Lets Talk Free Choice

[maxwel]

Ok how dose being told the truth further abuses a victim of lies or a liar.
Blessings
Bill

Hey Bill,
I'm not sure exactly what Willie is referring to, but it's certainly possible for kids to be further traumatized by having to deal with attorneys, and court, and reliving everything over and over, and then everyone in town knowing what happened to them.

I think we'd want to see the victims protected and counseled, and the perpetrator kept from harming more children. But this is pretty messy stuff... it can probably be done with all different degrees of collateral damage.

Since these are really messy and traumatic issues, I think we can all imagine how they might be handled very badly by some people.

I'm guessing Willie has just seen these messy things handled badly.

 

[Willie-T]

Hey Bill,
I'm not sure exactly what Willie is referring to, but it's certainly possible for kids to be further traumatized by having to deal with attorneys, and court, and reliving everything over and over, and then everyone in town knowing what happened to them.

I think we'd want to see the victims protected and counseled, and the perpetrator kept from harming more children. But this is pretty messy stuff... it can probably be done with all different degrees of collateral damage.

Since these are really messy and traumatic issues, I think we can all imagine how they might be handled very badly by some people.

I'm guessing Willie has just seen these messy things handled badly.

All too many times. Vengeance (at any cost) seems more important to a lot of people than the child does.

 

[Ariel82]

I'm just looking for pig tails to pull......snapping the head off your Barbie doll kind of thing.

What are you gonna do.....tell dad?

Nah put frogs in your bed, use a magnifying glass on your green army men or something like that.

 

[Laish]

Usually, with Westboro types. It is either the almost always negative emphasis of their message, or the seeming desire to sound like a circa 1800's fire-and-brimstone proclaimer of doom.

Jesus told us to go spread the Good News. Many of us much prefer to deliver it as about 90% damnation, and, if lucky, maybe 10%, the redemption of Christ.

Ok your first comparison is off . First off I don't see any Wesbro types here . Westbro folks preach a false message. Unless you believe they were telling the truth. You did say that folks were being abused again by a desire to get to the truth. So I don't see a match up here .
You correct we should spread the Gospel in truth 100% truth . Deludingsome one is not love . It is catering to our fleshy feelings. If there was no love for God or his creation folks would ignore the error an walk on smugly laughing.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

Hey Bill,
I'm not sure exactly what Willie is referring to, but it's certainly possible for kids to be further traumatized by having to deal with attorneys, and court, and reliving everything over and over, and then everyone in town knowing what happened to them.

I think we'd want to see the victims protected and counseled, and the perpetrator kept from harming more children. But this is pretty messy stuff... it can probably be done with all different degrees of collateral damage.

Since these are really messy and traumatic issues, I think we can all imagine how they might be handled very badly by some people.

I'm guessing Willie has just seen these messy things handled badly.

yea I have seen things go south too. I as well worked law enforcement for several years Maricopa County Sheriff's Office . It's tragic at times . One thing I realize is you can not stop someone from hurting more people without truth. Granted some tact is needed . Still the fact remains folks will continue to victimize others unless they are exposed.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Depleted]

Ha!! Checked out my wife's facebook after leaving here and this was one of the 1st things I saw! There's enough here so everyone can laugh......er get offended!

Doing theology is hard. But we here at The Babylon Bee want to make it easier than the first world in Super Mario Bros 3! In this article, we’ll briefly explain key differences between Calvinism and Arminianism, so you’ll be smart enough to blast people on your Facebook feed the next time the discussion comes up.
DEFINITIONS


Calvinism: Theological framework that centers around God’s sovereign choice in salvation. The points of Calvinism include total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, and being a condescending jerk.
Arminianism: Theology that focuses on man’s free will to choose or reject God. The five points are kinda-sorta depravity, election but not really, errybody gets some atonement, grace that looks pretty cool but you can say no if you want to, and better hang onto that salvation pretty tightly.
ORIGINS

