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I have listened to over a hundred different grace believers from different denominations which amounts to over 1,000 messages and I have never heard anyone say what you have said in blue above. I have heard the complete opposite of what you said above.
I have heard these grace teachers and have myself with many more on here in CC wrote Titus 2:11-12 which states that grace teaches us to live godly in this present world.
Maybe you can direct us to a person that has said what you said in blue above?...and not a heretic-hunter's website...from the "horse's mouth " themselves. Thank you
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I think yinz might be misunderstanding me. Grace does NOT give us a right to sin. By the grace of God we can be free from the slavery of sin by the work of Christ on the cross. If we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior our sins are forgiven by the grace of God but, again, this does not give us the right to keep on sinning.
If we say we have accepted Christ yet continue to willfully sin have we truly acepted Christ. By the blood of Christ we are free from the bondage of sin.
If we say we have accepted Christ yet continue to willfully sin have we truly acepted Christ. By the blood of Christ we are free from the bondage of sin.
If you have heard them preach the complete opposite of what I showed in my previous post, then that's an alarm towards trouble, because Paul clearly taught against sinning to cause one to become a reprobate.
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
KJV
We are to examine ourselves Paul says, whether we "be in the faith". Our Lord Jesus is in us, UNLESS we are reprobates (i.e., rebellious, sinful, etc.). A reprobate is the same idea as an apostate, maybe even a bit worse since in the Greek it refers to one who is rejected, or cast away.
2 Tim 3:1-8
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
KJV
That list there in 2 Timothy gives more info about a reprobate who is not 'in the faith'.
What many in the Hyper-Grace movement are not understanding is that our acts are still very important to The Lord after we have believed on Him through His Son. His Way is always... about asking forgiveness when we do wrong, and not only to Him, but to those we've wronged!
Wrong someone and refuse to ask forgiveness of the person wronged, and you possibly will have made an enemy. Ask forgiveness and you will have made a friend that possibly will put their trust in you.
That is a natural part of the good nature given God's people by The Holy Spirit. And the flip side of that is how can one expect to receive forgiveness if they don't forgive others?
But Joseph Prince ideas like saying The Lord's Prayer of Luke 11 is to condemn oneself because it asks forgiveness of sins, is a major alarm against this basic principle in God's Word about asking forgiveness.
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
KJV
We are to examine ourselves Paul says, whether we "be in the faith". Our Lord Jesus is in us, UNLESS we are reprobates (i.e., rebellious, sinful, etc.). A reprobate is the same idea as an apostate, maybe even a bit worse since in the Greek it refers to one who is rejected, or cast away.
2 Tim 3:1-8
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
KJV
That list there in 2 Timothy gives more info about a reprobate who is not 'in the faith'.
What many in the Hyper-Grace movement are not understanding is that our acts are still very important to The Lord after we have believed on Him through His Son. His Way is always... about asking forgiveness when we do wrong, and not only to Him, but to those we've wronged!
Wrong someone and refuse to ask forgiveness of the person wronged, and you possibly will have made an enemy. Ask forgiveness and you will have made a friend that possibly will put their trust in you.
That is a natural part of the good nature given God's people by The Holy Spirit. And the flip side of that is how can one expect to receive forgiveness if they don't forgive others?
But Joseph Prince ideas like saying The Lord's Prayer of Luke 11 is to condemn oneself because it asks forgiveness of sins, is a major alarm against this basic principle in God's Word about asking forgiveness.
Again I have never heard that our acts doesn't matter to God. I don't have a clue where people get this stuff. Grace teachers say that sin is destructive and deceitful and they are ALL against sinning. It's amazing the things that people come up with.
I have heard many teach that people need to "see if they are in the faith". "Being in the faith" is being in Christ. There are many that think they are Christians but may not be. It's a good reminder for preachers to exhort people to examine themselves to make sure that they are in fact in Christ.
I have never heard anyone say not to forgive others or to go and ask forgiveness of those that you have done something to, so that has nothing to do with teaching the grace of Christ for living in this present world.
As far as forgiveness from God being conditional after the cross...here are 2 links below that speaks to all of that as I don't want to de-rail this thread, so you can go and read that post.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139224-truth-words-paul-4.html#post2716935
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139224-truth-words-paul-4.html#post2716952
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139224-truth-words-paul-4.html#post2716972
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Being able to boil down something to the essence of what it is saying is actually very important. Why is this? Because at the core of any message are details that matter. The doctrine which we believe in does matter. If any point of our doctrine doesn't line up with what the bible says, then we have a serious issue in what we believe.
