Law vs Grace?

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loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#21
Yes, but not everyone's "works" will be like yours. :) you can't hold them up to the standard at which you live.
I have no standard, i strive each and every day to live a pleasing life to Yahvah God.

Do not consider I say do as I do, I'm sharing my journey...

Glory to Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah always and forever.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#22
here's the thing.. your righteousness is a filthy rag.

you only please God through Christ, not because of the things you do.
Yahshua is the only way to be cleansed in the eyes of Yahvah God.

I do not consider to be righteous, i accepted Salvation and will strive to live a life pleasing to Yahvah God.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#23
The question cannot be law vs. grace, for each works together. The question we need to ask ourselves is what relation they have to each other, what are we to know about both law and grace. God gave us the law for our benefit, God gave us grace out of His love.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
The question cannot be law vs. grace, for each works together. The question we need to ask ourselves is what relation they have to each other, what are we to know about both law and grace. God gave us the law for our benefit, God gave us grace out of His love.
It is easy,

the law shows us our need for Christ, because we can not even obey ten of the commands he gave us, which shows our need for grace because we can never earn salvation.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#25
eternally-gratefull; ]It is easy,

the law shows us our need for Christ, because we can not even obey ten of the commands he gave us, which shows our need for grace because we can never earn salvation. [/
I do like this. But there is much more to be said, lots more, for a complete understanding of the two. Scripture tells us to be holy and obey. It says the law does not save. It tells us to repent of our sins. We cannot live our life outside the law and have grace. All must work in harmony.

1 Corinthians 6:10
no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.

Christ was from the beginning of our time, but there was a blessed change when he went to the cross, and when penticost came giving all who have faith the blessing of the Holy Spirit. But we must take our sin to Him to be washed clean.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#26
eternally-gratefull; ]It is easy,



I do like this. But there is much more to be said, lots more, for a complete understanding of the two. Scripture tells us to be holy and obey. It says the law does not save. It tells us to repent of our sins. We cannot live our life outside the law and have grace. All must work in harmony.

1 Corinthians 6:10
no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.

Christ was from the beginning of our time, but there was a blessed change when he went to the cross, and when penticost came giving all who have faith the blessing of the Holy Spirit. But we must take our sin to Him to be washed clean.
there is one problem with this. Unless you are sinless. what you say we must do is impossible. We will always need grace, because we will never live up to the law.

Now. this is not to say we can live life as we did before. For those born of God can not do this (1 john) because the spirit of God is in us.
 
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Jewliah

Guest
#27
I read a lot of posts from people who sound to me like some friends we had who've become, for lack of a better term, Messianic Christians. They live 3,000 miles away now, and we don't see the way they live.

So can someone, anyone, actually be specific as to which parts (or is it all?) of the ceremonial law we are to keep? And which parts of the OT Scripture these things come from? I tend to think of Leviticus, but as I'm pretty ignorant of the ceremonial law, there are probably other books of the Bible I should be looking at.

Please- I am seriously asking--can someone be quite specific, and not just throw out generalizations like "the food laws" etc. Are we to wash in some special way after we touch something dead? Or offer something in a ceremonial way for disobedience to that law? (because every time I cook for my family, I touch something dead...)
It's not as if there was a temple when Moses gave these laws, so are we still to offer animals as is told in the first chapters of Leviticus?
Leviticus 5:3--what is human uncleanness? If I change a baby's diaper and accidentally touch what's inside it, or deal with my own monthly cycle...am I to make a guilt offering?

I hope you understand I am really a-s-k-i-n-g for specifics. Is it unlawful to drag a chair across the floor on the Sabbath?
Which parts of the "law" are you speaking of? Just exactly HOW do you live your lives to be obedient to the ceremonial laws? And do you all live the same way?
If you hope to offer us a better way, it would be better if you really explained what this entails. So, I respectfully ask, what should I do?
Thanks! ~ellie
I have been studying the Hebrew roots of Christianity for about 3 or 4 years and I still don't understand a lot of it. God's message is multi-dimensional and has to continually be studied. That is what he really wants is for us to draw close to him daily. So I keep on. I like what I see. I got sick of going to church to be "entertained". I wanted to know and understand the God that I believed in. Luckily fir me my pastors were on the same track so I didn't have to change churches.

One really helpful thing is to try and study Hebrew (This is the language that God spoke to Moses in). Jesus/Yeshua studied Hebrew! It is so detailed and shows that we are only scratching the surface of what we read in English. There are resources out there to help you study. I can recommend some if you'd like, but the thing is you have to do the studying. It's a lot of work, but worth it. (Hebrew Roots TV / Hebraic Roots TV | The Hebraic Roots Network has good teachings, but please use your bible and check what anybody teaches!)

