Killing Calvinism: How to Destroy a Perfectly Good Theology from the Inside

[Johnny_B]

I have have come to appreciate the discussion we have had here lately on this subject. As you may know I do not claim to be Reformed or Calvinist, more that I disagree with, after the Doctrines of Grace, then I agree with. But that's not why I am starting this thread, as I was doing some research today I came across a few books with one of them having the title, Killing Calvinism: How to Destroy a Perfectly Good Theology from the Inside. I've said I am an ana-Baptist before then someone said that ana-Baptists believe that they have to maintain their salvation. So in my quest to find out where I fit, I found a group of books that promote Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace and this one caught my eye. Read what the chapters are.

1) By Loving Calvinism as an End in Itself
2) Becoming a Theologian Instead of a Disciple
3) By Loving God's Sovereignty More Than God Himself
4) By Losing an Urgency in Evangelism
5) By Learning Only From Other Calvinists
6) By widely Up the Bible's "Loose Ends"
7) By Being an Arrogant Know-It-All
8) By Scoffing at the Hang-Ups Others Have with Calvinism

I think these are ideas that we all can follow no matter what you believe, we should always be growing in our knowledge of the Scriptures and changing what we believe as more understanding of the Scriptures are reveled to us. There is no end all Theology, the Doctrines of Grace are the start of something greater that we need to understand and let the Scripture revel what it is. I also found some books that present a different view of the Doctrines of Grace, which I am going to look into, if they do not bring Scripture than it's out for me.

 

[Desdichado]

As a Reformed Christian, I'll take these on 1 by 1 and MUST read the book. Modern Calvinists have to check themselves in some ways.

1) By Loving Calvinism as an End in Itself

In so far as this exists, I think it's because Calvinism is trendy. They like the hipster-ish church culture around it.

2) Becoming a Theologian Instead of a Disciple

Intellectual snobbery is common in the younger portions of our ranks. They're still suffering from that know-it-all syndrome expressed throughout the second and third decade of life. Unfortunately, that leaks into theology as well.

3) By Loving God's Sovereignty More Than God Himself

I'd have to read a chapter to take a stab at this one.

4) By Losing an Urgency in Evangelism

Yes. Too common. And it's very sad. It arises from a very cheap understanding of Justification and Sovereignty.

There is also an odd tribalism at work too.

5) By Learning Only From Other Calvinists

We've gotten so zealous in our recovery of theological greats, that we gloss over some others.

I've gotten into some knock-down, drag-out matches over Ravi Zacharias and CS Lewis who I maintain are great thinkers and apologists.

But they were not Reformed enough for some. That's also sad. They're missing out.


6) By widely Up the Bible's "Loose Ends"

I don't know how this is particular to Calvinists.

7) By Being an Arrogant Know-It-All

I'll own up to that. Again. Kids.

8) By Scoffing at the Hang-Ups Others Have with Calvinism

Some deserve scoffing. Others don't. I would word it this way- we don't really prioritize when it comes to scoffing.

 

[Desdichado]

I personally can't wait for the "young, restless, and Reformed" to reach middle age.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Becoming a know-it-all?

Pffft!!

But if you guys wann know what that means, PM me.

 

[dcontroversal]

Whoever said ana-baptists have to maintain their salvation is ignorant of history......the word simple means to ana>again baptize>immerse and was applied unto those who refused to accept Roman Catholic sprinkling as baptism and demanded that those who came out of the catholic dogma be re-baptized in a valid manner......

 

[Grandpa]

Nobody really loves calvinism.

Nobody was happy to find out that they were powerless to keep Gods Commands. And therefore powerless to effect their own salvation.

People mostly want to think that they can work and cause God to Love them and give them salvation. Its probably why calvinism is hated so much. Its against Mens Sovereignty and for Gods Sovereignty. Men mostly don't like that.

 

[Johnny_B]

Nobody really loves calvinism.

Nobody was happy to find out that they were powerless to keep Gods Commands. And therefore powerless to effect their own salvation.

People mostly want to think that they can work and cause God to Love them and give them salvation. Its probably why calvinism is hated so much. Its against Mens Sovereignty and for Gods Sovereignty. Men mostly don't like that.

​They would not have anything to boast of if they submitted to the Word of God.

 

[Rockrz]

I am an ana-Baptist

Started by a lady named Ana?

I personally can't wait for the "young, restless, and Reformed" to reach middle age.

I think that's coming to ABC's Primetime line up this fall, isn't it?

But if you guys wann know what that means, PM me

Yeah, if you wanna talk to a know-it-all... PM this guy

Nobody was happy to find out that they were powerless to keep Gods Commands. And therefore powerless to effect their own salvation.

Meh, it's just an excuse to free one's self from being responsible for anything in their lives... so it's no wonder this is becoming so popular among liberals.