No one comes and states outright that if we sin there is no consequence. Yes we are under grace.
There is a phrase that has been coined in this forum that is simply condescending and that is "grace believers believe this" or "we believe in God's grace" when speaking against those that stand for a biblical upholding and understanding of conduct. They say "grace believers" and try to differentiate themselves from the legalists and pharisees by their definition. Yet when the people being spoken against embrace a biblical grace viewpoint, you now have two different views of God's grace. Coupled with the false unity for the sake of unity message we have a huge boiling mess that will not be resolved any time soon. Shots have been fired from both sides and ultimately it doesn't matter what we believe in if it does not line up with the scriptures.
To the OP. Hyper-grace is a misnomer term coined for a rather... strange movement and view of what constitutes God's grace. It is essentially a re-invention of the Calvinist teaching of Once Saved Always Saved. Both at the very core teach that no matter what you do as a Christian, it doesn't matter since you cannot fall away from God. Based on this teaching, yes, one can be a Christian and sin with no eternal consequence.
Now we will have people saying... no, that's not what we believe about God's grace! These people were never Christians to begin with. However, doesn't that take into account the fact that God expressly forbids us to judge the heart of another person? We as the body of Christ are called to judge the fruit, actions, and doctrine of other members of the body of Christ. We are NEVER called to judge another person's salvation status or heart. By saying someone who may be a Christian but has fallen into sin was never a Christian to begin with is a very troubling statement and completely unbiblical.
Why then do we say a Christian who is in sin and doesn't repent is in danger? Because the bible says so and gives quite a few examples from OT to NT of how those who are in God need to remain and abide in Him. God doesn't promise us an easy path as a Christian, but the reward is well worth it. We will be tested, we will undergo hardships.... but we are promised this by God Himself when He says that these various trials are good for us as they help us grow! We cannot grow in faith without testing. We can fail tests and slide down that mountain we have climbed. The beauty of God's grace is that we can repent and continue climbing back up.
God is not looking for perfection. We have flesh bodies that are contrary to the Spirit of God. We cannot be perfect until we are glorified which is the end result of our Sanctification Process also called by Paul as our "race of faith" which begins after Justification. Sinless perfectionism is often lumped into the accusation of brethren who hold firm to the word of God and understand that we are called to a higher standard of conduct in Christ Jesus. However, sinless perfectionism is of itself a heresy. We cannot be 100% sinless if we reside in flesh bodies. God is not looking for perfection, but a heart purposed for Him and to do His will. If we sin, we simply repent and turn back to Him, and He who is our Mediator and Advocate is good to forgive us as new creations! This dynamic is a NT dynamic of grace. Those who are not born again do not have this Mediator and Advocate in whom they can repent and be forgiven in the same way as born again believers. The good news of the gospel is that we do not have to endure eternal torment in hell, but we can accept the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, repent of a life lived outside of Christ, and walk forward as a new creation, past sins wiped clean by the blood of the cross! We can then partake in what God has prepared for us and oh how wonderful that reward is if we bear our cross and abide in Him to the end. How amazing is God's grace?
No one comes and states outright that if we sin there is no consequence. Yes we are under grace.
There is a phrase that has been coined in this forum that is simply condescending and that is "grace believers believe this" or "we believe in God's grace" when speaking against those that stand for a biblical upholding and understanding of conduct. They say "grace believers" and try to differentiate themselves from the legalists and pharisees by their definition. Yet when the people being spoken against embrace a biblical grace viewpoint, you now have two different views of God's grace. Coupled with the false unity for the sake of unity message we have a huge boiling mess that will not be resolved any time soon. Shots have been fired from both sides and ultimately it doesn't matter what we believe in if it does not line up with the scriptures.
To the OP. Hyper-grace is a misnomer term coined for a rather... strange movement and view of what constitutes God's grace. It is essentially a re-invention of the Calvinist teaching of Once Saved Always Saved. Both at the very core teach that no matter what you do as a Christian, it doesn't matter since you cannot fall away from God. Based on this teaching, yes, one can be a Christian and sin with no eternal consequence.
Now we will have people saying... no, that's not what we believe about God's grace! These people were never Christians to begin with. However, doesn't that take into account the fact that God expressly forbids us to judge the heart of another person? We as the body of Christ are called to judge the fruit, actions, and doctrine of other members of the body of Christ. We are NEVER called to judge another person's salvation status or heart. By saying someone who may be a Christian but has fallen into sin was never a Christian to begin with is a very troubling statement and completely unbiblical.