There have been so many churches that have taught things (prejudices, personal preferences, etc) that aren't even biblical. Don't you think that we, as Christians, should study this ancient text so that we can really understand (not just guess) what it says and have more discernment to share with others? It really is our job to study! That's what Jesus did and we are his disciples! We are to do as our teacher did! The majority of Christians don't really understand what they believe. I'm working on it and God is showing me his truths along the way. This is all God's work and God's grace. We are just the instruments.

I actually saw the guy in the video teach once. He is hardcore! I'm not sure if I agree with everything he teaches or I'd end up looking like him! If God wants me there he will lead me in that direction.
 
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Jewliah

Guest
#28
There has always been contention in the church. A lot of it came out of the confusion of were Gentiles to convert to Judaism to be saved? If the Gentiles wanted to accept Christ did they have to accept all the rules of Judaism? Read Romans 14. It is up to you to do what God has called you to do and not judge others for what they are called to. But we must ALL seek God and his righteousness! It's up to you for YOU have a relationship with the God of the universe! How awesome is that!
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#29
It bewilders me that so much of what we know of God has to do with our understanding of the Jews! At the time Paul was writing two rabbis, Hillel and Shammai had schools of thought that was the popular interpretation of bible. To say these men were wrong was like our saying Billy Graham was wrong. Both of them taught that no one could join them unless they followed rituals of the Jews. Shammai was the strictest. They didn’t say much about the God principles the rituals were to teach, just blindly do them. Paul had to put his foot down, so to speak. The church has taken that idea and run wild with it! They quote bible to do this. “We are under grace not law” for instance. What they say is simply truth, but it is only one side of truth. It takes the whole of truth to reach what is true. Truth must include “Be Holy” or “faith without works is dead”, etc. Truth is never one sided, truth looks clearly at the whole.

Everyone knows, with only a small amount of history, of the way that gentiles have even murdered Jews through the centuries. There have been movements to declare the OT not to be included in our bible because it taught Judaism. Constantine, the Roman emperor so instrumental in allowing our Christian Church to become established, made many laws to wipe Judaism out. The church councils for hundreds of years reflected this thought. We have remnants of this in our own view of what God tells us.

I think the Hebrew roots movement came about as a result of these ideas in our church, and is part of a swing toward center.

The Hebrew language tells us so much about our God! It reflects a way of thinking the OT was written to, and explains what God is telling us. I am fascinated with the way it expresses what is done to express an abstract, we stop with the abstract. For instance one of their words for love can be translated as bringing gifts.
 
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NoFallTooFar

Guest
#30
Romans 3:19-22 NLT

19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
 
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NoFallTooFar

Guest
#31
Romans 4:15-16 NLT

For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.
 
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NoFallTooFar

Guest
#32
"For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!) So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe." -Romans 4:15-16 NLT

Thank you God, for your promise. <3
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#33
Remember this was the start of the transition of teaching people that Yahshua the Messiah is the only acceptable
Sin offering for our Transgression of the 10 Commandment.

Many rejected this and continued with the Old covenant... which was law of Moses.

That is why it is written that the Saints are those that Keep the Commandments of Yahvah God and Faith in Yahshua the Messiah

Revelation 14

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#34
Hebrew 10

This is a good read.

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for he is faithful that promised) 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#35
Jewliah, thank you! for the post and link to actual information! :)
I see that your hearts are disposed to simply please the Lord in all things, and I appreciate that.
I think I understand this is a journey you're on, and you may not know the end yet, and I appreciate that, too.

I would also appreciate some real answers to a genuine seeker, please?
I get that you follow the dietary laws, and I think I get why, and that's good with me (not that you, or anyone, needs my approbation! lol)
What I would really like is for one of you who are part of the Hebrew Roots movement (have I named it correctly?) to tell me specifically which other laws of the Torah you obey. Please, I'm not trying to trap you or be disrespectful of what you believe; I am trying to understand. Some of you who post threads like this one are so vague, it seems to me. As I said, if you are trying to show us a better way, why not just be specific?

So, I ask again--other than the 10 commandments and the dietary laws, which Torah laws do you obey? For instance, the gentleman in the video clearly does not shave or trim his facial hair. Is this one of the commands you believe should be followed?
I think I see you are not making animal offerings--is that right? But which laws do you advocate following? I understand this is a journey, but if you are going to post threads like this one in an attempt to help us obey the Lord better, it seems it would be a kindness to be less vague. Why not simply tell us which laws you obey, and why?