 

[Johnny_B]

Meh, it's just an excuse to free one's self from being responsible for anything in their lives... so it's no wonder this is becoming so popular among liberals.

Everyone is responsible for their actions saved or not, can you quote a post here that says once you are saved you can sin all you want. Because you can live however you want because you want to live for Christ and please the Father through the Holy Spirit. Once you are saved you have freedoms to chose and you'll chose God for the great love His has for you. If someone, once being enlightened to the judgement of God or the fear of the Lord (beginning of wisdom), why would they chose to be in eternal damnation for eternity, they wouldn't.

Hearing the Gospel with out knowing the legal demands of the Law, is like telling someone they can get out of prison free when they have not yet been convicted of a crime as of yet or even know that they broke any law. The standard is total perfection as our heavenly Father is perfect, anyone that looks into the Law of liberty.

James 2:8-13 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

The fulfillment of the Law in our lives is to do as Christ commanded, "love our neighbor as yourself" which is the natural response of someone that follows this. “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” The fulfillment of the Law or 10 commandments, in this you are living as you please because you want to please the Lord. That's why the prosperity gospel is false, it about pleasing self and not the Lord, with all of your fleshly wants, the Lord never promised to meet all your wants, only your needs. They twist that Scripture as they do others to fit their doctrine.

 

[Ariel82]

I have have come to appreciate the discussion we have had here lately on this subject. As you may know I do not claim to be Reformed or Calvinist, more that I disagree with, after the Doctrines of Grace, then I agree with. But that's not why I am starting this thread, as I was doing some research today I came across a few books with one of them having the title, Killing Calvinism: How to Destroy a Perfectly Good Theology from the Inside. I've said I am an ana-Baptist before then someone said that ana-Baptists believe that they have to maintain their salvation. So in my quest to find out where I fit, I found a group of books that promote Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace and this one caught my eye. Read what the chapters are.

1) By Loving Calvinism as an End in Itself
2) Becoming a Theologian Instead of a Disciple
3) By Loving God's Sovereignty More Than God Himself
4) By Losing an Urgency in Evangelism
5) By Learning Only From Other Calvinists
6) By widely Up the Bible's "Loose Ends"
7) By Being an Arrogant Know-It-All
8) By Scoffing at the Hang-Ups Others Have with Calvinism

I think these are ideas that we all can follow no matter what you believe, we should always be growing in our knowledge of the Scriptures and changing what we believe as more understanding of the Scriptures are reveled to us. There is no end all Theology, the Doctrines of Grace are the start of something greater that we need to understand and let the Scripture revel what it is. I also found some books that present a different view of the Doctrines of Grace, which I am going to look into, if they do not bring Scripture than it's out for me.

Sounds like an interesting book.

 

[Rockrz]

can you quote a post here that says once you are saved you can sin all you want

There are those that believe in false grace that claim there is no penalty for sin if one chooses to continue in sin... which is the same thing.

When you look around among those that claim to be Christians... lots of sinful stuff going on... things God said in His Word are sin and those tat do them shall not inherit the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost) which is salvation critical

why would they chose to be in eternal damnation for eternity, they wouldn't.

Modern false grace teachers claim there is no penalty for sin so people choosing to continue in sin believe they will still go to Heaven based on what the false grace teachers tell them.

 

[Johnny_B]

Sounds like an interesting book.

What interests me about it is you can take Calvinism out of those title of those chapters and replace them with Arminianism, Dispensationalism, Molinism or hyper-all of them. We always need to know what others believe from the Scriptures, that's why I do not claim Reformed, Calvinist, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, ana-Baptist, Molinism, as for the latter I am looking into it it's is supposed to be the Southern Baptist view on the Doctrines of Grace with Spurgeon was the most well know to hold this view. I've read a little bit and I'm not seeing their idea of middle knowledge as persossed by William Lane Craig in his book the "Only Wise God" or his article in four views of foreknowledge, can not remember which one it's from, but he did explain it in both books, not word for word.

There are verses that are taken to mean that they are about the elect, which I do not agree with as in I Timothy 2:1-6 and II Peter 3:9, I also do not believe that they are saving that all men will be or can be saved either. Simply that God's desire is that all men would be saved, which we see in Ezekiel 18:23 and 33:11. I do not believe that the atonement is only for the elect, it's for the sins of the whole world, but in it's application it's to those that believe, which is expressed in we, we're, our, ourselves, us, bride, elect, sheep, friend and chosen. I see the Scriptures saying that it benefits are for us, not the world and Jesus' high priestly pray in John 17, he prays for the saints and says I pray not for the world, but these that you gave my Father. So Jesus and the Father with the Holy Spirit had His people in mind when Jesus was offered up for our sins.

