it. Anyway it was not my intention to make you feel badly.

 

[shotgunner]

Honestly Mary, I had no intention of hurting your feelings and had I known you did desire children I would have tried to encourage your faith and not just callously said that you didn't take advantage of the promise.

This situation puts me in a precarious situation though because I do believe that faith is necessary on your part to take advantage of the promise. I would not simply say that you can't receive because of a lack of faith, but a lack of faith will definitely keep you from receiving.

It just illustrates why right believing is so important. I honestly have a lot of compassion for your situation. I would encourage you to believe that the promise of God is for you and not just for the nation. I don't see it as too late even now for you to believe God for what is impossible in the natural. It cannot happen though if you won't believe that the promise is for you.

I do hope that you see this in the way I mean it, not as a rebuke, but as an encouragement. If not then I'm sorry you feel that way. but I can only believe that God's word is true and try my best to encourage others to believe also.

 

[Lancelot]

I never claimed that history was the SOLE determiner. I actually made TWO claims:

1. The prosperity doctrine has been influenced by modern culture, AND
2. Christians throughout history have not seen interpreted the bible in that manner.

It is the COMBINATION (and the obvious manifestations) of this doctrine that make it questionable

Also, I never made any claims about particulars "not being present" in the scripture. The opposite, in fact. I alluded to the idea that historically the church has read THE SAME VERSES and come to different conclusions.

Also, what's up with the snide personal remarks? Can people not address a TOPIC? You need not imply that I somehow don't want to believe scripture because my view of it is different than yours.

What snide personal remarks? I thought I was addressing the topic. Sorry if it didn't come across that way. So many opponents of the WoF act like there's nothing in the Bible about prosperity and then they accuse us of twisting the scriptures. Anyway, I agree with you about modern culture having an influence, and it infuriates me to see televangelists taking what I believe and making a mockery of it through hype and excessive teaching. Still, to have a balanced view both sides have to be taken into consideration. As for the second point, the church didn't teach a pre-trib rapture or dispensationalism either until the 19th century, which is what Ryrie was addressing.

 

[PoetMary]

Honestly Mary, I had no intention of hurting your feelings and had I known you did desire children I would have tried to encourage your faith and not just callously said that you didn't take advantage of the promise.

This situation puts me in a precarious situation though because I do believe that faith is necessary on your part to take advantage of the promise. I would not simply say that you can't receive because of a lack of faith, but a lack of faith will definitely keep you from receiving.

It just illustrates why right believing is so important. I honestly have a lot of compassion for your situation. I would encourage you to believe that the promise of God is for you and not just for the nation. I don't see it as too late even now for you to believe God for what is impossible in the natural. It cannot happen though if you won't believe that the promise is for you.

I do hope that you see this in the way I mean it, not as a rebuke, but as an encouragement. If not then I'm sorry you feel that way. but I can only believe that God's word is true and try my best to encourage others to believe also.

(sigh) This is how it reads to me, "Honestly Mary, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but now I'm going to go on and on about how my theological view was right even though you expressed that this was a deeply painful subject. No matter what, it's important that you know that my view is the right view. Even if it means I cause you more pain. What really matters is that *I* am understood and that *my* stance is clearly seen as the correct one."

So, since publicly revealing my pain wasn't enough for you to moderate your need to be right, why don't we pretend that I completely agree with you so you will stop stomping around my pain with your big doctrine boots on.