Calvinism: Originally discovered in a remote California forest by a pipe-smoking lumberjack, Calvinism was first codified in book form by John Piper in his 1986 classic Desiring God. Piper was said to have yelled “Eureka!” and hugged his Jonathan Edwards plush doll in joy upon discovering the beauty of the doctrines of grace.
Arminianism: Grew out of the backwoods of Appalachia in the 1950s, where the Holy Ghost is active, preachers wear suits, church signs are hand-painted, and snakes are handled.
FAMOUS ADHERENTS

Calvinism: Anyone named John, that really annoying guy on your Facebook feed, the Apostle Paul.
Arminianism: Jacobus Arminius, John Wesley, Billy Graham, Satan.
PROMINENT WORKS

Calvinism: That long-winded Facebook rant your Calvinist friend goes on almost every week, Final Destination 3, the Book of Romans.
Arminianism: Back to the Future, The Matrix, Chick tracts.
HOW TO SPOT A FOLLOWER

Calvinism: Look for long, flowing beards, flannel T-shirts, and empty bottles of craft brew strewn around their location. The Calvinist can also be identified by that smug sense of superiority he carries about his person.
Arminianism: Look for an expression of concern on their face as they desperately try not to lose their salvation today. Calvary Chapel summer camp T-shirts, acoustic guitars, and Rainbow sandals are also key indicators.
So there you have it! We hope this helped you make an informed decision on which of these theological systems to choose—or is it “which of these theological systems chose you?”

Funny thing. I went on FB and found hubby shared that link.

I totally disagree that we all have beards. I work hard at avoiding a beard.

 

[Depleted]

I know that lots of Calvary Chapel people are going to the Reformed faith, even with all of their speaking out against it. If you teach verse by verse and tell people to read the Bible in context at some point the context is going to lead to the Doctrines nicknamed Calvinism/Reformed.

We just wanted a church that taught the Bible instead of message after message of how-tos.

It was kind of like watching a day of PBS fund-raising efforts. The first message was "this is the best way to...," the second contradicted the first, the third contradicted the first and second, and it just kept on going.

And then in Bible Study classes, for some strange reason, studying the Book of Romans was constantly interrupted at the same place -- halfway through Romans 8. There was usually a good excuse made, (often related to "I just discovered this super-cool book that will teach us the best way to..."), until one pastor finally admitted what his problem was. He said, "I see it says 'predestination,' but I can't possibly believe it means what it looks like it means." So, that's the problem, huh? God chooses?

We just needed a church that wanted to teach the whole of the Bible.

 

[NayborBear]

In the Bible there are verses that take about choice,about the free will of man. Why would God say such things if the choice of election had already been made?

Joshua says,
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

If the choice has been made before we reach earth why say "choose"?


Rev. says,

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Again it is shown that man has a choice,Jesus is knocking,He is calling.

Deut.,

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,...

Again,that word,choose. Choose life. How can we choose if the choice was made for us?


Romans says,

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


Ezek. says,

“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”


Is. -“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

2 Peter,

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

These verses show me that man is able to make a choice for against good and evil. That man is told to repent,to turn,to come.All of which would not be necessary if we were already elected.

This, is such a hard question to answer. The "simplest" answer for "predestination" is that one is born into a flesh body, with No memory, er memories, of that which happened "before". Dreams, however?...Aplenty! More like nightmares, at first! Also, with an ability, or inability, depending on which side of the flesh/spirit one is on, to understand, or execute "instructions,orders,commands" from ANYONE, or anything, that has "authority" over our flesh bodies. This "rebelliousness", of, or to authority, can take decades in one's "reconciling" with, or, it doesn't necessarily take that long. Which brings another set of "variables" into this equation of life in flesh. Traditions of man! Which makes void the Word of God! Which makes the "irony" of being successful in life, JUST so you can curcumsize your heart FROM the world, seem like merely so many lessons in futility. As one comes into the "realization" that "we AIN'T in kansas, anymore", so to speak. We can really see it more clearly these days, when people worship GOVERNMENT over God! (Uh oh!...I done got myself off on a tangent) Yanno?...I compare these "people of entitlement", much the same way, I "picture" the "children of Israel", when trudging through the desert, after being delivered from the pharoah! (ok, tangent over...lol).