Please, please forgive me if I seem hostile...I'm just a bit frustrated.
Thank you so much for your patience with me ~ellie
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#36
There has always been contention in the church. A lot of it came out of the confusion of were Gentiles to convert to Judaism to be saved? If the Gentiles wanted to accept Christ did they have to accept all the rules of Judaism? Read Romans 14. It is up to you to do what God has called you to do and not judge others for what they are called to. But we must ALL seek God and his righteousness! It's up to you for YOU have a relationship with the God of the universe! How awesome is that!
That is true, BUT, as NT believers God has given us His Son and with the Son comes His body, the body of Christ. In that body we are in Christ and members one of another and of His body, flesh and bones (Rom 12:5, Eph 4:25, Eph 5:30). In that body dwells the fulness of God (Eph 1:23). If we are going to have a relationship with Christ, who created all things and by whom all things consist (Col 1:16,17), we will only experience His fulness within His body, which He is the head of and we the members (Col 1:18, 2:19). That body IS the church, the pillar and ground of the truth (1Tim 3:15). In that body and with the saints of that body we are able to comprehend the love of God...

Eph 3:8-21

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#37
there is one problem with this. Unless you are sinless. what you say we must do is impossible. We will always need grace, because we will never live up to the law.

Now. this is not to say we can live life as we did before. For those born of God can not do this (1 john) because the spirit of God is in us.
This is very important. Grace transform our lives in accordance with the "holy calling", which is a call to holiness - a life of obedience to God's laws. It motivates to godly repentance and teaches us how to live according to godly precepts in this world and it gives power to overcome sin and over dark forces. However, this is not to be confused with the imaginations of the "sinless perfection" crowd and their ideas. We are only seen as entirely blameless by way of our position in the only entirely blameless man that ever lived: Christ Jesus, the Son of God.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#38
psychomom;[COLOR=navy said:
why not just be specific? [/color]

So, I ask again--other than the 10 commandments and the dietary laws, which Torah laws do you obey? For instance, the gentleman in the video clearly does not shave or trim his facial hair. Is this one of the commands you believe should be followed?
I think I see you are not making animal offerings--is that right? But which laws do you advocate following? I understand this is a journey, but if you are going to post threads like this one in an attempt to help us obey the Lord better, it seems it would be a kindness to be less vague. Why not simply tell us which laws you obey, and why?

Please, please forgive me if I seem hostile...I'm just a bit frustrated.
Thank you so much for your patience with me ~ellie
Many in the Hebrew Roots movement use some of the ancient rituals that God gave us, but it is because of a different attitude toward the teaching of the OT. It is because of listening to what God the Father taught, along with what God the Son teaches. So it isn’t obeying rituals that makes the movement, or which rituals are obeyed, but the movement is made up of listening to what God the Father teaches.

Paul taught that if we do the physical things without the spiritual the physical acts are useless. He also taught that God was holy, and we are not, it is through grace that we are received in the kingdom. Paul said that if we don’t do the ceremonial laws, it does not mean that we are excluded. This is scripture, just as OT teachings are scripture.

God the Father gave examples of physical things we could do that would help us live a life closer to Him. God said to be clean. We could scrub ourselves, never eat any animal who fed on refuse, be physically clean and still not be spiritually clean. We could act in ways that set us apart as belonging to God and still not belong in our hearts. But as we listen to how God taught, we find that these things can be used to help us be spiritually close to our triune God. Not because of what we eat, but because of the reaction of our humanness to be reminded of our spiritual obligation for cleanness by what we eat.

Many other churches say that we must not use rituals. They go on and on and on about how bad the law is so you can’t tell a Christian from a pagan. That is exaggerating their teachings. Some exaggerate the Hebrew Root teachings to say we just obey the law and we are kidding ourselves.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#39
Interesting that hebrew roots is being discussed in a somewhat unbiased manner. I studied heb roots for almost ten years. When I first started with it I got a LOT of resistance from various christian people who thought it was all sorts of weirdness. Being of the reformed tradition I see some noteworthy similarities, but also striking differences. I won't go into all detail here about all the pros and cons I found with heb roots (if anyone wish to know more then send me a pm), but I still think a lot of its basic arguments is making a lot of sense. For sure there are some good stuff in heb rootism. At its best it's a systematic approach to scripture. In fact I'd say that without a "hebrew mind set" its very hard to rightly get the core of some important biblical studies. More problematic is things like how to apply observant Torah keeping for non-jews and the tendencies (of some) of going into (or exalting) pharasaism or rabbinism etc. Paul is another source of dispute too (like in all of christendom).
 
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NoFallTooFar

Guest
#40
"Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are." -Romans 3:19-22 NLT

The agape love of God...