The point being that we are always learning what the Scriptures say and all of them point to Jesus or testify of Him. Iron sharpen iron, that's why we need to discuss the Scriptures and where we need to change, we need to do just that. When I came here I was one that translated the verses I mentioned as to the elect, but after discussing God sovereignty with someone here, I realized that I was wrong and had to change. If I can be shown that something in context teaches something that I believe is different I'll change, I do not have a degree from any seminary that I need to protect and if I did I must submit to the Word of God. I know there are lots of new believers here at the same time I see older beliebers that take things out of context or go some where else in the Bible to prove their interpretation of the Scripture and some go so far as to go outside of the Word of God to prove their point, sola scriptura, for me.

I believe in the Doctrines of Grace, the five sola's, if you stick with those I do not see how you can go wrong. I used to say this all the time that the doctrines of grace were a philosophy and not theology, but when I read people trying to explain why they were a philosophy, they would philosophize about them. There are no verse in the Bible that say Jesus died for everyone, they do say that He died for the sins of the world, but not for the sinners of the world. Where it does say who He died for it's always the saints/sheep.

After 500 years of the reformation we can not stay stuck on Calvin's teachings, as beautiful as some are and others are just that he did not have the information we have now, but way of manuscripts, the dead sea scrolls, archeology and the nation of Israel. I can't believe how many people think that America is in the Bible, when it's not, all the prophecies are about nations of people or from the descendants Noah's sons, America is a grab bag of all those descendants, we are not clearly a people of one descendant. I'm babbling again.

 

[Magenta]

There are no verse in the Bible that say Jesus died for everyone,

And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 2 Cor 5:15

 

[Magenta]

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:9

 

[Magenta]

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Tim 2:5-6

 

[Johnny_B]

And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 2 Cor 5:15

You prove my point, who are those after the comma, they are believers not the world, the world lives for themselves. The unbeliever is dead in trespasses and sins, where believers live not for ourselves but for Him that died for them and was raised again. This verse says that He died for them those that do not live for themselves but for Him or the sheep/elect/bride/chosen whatever word you want to use, it's not talking about the world or unbelievers. The context of the verse is not talking about the unbelievers it's talking about believers and how Christ died for them or us.

It is interesting how every Scripture that says something about the atonement in it's context always seems to be for the Church/chosen/bride/saints and not the world, in it's application or it benefits, just like John 3:16. God showed His love for the world by giving His only Son, but the benefits of the atonement are for those that believe, verse 17 He did not come into the world to condemn it, but that world might be save, 18-20 those that do not believe are condemned already, because they love darkness and hate the light (Jesus), they will not come to the light because they love the darkness rather then the light. They also do not want their darkness to be exposed, 21 those that come to the light is to show that God accomplished in them.

 

[Johnny_B]

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Tim 2:5-6

Ransom for all or payment, do you notice no mention of the benefits, but either way you have shown me a Scripture that says He gave Himself a ransom for all, with no mention of the benefits. I used to believe that these verse were some how to the elect only, but that does not line up with what the Scriptures say about the Lord's nature in that He desires that the wicked would turn and live Ezekiel 18 and 33 or 31.

His atonement covers all sin, but the application or benefits are to those that believe, there are two verses that says that He is a ransom and the other says propitiation for our sins and the sins of the world in I John 2:1-3 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

John goes on to say this in 4:9-11 "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." These verses go to explain more in-depth what he was saying in 2:1-3.

This is one that says for the whole world then goes on to say that, by this we have come to know Him, if we love the Lord with all our soul, all our mind, all our strength and all our heart, we will love our neighbors as ourselves. The proof of the benefit or application is that we are saved.

Something that made me say, what? There is a Greek commentary on the New Testament that says that John 3:16-21 were not in the original manuscripts, I find that hard to believe, if it were true why wouldn't there be more said about it.

There are two books that I have come a cross, one is, "Whomever He Wills" and the other is "Whosoever Will" of course they apposing side, the first for Calvinism and second for Arminianism. We can not only read views that are like ours, as I mentioned the Molinism view is something I want to look into. Out of all the different denominational ideas they all have something that is right, we need to examine by the Scriptures which parts are right and hold to them, because it in the Bible and for no other reason.

 

[Ariel82]

Johnny_B...you say "sola scriptura" then make this statement "he did not have the information we have now, but way of manuscripts, the dead sea scrolls, archeology and the nation of Israel"...

Personally I don't trust the dead sea scrolls and believe the nation of Israel is a man-made creation and not of God, because God's people are in Heavenly Jerusalem that will eventually descend from the heavens to Earth after the final judgement day.

I agreed with most of the rest of your post and I tend to babble too. Lol.