Anyway, those of us "fortunate" to be born and not aborted by the "spiritual king herod, or pharoah", (kinda raises things to a higher level, of just who's will is being exerted here, don't it?), are hard pressed to even "pay" attention, in school, and life, in general, for that matter. They have ALL KINDS of names they come up with these days. Dreamer, ADD, and many offshoots as God makes fools out of so called "wise" men!...

Anyway...thaz my story, and, I'm stickin' to it! "Too dumb...to be scared!....Too old to run away!"

 

[followjesus]

We just wanted a church that taught the Bible instead of message after message of how-tos.

It was kind of like watching a day of PBS fund-raising efforts. The first message was "this is the best way to...," the second contradicted the first, the third contradicted the first and second, and it just kept on going.

And then in Bible Study classes, for some strange reason, studying the Book of Romans was constantly interrupted at the same place -- halfway through Romans 8. There was usually a good excuse made, (often related to "I just discovered this super-cool book that will teach us the best way to..."), until one pastor finally admitted what his problem was. He said, "I see it says 'predestination,' but I can't possibly believe it means what it looks like it means." So, that's the problem, huh? God chooses?

We just needed a church that wanted to teach the whole of the Bible.

"We just needed a church that wanted to teach the whole of the Bible."


amen

 

[Depleted]

Calvinism was really difficult for me to understand. It took me months to get what they're saying. So if you don't get Arminianism it's understandable.

We believe the same thing.......we're saved by Grace through Faith. It's how God that truth is applied where we differ. We still believe in God's Sovereignty. He sets the plan of salvation, we had nothing to do with it. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were the ones that made the blueprint. When the two sides read the blueprints, there is something wrong with our eyesight, perception, whatever because we don't see things alike.

We get to act on our faith as we're saved by grace through faith and you don't. I guess your faith comes afterwards because you have to be born again first. While I believe the gospel by faith and am born again. You believe that man is so depraved that he can't respond to God. I believe that man can respond to God even though he's depraved.

And yes, God said by grace through faith. So yeah, it's my faith, not yours. God gives each one of us faith to believe, but it's our very own. That's how your faith is accounted as righteousness for you and not for me.

So at the end of the day, do I love God and believe I'm saved by grace through faith? Do you? Yes, I believe we do, but God knows for sure. Is this something that should separate us? I believe that we can be saved in spite of what our doctrinal accuracies or errors are. It's truly how we live out our life that determines if we truly have faith. If the Holy Spirit is within us we will produce the fruits of the Spirit and we will walk in obedience. We cannot, but do the works of God and produce the fruit of righteousness.

Why is it that I can accept you have background in Reformed Theology and Arminianism, but you can't accept the same about me?

I'm sorry. I don't want to keep responding to people who are so cocky they keep telling me what I believe even after telling them multiple times I don't believe that.

This is the equivalent of your conversation with me.

You: The grass is green.

Me: Yup.

You: I know you don't believe grass is green, but it is.

Me: I just said the grass being green.

You: Well, I guess you don't have the right background and the years of training I have to know the grass is green, so you don't think the grass is green.

Ad nausea.

How long do you think is the right amount of time to give up on that nonsensical conversation? And did you ever plan on treating me like I'm older than 6?

 

[Depleted]

Why sure it does saint, when the Lord does something that doesn't fit the pigeon hole we put him in ....we might want to tend to ignore it....or worse yet....say it was the other guy

But giving yourself a label isn't pigeonholing God. It's closer to pigeonholing yourself. And even there, it really isn't.

I'm Reformed, but not a cessationist. Sure beats giving you a twelve-page paper on what I am just to avoid saying those six words. And God hasn't gotten stuck in a box over it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are not going to minister in children's church any time soon. How do you know that the urchins that raise their hands are not elect and simply reacting according to Gods plan of predestination?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wifey and I can't have kids, but if we did have kids, ye blokes sure wouldn't teach them. I know Brother P4T's theology and trust him enough to have him teach them.