Why then do we say a Christian who is in sin and doesn't repent is in danger? Because the bible says so and gives quite a few examples from OT to NT of how those who are in God need to remain and abide in Him. God doesn't promise us an easy path as a Christian, but the reward is well worth it. We will be tested, we will undergo hardships.... but we are promised this by God Himself when He says that these various trials are good for us as they help us grow! We cannot grow in faith without testing. We can fail tests and slide down that mountain we have climbed. The beauty of God's grace is that we can repent and continue climbing back up.
God is not looking for perfection. We have flesh bodies that are contrary to the Spirit of God. We cannot be perfect until we are glorified which is the end result of our Sanctification Process also called by Paul as our "race of faith" which begins after Justification. Sinless perfectionism is often lumped into the accusation of brethren who hold firm to the word of God and understand that we are called to a higher standard of conduct in Christ Jesus. However, sinless perfectionism is of itself a heresy. We cannot be 100% sinless if we reside in flesh bodies. God is not looking for perfection, but a heart purposed for Him and to do His will. If we sin, we simply repent and turn back to Him, and He who is our Mediator and Advocate is good to forgive us as new creations! This dynamic is a NT dynamic of grace. Those who are not born again do not have this Mediator and Advocate in whom they can repent and be forgiven in the same way as born again believers. The good news of the gospel is that we do not have to endure eternal torment in hell, but we can accept the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, repent of a life lived outside of Christ, and walk forward as a new creation, past sins wiped clean by the blood of the cross! We can then partake in what God has prepared for us and oh how wonderful that reward is if we bear our cross and abide in Him to the end. How amazing is God's grace?
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Hyper-grace
The term hyper-grace was invented to cover a certain set of theological teachings and
attitudes. To simply say it is just a few groups gone crazy, is to deny the very worked
out theological ideas and continual propoganda campaign by certain people to ridicule people
who do not agree with them, and push the same concepts without balancing the argument.
My impression is though people of another faith wish to stay within the traditional umbrella
of faith, it cannot be done.
If biblical scholars of the protestant tradition, men and women of God call the positions held
heresy and outside the cannon of faith, that is the position of the faith.
I for one have no respect for anyone pushing the sermon on the mount is not preached directly
at believers today. Our core christian ceremonies and traditions originate in the gospels, and
Jesus's words. To attack this, is just starting something new.
Now the phrase the genie is out of the bottle, is just what has happened. There is a lot of deception
around redefining words, making what is obvious into something more mysterious and obscure, using
words like "only the spiritual will understand true grace" when it is actually obvious what is being put
forward which scripture simply does not support.
They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3:11
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1 Peter 1:22
The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Tim 1:5
So deep is the ethic of the evil of self-righteousness, it becomes condemnation of anything
that could be interpreted as self justification, even if it is just loving Christ.
The most extreme go for everyones sin is forgiven, judgement is just of deeds not sins, and
people are sent to Hell for eternal torture for rejecting Christ and nothing else.
None of this is something I have made up or from my own mind, it is 100% argued and maintained
by the groups believers here or in the teachers books and sermons.
What is interesting is some responses are "malice, slander, hatred, foolishness"
Not a very successful defence, rather the exact thing these people accuse others of doing.
And the justification for the "new lenses theology" is the whole traditional church is completely
soaked in hypocracy and sin. Sin the church started 2000+ it has always been lost because God
is not able to teach people the real gospel until now.
Unfortunately this devalues Gods wisdom and gospel and is exactly what every new cult claims.
The term hyper-grace was invented to cover a certain set of theological teachings and
attitudes. To simply say it is just a few groups gone crazy, is to deny the very worked
out theological ideas and continual propoganda campaign by certain people to ridicule people
who do not agree with them, and push the same concepts without balancing the argument.
My impression is though people of another faith wish to stay within the traditional umbrella
of faith, it cannot be done.
If biblical scholars of the protestant tradition, men and women of God call the positions held
heresy and outside the cannon of faith, that is the position of the faith.
I for one have no respect for anyone pushing the sermon on the mount is not preached directly
at believers today. Our core christian ceremonies and traditions originate in the gospels, and
Jesus's words. To attack this, is just starting something new.
Now the phrase the genie is out of the bottle, is just what has happened. There is a lot of deception
around redefining words, making what is obvious into something more mysterious and obscure, using
words like "only the spiritual will understand true grace" when it is actually obvious what is being put
forward which scripture simply does not support.
They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3:11
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1 Peter 1:22
The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Tim 1:5
So deep is the ethic of the evil of self-righteousness, it becomes condemnation of anything
that could be interpreted as self justification, even if it is just loving Christ.