 

[Magenta]

You prove my point, who are those after the comma, they are believers not the world, the world lives for themselves. The unbeliever is dead in trespasses and sins, where believers live not for ourselves but for Him that died for them and was raised again. This verse says that He died for them those that do not live for themselves but for Him or the sheep/elect/bride/chosen whatever word you want to use, it's not talking about the world or unbelievers. The context of the verse is not talking about the unbelievers it's talking about believers and how Christ died for them or us.

It is interesting how every Scripture that says something about the atonement in it's context always seems to be for the Church/chosen/bride/saints and not the world, in it's application or it benefits, just like John 3:16. God showed His love for the world by giving His only Son, but the benefits of the atonement are for those that believe, verse 17 He did not come into the world to condemn it, but that world might be save, 18-20 those that do not believe are condemned already, because they love darkness and hate the light (Jesus), they will not come to the light because they love the darkness rather then the light. They also do not want their darkness to be exposed, 21 those that come to the light is to show that God accomplished in them.

LOL. It would be pretty silly if ALL did NOT include believers. It says all and then goes on to speak of a certain group within the all. You were dead in your trespasses and sins until when? And yet Christ died for you and for those who are still dead in their trespasses and sins, just as much as you were at one time. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, it is how God demonstrates His love for us, but not everyone believes this, and therefore not everyone will receive the benefit of it. But you do not accept what Scripture says. You must add to it to fit your theology. I understand there is a word for that...

 

[Desertsrose]

What interests me about it is you can take Calvinism out of those title of those chapters and replace them with Arminianism, Dispensationalism, Molinism or hyper-all of them. We always need to know what others believe from the Scriptures, that's why I do not claim Reformed, Calvinist, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, ana-Baptist, Molinism, as for the latter I am looking into it it's is supposed to be the Southern Baptist view on the Doctrines of Grace with Spurgeon was the most well know to hold this view. I've read a little bit and I'm not seeing their idea of middle knowledge as persossed by William Lane Craig in his book the "Only Wise God" or his article in four views of foreknowledge, can not remember which one it's from, but he did explain it in both books, not word for word.

There are verses that are taken to mean that they are about the elect, which I do not agree with as in I Timothy 2:1-6 and II Peter 3:9, I also do not believe that they are saving that all men will be or can be saved either. Simply that God's desire is that all men would be saved, which we see in Ezekiel 18:23 and 33:11. I do not believe that the atonement is only for the elect, it's for the sins of the whole world, but in it's application it's to those that believe, which is expressed in we, we're, our, ourselves, us, bride, elect, sheep, friend and chosen. I see the Scriptures saying that it benefits are for us, not the world and Jesus' high priestly pray in John 17, he prays for the saints and says I pray not for the world, but these that you gave my Father. So Jesus and the Father with the Holy Spirit had His people in mind when Jesus was offered up for our sins.

The point being that we are always learning what the Scriptures say and all of them point to Jesus or testify of Him. Iron sharpen iron, that's why we need to discuss the Scriptures and where we need to change, we need to do just that. When I came here I was one that translated the verses I mentioned as to the elect, but after discussing God sovereignty with someone here, I realized that I was wrong and had to change. If I can be shown that something in context teaches something that I believe is different I'll change, I do not have a degree from any seminary that I need to protect and if I did I must submit to the Word of God. I know there are lots of new believers here at the same time I see older beliebers that take things out of context or go some where else in the Bible to prove their interpretation of the Scripture and some go so far as to go outside of the Word of God to prove their point, sola scriptura, for me.

I believe in the Doctrines of Grace, the five sola's, if you stick with those I do not see how you can go wrong. I used to say this all the time that the doctrines of grace were a philosophy and not theology, but when I read people trying to explain why they were a philosophy, they would philosophize about them. There are no verse in the Bible that say Jesus died for everyone, they do say that He died for the sins of the world, but not for the sinners of the world. Where it does say who He died for it's always the saints/sheep.

After 500 years of the reformation we can not stay stuck on Calvin's teachings, as beautiful as some are and others are just that he did not have the information we have now, but way of manuscripts, the dead sea scrolls, archeology and the nation of Israel. I can't believe how many people think that America is in the Bible, when it's not, all the prophecies are about nations of people or from the descendants Noah's sons, America is a grab bag of all those descendants, we are not clearly a people of one descendant. I'm babbling again.

Hi Johnny,

I'll have to look into Molinism too. That's a new term for me as well.

I have read some of Spurgeon's writings and he seems to hold to both God's sovereignty and free will in what I've read. But it isn't much, just some of his devotionals and a few gems at a website.

I almost think that one can't put God into a theological box, somehow as humans we end up misrepresenting Him and His word by either limiting Him or by distorting His character and purpose somehow. When Jesus said that He died for the sins of the world, wouldn't that mean people's sins? The world doesn't sin, people do. It makes me think of this scripture that is speaking of people.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Peter 2:1