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Hi Angela,
I love and respect you and consider you a sister in the Lord. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think the others are glorifying Free will either. We're just stating that it's a part of God's character and will to allow man to choose Him or reject Him.
I would say that Salvation is about God and us. Without us there's no need for God to save anyone, but because we need to be saved and restored to a right relationship with Him, it's definitely about us as well. And I say will all my heart that God gets all the glory for saving mankind.
And I think it's important that man know he can freely come to God to be saved. He said so.
In many ways we would agree on how man is saved, but it's the details that get in the way of our total agreement.
Instead of saying what you think we're saying, how about asking us. You could say, "so are you glorifying free will?" Or you could ask, "do you get any glory out of your choice?"
Why can't both sides dialog and try to understand one another instead of assuming something? Why assume I glorify free will? I thank God for it, but I glorify Him. I thank Him for the ability to make a choice. He's worthy and we have no worth in and of ourselves.
Jesus is the one that saves us.....He atoned for our sins. There's no other salvation, but in Him our Wonderful Savior.
I haven't heard anyone on this thread even hint that their choice saves them, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did because we all aren't perfect in our understanding.
Just as you believe in what you think is correct, so do I. So as I respect you, please respect me.
Can we not still get along without assumptions? Ask if anyone here thinks that God is at their beck and call. Don't assume it because you don't like the way we believe.
Love ya.........!!!
I think you are overstating the matter. Scripture is very clear that man gets saved at the determinate will of God and not himself. Does every man have the opportunity to decide between God and condemnation? I do not think scripture teaches that God makes the decision for us.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I am beginning to see this as a phantom argument. God does not predetermine who is saved and who is lost. Man cannot get saved when he wants and how he wants which is the real problem. We have a whole host of folks who want to be saved from condemnation but they do not want the blood of Christ to cleanse them from their sins. They only desire to be good enough to get into heaven but still desire the pleasures of the world.
Free will and free choice are only free to the extent that God allows them to be free. At the same time God does not compel any man to be saved against his will.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I am beginning to see this as a phantom argument. God does not predetermine who is saved and who is lost. Man cannot get saved when he wants and how he wants which is the real problem. We have a whole host of folks who want to be saved from condemnation but they do not want the blood of Christ to cleanse them from their sins. They only desire to be good enough to get into heaven but still desire the pleasures of the world.
Free will and free choice are only free to the extent that God allows them to be free. At the same time God does not compel any man to be saved against his will.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
since you so kindly offered, i will try again.
you just posted a bunch of verses from Romans 3 that show man's inability and unwillingness to come to Christ.
do you remember Tribesman? (i do miss him so) he once told me that the statements like "choose you this day" and "as for me and my house" etc. were spoken by people already in covenant with God.
he said that had the ability to make such choices because God had already placed them in covenant with Him.
you just posted a bunch of verses from Romans 3 that show man's inability and unwillingness to come to Christ.
do you remember Tribesman? (i do miss him so) he once told me that the statements like "choose you this day" and "as for me and my house" etc. were spoken by people already in covenant with God.
he said that had the ability to make such choices because God had already placed them in covenant with Him.
May I ask what exactly you are saying? Joshua just wasting his breath because these people were already chosen and therefore had nothing to choose? How bout spiritual idolatry, i.e. serving other gods? They had to make a choice -
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve the LORD.
[SUP]15[/SUP] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods; . . .
The Israelites were always straying from the one true God to serve other gods . . .
Salvation isn't about you? You are the one receiving eternal life or eternal death - I would say that it does have to do with you. YES, salvation is about Christ - He is the way, the truth, and the life, there is NO salvation apart from belief in the only begotten Son of God - if a person doesn't believe this though then they are not saved . . . right? So who does the believing and who does the rejecting? What is predestined is the fact that before the foundation of the world, he has chosen those who believe unto adoption as children, those who believe have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins . . . .
I agree - it is the death and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ that is important. Yes, God calls man, (there has to be an answer to the call), God changes us by placing his desires within us through being partakers of the divine nature, we are to renew our minds - to put on the new man and to put off the old man . . . these things we are told to do, and we are to be witnesses to others.
I truly believe that it was my personal choice to believe - I had to confess Jesus as Lord and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead. Did God open my eyes of understanding to the gospel as preached through his word? Did the Holy Spirit work within me via the preaching of the word? Yes. But I still had to believe it . . . . A sinner can call out to God . . . Jesus Christ came to call sinners to repentance. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. . . . For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth . . .
I agree - it is the death and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ that is important. Yes, God calls man, (there has to be an answer to the call), God changes us by placing his desires within us through being partakers of the divine nature, we are to renew our minds - to put on the new man and to put off the old man . . . these things we are told to do, and we are to be witnesses to others.
I truly believe that it was my personal choice to believe - I had to confess Jesus as Lord and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead. Did God open my eyes of understanding to the gospel as preached through his word? Did the Holy Spirit work within me via the preaching of the word? Yes. But I still had to believe it . . . . A sinner can call out to God . . . Jesus Christ came to call sinners to repentance. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. . . . For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth . . .
Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?[Hab. 1:13]
Sorry Sissy, you're theology is way off the rails. God and Adam communed daily. So, this shows Adam was sinless. After the sixth day, God declared His whole creation 'good and very good.' If Adam was not sinless, then he was not 'good and very good' and God was fooled when He said that.