The most extreme go for everyones sin is forgiven, judgement is just of deeds not sins, and
people are sent to Hell for eternal torture for rejecting Christ and nothing else.
None of this is something I have made up or from my own mind, it is 100% argued and maintained
by the groups believers here or in the teachers books and sermons.
What is interesting is some responses are "malice, slander, hatred, foolishness"
Not a very successful defence, rather the exact thing these people accuse others of doing.
And the justification for the "new lenses theology" is the whole traditional church is completely
soaked in hypocracy and sin. Sin the church started 2000+ it has always been lost because God
is not able to teach people the real gospel until now.
Unfortunately this devalues Gods wisdom and gospel and is exactly what every new cult claims.
And on, and on, and on..........
Small point - 5 months ago we worked through all the different doctrines of hyper-grace
and how different people took it.
It was eye opening and demonstrated it is not a cohesive school of thought. I am sure most of
the believers are sincere people, wanting to resolve issues deep in their christian experience.
As the points being raised here are not new, and there is now a massive amount of
documentation both pro and anti, is there anything left to resurrect?
The problem with shinning a light on a theological position, if it is not actually dug out, it is just
doomed.
I think a lot of people cannot face God and just let it go.
and how different people took it.
It was eye opening and demonstrated it is not a cohesive school of thought. I am sure most of
the believers are sincere people, wanting to resolve issues deep in their christian experience.
As the points being raised here are not new, and there is now a massive amount of
documentation both pro and anti, is there anything left to resurrect?
The problem with shinning a light on a theological position, if it is not actually dug out, it is just
doomed.
I think a lot of people cannot face God and just let it go.
I am sorry Willie - where did hate come from?
We are called to love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Today I got the feeling from a song I was listening to how I used to be, before I met
the Lord. My life was going into myself and a see of emotions that were racing around
and not nice against anyone.
Now in all sincerity Christ has purified my heart. There is no sea and my feelings are free
and resolved. I hold nothing against any group or tradition or person. This is a real place
Jesus can bring anyone willing to. At the foot of the cross there is only oneself and our
Lord.
All I know is emotional reality is a different world, and people with common experiences
know the description. In my innocence I just expect similar experiences in my fellow
brothers and sisters, or am I wrong? I feel it in Pauls, Peters and James writings, more
so now than ever before.
We are called to love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Today I got the feeling from a song I was listening to how I used to be, before I met
the Lord. My life was going into myself and a see of emotions that were racing around
and not nice against anyone.
Now in all sincerity Christ has purified my heart. There is no sea and my feelings are free
and resolved. I hold nothing against any group or tradition or person. This is a real place
Jesus can bring anyone willing to. At the foot of the cross there is only oneself and our
Lord.
All I know is emotional reality is a different world, and people with common experiences
know the description. In my innocence I just expect similar experiences in my fellow
brothers and sisters, or am I wrong? I feel it in Pauls, Peters and James writings, more
so now than ever before.
The idea of trying to somehow “balance grace” with anything is ludicrous according to both Scripture and plain reason. Grace, by definition, is radically IMBALANCED in our favor! If it were not, it would cease to be grace on that very basis! The term “hyper-grace” is far from insulting! It is in fact the ONLY kind of grace taught, supported and promoted in the Bible.
God understands that His grace is open to the possibility of abuse by those who might misunderstand it. He understands that people may take His grace for granted or even at times misrepresent it as a license to sin. Paul addressed those concerns very clearly, as did Jesus and the other New Testament writers. He was slanderously accused of saying for people to sin now all the want because of the true gospel of the grace of Christ by those that did not understand what he was saying.
However, the fact that grace is open to misinterpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water it down, explain it away or cheapen its glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced."
There is nothing balanced whatsoever about the grace of God! We rejoice in that! We celebrate that! We proclaim that without apology!
God understands that His grace is open to the possibility of abuse by those who might misunderstand it. He understands that people may take His grace for granted or even at times misrepresent it as a license to sin. Paul addressed those concerns very clearly, as did Jesus and the other New Testament writers. He was slanderously accused of saying for people to sin now all the want because of the true gospel of the grace of Christ by those that did not understand what he was saying.
However, the fact that grace is open to misinterpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water it down, explain it away or cheapen its glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced."
There is nothing balanced whatsoever about the grace of God! We rejoice in that! We celebrate that! We proclaim that without apology!