I've heard of the VBS' around here and all the kiddies they talk into being baptized only to not hold on.

Around here, the free will believers are having 'revival' at every whip-stitch and they might get 2-3 three 'saved', only for them to not hold on either. They want to stir their emotions, to get them to elicit a 'decision' from them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

But God doesn't need to have a person to spread the Gospel.

Sissy, this is soooo anti-Sola Scriptura, anti-Missional, anti-scripture sufficiency.

This is hyper-Calvinist doctrine. I have a Old Regular Baptist friend who is now living in Florida due to poor health. He is moderator of the Sovereign Grace Old Regular Baptist Association(they have Primitive Baptist beliefs, btw). I was speaking with him a few days ago, and the time before that, he told me they had been working with some United Baptist churches. I asked him how that went and he said they stopped fellowship because those UB's preached that ppl must hear the gospel to be saved, which the Primitive Baptists and that ORB association believe in. He said they reject the idea that one has to hear the gospel to be saved. You are making this stance, too, I'm afraid.

God uses means to save ppl, and that means is through the gospel of the Christ as it is proclaimed by ppl. Look at these passages...

For the message of the cross(preaching and or witnessing) is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.[1 Cor. 1:18-21]

We see here ppl making choices. Those who are perishing consider the preaching of the cross foolishness. They freely choose to reject it. Those who believe it is the power of God. They freely choose to receive Him as Lord and Saviour.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.[Romans 1:16]

Again, it is the gospel that brings salvation to all who believe, and this is done through man's preaching and/or witnessing to them.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Rom. 10:14-17]

Again, the context here is the gospel being preached and/or witnessed to those who believe. It is not this "God will come to you in visions and dreams and you will know Him." I reject that mysticism. A fellow on another website said he heard reports of Christ Himself showing up in remote areas of Africa and having a revival and reaping of many souls. That's as unbiblical a stance I have ever read.


And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[Eph. 1:13]

Again, here we see hearing the message of truth, the gospel of YOUR salvation, is what is needed to save ppl.


So, Sissy, to say what you did is very unbiblical. Your beef isn't with me but God and His word.


and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [2 Tim. 3:15]

It takes the word of God to make you wise for salvation and not these mystical appearances.

 

[pottersclay]

But giving yourself a label isn't pigeonholing God. It's closer to pigeonholing yourself. And even there, it really isn't.

I'm Reformed, but not a cessationist. Sure beats giving you a twelve-page paper on what I am just to avoid saying those six words. And God hasn't gotten stuck in a box over it.

In most cases Lynn when we hold on to a theology or doctrine that defines our beliefs (other than bold biblical truth) we tend to put God in a box as we believe that the perimeter we have drawn from that theology is the only way God works.

Case in point...Peter holding on to dietary laws told the Lord not so 3 times.
Rehab ...a prostitute and liar Scripture not showing a repenting heart yet in the hall of fame.
Lot....living in sin city saved....because of a promise made to Abraham.
We have a God that makes all things possible. What is hard for him?
If we are created in his image we are all predestined.

 

[Calmador]

My understanding is, the problems that free will seem to have, come from predestination and the role that God plays.

Basically, how can a thing be free, if God knows what it will do in advance, and if God is in ultimate authority and power over it?

This is how; when you know something well enough, and you know everything effecting it, you can predict what it will do without influencing it. We do not know ourselves that well and we can't predict ourselves, so sometimes we think that the true self is random. But there is a spirit in us that God knows very well, well enough to predestine it before our life started. So when we say free will we do not mean a will that is free of everything including itself; but it is distinct from God (because God made it distinct), it is free to be itself and because of that, it is something definite, it can be predicted.

Also, how does God retain power and authority over us while giving us freedom? It is because of how power works, which God also knows completely. If we abuse our power, we will lose it, and the power will go back to God. But if we use our power well, it is because we are using our power the way God uses it -- and he gave us the power, so in effect, either we are using it cooperatively with him, or we lose it and it goes back to him; in either case it is still essentially his, because we are either his, or we are powerless.