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?[Hab. 1:13]
Sorry Sissy, you're theology is way off the rails. God and Adam communed daily. So, this shows Adam was sinless. After the sixth day, God declared His whole creation 'good and very good.' If Adam was not sinless, then he was not 'good and very good' and God was fooled when He said that.
Wow, really? Unbelievable that you simply go to "what it ends with" and leave it at that. Goodness sake, trying to be patient here but you cannot just simply go to the end and curtail the entire passage in that way.
Actually it is the best because it shows what I am saying thoroughly in God's Sovereign election.
You're completely missing the leading context prior to the "come unto me" (starting in verse 25) which cannot be divorced from the context. Try reading it again, and see what Jesus is actually saying in the leading context because that is to whom He is referring in the latter and it all ties together.
Actually it is the best because it shows what I am saying thoroughly in God's Sovereign election.
You're completely missing the leading context prior to the "come unto me" (starting in verse 25) which cannot be divorced from the context. Try reading it again, and see what Jesus is actually saying in the leading context because that is to whom He is referring in the latter and it all ties together.
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No. Ppl are w/o excuse because they died sinners and had the Law written on their hearts. I love watching a show called 'River Monsters' where a marine biologist, Jeremy Wade, goes into very remote areas to catch water predators. These ppl, most of them, live is some of the most remote areas, even no electric. So no TV. I wonder if any missionairies have been there.
I reject this ideology. Faith comes by hearing the message about the Christ.[Romans 10:17] The context of Romans 10:14-17 is via the verbal proclamation of the gospel, not these unfounded mystical accounts.
There were a few Gentiles who believed, such as Ruth and Rahab, but a vast majority were left out.
Never mentioned Replacement Theology. The church, the body of the Christ, is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.
Paul easily laid this out in Romans 2. The true Israel comprises both Jews and Gentiles, those who have been circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit of God.[Romans 2:28,29]
Those who are under the power of sin are those who do not understand, do not seek Him. That's the context of that passage.
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Hi Angela,
I love and respect you and consider you a sister in the Lord. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think the others are glorifying Free will either. We're just stating that it's a part of God's character and will to allow man to choose Him or reject Him.
I would say that Salvation is about God and us. Without us there's no need for God to save anyone, but because we need to be saved and restored to a right relationship with Him, it's definitely about us as well. And I say will all my heart that God gets all the glory for saving mankind.
And I think it's important that man know he can freely come to God to be saved. He said so.
In many ways we would agree on how man is saved, but it's the details that get in the way of our total agreement.
Instead of saying what you think we're saying, how about asking us. You could say, "so are you glorifying free will?" Or you could ask, "do you get any glory out of your choice?"
Why can't both sides dialog and try to understand one another instead of assuming something? Why assume I glorify free will? I thank God for it, but I glorify Him. I thank Him for the ability to make a choice. He's worthy and we have no worth in and of ourselves.
Jesus is the one that saves us.....He atoned for our sins. There's no other salvation, but in Him our Wonderful Savior.
I haven't heard anyone on this thread even hint that their choice saves them, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did because we all aren't perfect in our understanding.
Just as you believe in what you think is correct, so do I. So as I respect you, please respect me.
Can we not still get along without assumptions? Ask if anyone here thinks that God is at their beck and call. Don't assume it because you don't like the way we believe.
Love ya.........!!!
But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them; and suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison house were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were unfastened.
When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!” And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
And yet God loves them, Jesus died for them and says, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
And.......
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:6-11
I read the Bible i was taking in the Laws which revealed to me that i was guilty of sins.. But i had to agree with the Law that it was good and correct before i felt guilty..
I read the Bible which told me of the Way God had made for me to be redeemed by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and i just through it was the most awesome loving thing i had ever read, So i loved the Way God had made for me to be forgiven so i embraced it with joy..
But in both areas i had to agree with the message that the Bible was giving me.. I was not a calvinist zombie who had no control over my own thoughts..
So there you go Depleted.. your question answered..
I read the Bible which told me of the Way God had made for me to be redeemed by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and i just through it was the most awesome loving thing i had ever read, So i loved the Way God had made for me to be forgiven so i embraced it with joy..
But in both areas i had to agree with the message that the Bible was giving me.. I was not a calvinist zombie who had no control over my own thoughts..
So there you go Depleted.. your question answered..
Well then stop replying to me....
When i see a thread i respond to a thread.. And if someone reponds to my thoughts i will usually respond.. I am under no obligation to read every post in a thread to respond to the Opening post of a thread.. So if you think i am obliged to read all your posts then you have a delusional level of belief in your own self importance..
Anyone who thinks people are going to sit down and read hundereds of posts on a thread before responding to the opening question is not someone i want to respond to anymore anyway..
When i see a thread i respond to a thread.. And if someone reponds to my thoughts i will usually respond.. I am under no obligation to read every post in a thread to respond to the Opening post of a thread.. So if you think i am obliged to read all your posts then you have a delusional level of belief in your own self importance..
Anyone who thinks people are going to sit down and read hundereds of posts on a thread before responding to the opening question is not someone i want to respond to anymore anyway..