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I suppose "grace believers" is better than children of the devil, heretics, and gnostics. Considering these are the terms used against believers who understand God's grace (to some degree, praise God), one might understand that the title "grace believers" is more so a response to a heart judgement (as you call it) of us from people who hold to certain doctrines that don't fully comprehend the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I'd say we are all Christians but you have those that are not "grace believers'' accusing us of being of another faith. Another gospel. Children of the devil. So where as I might consider these people fellow believers in Christ, having yet received God's revelation of His grace they do not even consider me a fellow believer at all. "You are of another faith." VVith that in mind, how can correction done in meekness even begin? To them, they must preach the Gospel to a person who isn't even saved.
I'd say we are all Christians but you have those that are not "grace believers'' accusing us of being of another faith. Another gospel. Children of the devil. So where as I might consider these people fellow believers in Christ, having yet received God's revelation of His grace they do not even consider me a fellow believer at all. "You are of another faith." VVith that in mind, how can correction done in meekness even begin? To them, they must preach the Gospel to a person who isn't even saved.
And you have "grace believers" accusing us who also believe and embrace God's grace and finished work as well as what God requires of us as born again believers.... as being of another faith, another gospel, and children of the devil. We are called Legalists and Pharisees when there is nothing legalistic or Pharisaical about standing in the word of God. Some recent comments are evidence of that, and I'm surprised they are allowed to stand.
So I repeat your question as to how can correction be done in meekness even begin? Many posts I have seen so far have been done in meekness only to have people respond with comments like "Their condemnation is just" or "they're filled with hate." Some comments from both sides have been inflammatory as well and I fully accept that. However, many have been thrown to the wayside which have been done in meek, courteous discourse and instead of discussion.
So I repeat your question as to how can correction be done in meekness even begin? Many posts I have seen so far have been done in meekness only to have people respond with comments like "Their condemnation is just" or "they're filled with hate." Some comments from both sides have been inflammatory as well and I fully accept that. However, many have been thrown to the wayside which have been done in meek, courteous discourse and instead of discussion.
I have a simple analogy
I am a child of my Father, one on earth and one in heaven.
I have a debt to both, one who did not really know me or himself and the other
is my "Abba Father."
Someone once said everyone is like them. It is the base assumption we all make,
but life teaches us that though in general terms this is true, in particular we are
all different.
Now to the book pickers, who make lists and measure failure, and are happy to
feel their Lord accepts them as wicked lost people without hope of finding purity
or holiness, the Lord is happy to leave them where they are.
These people talk about portals of blessings, angels, visitations of blessings of
gold dust, angel wings, gems, gold teeth, words from the dead, ability to speak
things into existance, and all manner of impossible things.
Now question any of this, even a little you are an evil spirit, never knowing Christ
or the Holy Spirit. Talk about righteousness and conquering through love, and mockery
follows.
Now this strange group have learnt this does not go down very well so they temper
their approach.
Now imagine this, my heart just rejoices in Christ my Saviour and the cross, victory over sin,
and fellowship in love with my fellow believers. This is possible, and at the age I am now,
I am likely to see the Lord very soon, Hallelujah.
Now if sins enslaves you, if the habits of life and world ensnare you, that is the Christs will for
your life. Christ does deliver freedom, it is what the cross means. So I call you to believe,
to open the door and just humble yourself and ask the Lord to show you.
It is no more complex than that. One step at a time, through a life, of repentance, confession
healing and grace. I know who has saved me, Amen.
I am a child of my Father, one on earth and one in heaven.
I have a debt to both, one who did not really know me or himself and the other
is my "Abba Father."
Someone once said everyone is like them. It is the base assumption we all make,
but life teaches us that though in general terms this is true, in particular we are
all different.
Now to the book pickers, who make lists and measure failure, and are happy to
feel their Lord accepts them as wicked lost people without hope of finding purity
or holiness, the Lord is happy to leave them where they are.
These people talk about portals of blessings, angels, visitations of blessings of
gold dust, angel wings, gems, gold teeth, words from the dead, ability to speak
things into existance, and all manner of impossible things.
Now question any of this, even a little you are an evil spirit, never knowing Christ
or the Holy Spirit. Talk about righteousness and conquering through love, and mockery
follows.
Now this strange group have learnt this does not go down very well so they temper
their approach.
Now imagine this, my heart just rejoices in Christ my Saviour and the cross, victory over sin,
and fellowship in love with my fellow believers. This is possible, and at the age I am now,
I am likely to see the Lord very soon, Hallelujah.
Now if sins enslaves you, if the habits of life and world ensnare you, that is the Christs will for
your life. Christ does deliver freedom, it is what the cross means. So I call you to believe,
to open the door and just humble yourself and ask the Lord to show you.
It is no more complex than that. One step at a time, through a life, of repentance, confession
healing and grace. I know who has saved me, Amen.