A possible answer is that G-d merely knows what we will freely choose. He influences the world... not forces it. He is in control, not in that he forces people, but that he influences the world in such a way that the world goes about a certain way, even with our free will in tact.

G-d made the first decision regarding all existence so everything was only possible by G-d... not by our choosing it. Fundamentally, G-d has chosen... and within G-d's choice of our existence and his control... we are allowed to freely choose because G-d has chosen that we can freely choose.

 

[Calmador]

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen

Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

1 Corinthians 13:7 Love forgives everything. Love is always trusting, and always hoping, and never gives up.

Adam and Eve... Man chose to sin. God did not choose for man. Man chose to sin. If God is not direct, determinate control of man sinning, then that goes to show that God did give man free will to choose right or wrong.

If Calvinism or Calvinists claim that Adam and Eve were forced to sin... then God would be the author of evil and he would clearly not be God.

Faith is not a work, it's choice to accept God's 100% finished work on the cross. I accept that I can't do nothing to save myself... I accept that I need salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'

I agree with this. God gets no pleasure in the death of wicked ppl. However, He has not willed the salvation of all mankind either.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Atoning sacrifice is the NIV's usage of 'propitiation'. If the whole world, as in everybody who ever lived, has their sins propitiated, then God's wrath is no longer over them, and universalism reigns supreme.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen

General call vs effectual call here.

Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

Yet God hates those who commit iniquity.[Psalm 5:5] He also hates those who lie and cause strife amongst the believers.[Proverbs 6:16]

And His wrath is over those disobedient ones.[John 3:36]

1 Corinthians 13:7 Love forgives everything. Love is always trusting, and always hoping, and never gives up.

God's love is found in His Son and those who He gave to Him to redeem from the world.

Adam and Eve... Man chose to sin. God did not choose for man. Man chose to sin. If God is not direct, determinate control of man sinning, then that goes to show that God did give man free will to choose right or wrong.

God gave man this ability, but that was lost in the fall, and we, being his progeny, fell with him. Our wills are now enslaved to sin and not free.[Matthew 6:24, Romans 6:6 & 6:16]

If Calvinism or Calvinists claim that Adam and Eve were forced to sin... then God would be the author of evil and he would clearly not be God.

We don't. Non-sequitor.

Faith is not a work,

It's a gift of God.[John 6:29, Romans 12:3 & Hebrews 12:2]

it's choice to accept God's 100% finished work on the cross.

Again, faith is not a choice, but a gift of God.

I accept that I can't do nothing to save myself...

I agree..

I accept that I need salvation.

I also agree...

 

[ManVsSin]

This is a discussion that will never end. People will either go with free will or election. I have good arguments from both sides, but neither side will be convinced even by scripture. At this point only God can show one what is truth yet, it's meaningless because if you are saved then it's really a debate that doesn't put your salvation on the line.

 

[SovereignGrace]

​No,we are not Israel,we are the church and they are not the same thing.God still has promises and work to do with the Jews that has nothing to do with the church.The land for instance,has nothing to do with the church.The remnant that will see the Messiah and be saved. The church has not part in these things.

Sissy, this is more hyper-dispensational error you're espousing here. The body of Christ is comprised of both believing Jews and Gentiles. These believing ones have had their hearts(in proper context, their spirits) circumcised by the Spirit. That's the context of Romans 2:28,29.

I can find nowhere where the Christ died for Israel, but Ephesians 5:25 says He gave His life for the church. Now, w/o the shedding of blood, there is no remission. The blood of bulls and goats the Jews did was not good enough to blot out Israel's sins, but the Christ's blood did. Jesus said in John 10 He had other sheep not of this sheep pen that He must bring in. These sheep are the Gentiles. He said they would be one Shepherd and one sheep pen.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is a discussion that will never end. People will either go with free will or election. I have good arguments from both sides, but neither side will be convinced even by scripture. At this point only God can show one what is truth yet, it's meaningless because if you are saved then it's really a debate that doesn't put your salvation on the line.

Actually, scripture won out. I come to see divine sovereign election all throughout the bible.