Light -> Sun in Genesis.

[oldhermit]

Ok cool that that helps my theory out a ton!
There is a solid thing between the formless Earth, and the light created on day one.

I'm still not going to take a bullet for my lil theory though.

Well, I know nothing bout the Hebrew language itself so I will have to depend upon the scholarship of others. I my search for the language use of firmament in Genesis I find the word hā-rā-qî-a‘ which is translated by Strong's as simply the "expanse of the heavens." It is the same word used in Daniel 12:3, "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

 

[Calminian]

After a careful study of biblical hebrew for the last couple years I've come to some amazing conclusions about the english text.

Light ('or) means light
Darkness (hoshek) means darkness
Day (yom) means day
Night (laylah) means night
Evening ('erev) means evening
Morning (boqer) means morning

Amazing huh?

Thus, God made light before he made certain light bearers like the sun and moon. Angels are often depicted and beings of light, and it's possible they had their origin on day 1.

 

[4enlightment]

Hmm, I always figured the Firmament was what we call Outer Space today, granting the fact the Sun and Moon and Stars were placed in the Firmament.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

There's a debate about what the scriptures were referring firmament. It could be a sphere or dome of some sort, but then it could be mentioning two types of spheres or domes; one is of the sky and the other is of the earth. He had divided the waters with one, and He had put lights in the other. Maybe that is why the confusion, it is because they are looking for it to mean one thing, but not two. And so maybe sphere is what they are suppose to be looking for.


https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/text/articles-books/seely-firmament-wtj.pdf


Heaven is often described as a "higher place", the holiest place, a Paradise, in contrast to Hell or the Underworld or the "low places", and universally or conditionally accessible by earthly beings according to various standards of divinity, goodness, piety,faith, or other virtues or right beliefs or simply the Will of God. Some believe in the possibility of a heaven on earth in a World to Come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

Like we consider heaven to be God's kingdom, but it even mentions in the scriptures that there is a third heaven and so heaven isn't what we think it to be, but it is a realm and which we live in the earthly realm that came from the earth.

Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.” ( So there must be lower heaven if God is in the highest of them all.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I figured the skydome above the face of the earth could technically be counted as the waters below the Firmament/Outer Space by reason that they are connected to the face of the earth.

I've always included the "canopy" in the firmament, as it never seemed the water vapor in the air the same as condensed waters parted to make land, or the water in God's abode, water in the canopy evaporation from terrestrial water, captive by gravity. You also look through the atmosphere to see outer space, a sort of space itself. But I doubt either of us will go to hell, for having this wrong. After all, this thread isn't about the law, yet.

 

[4enlightment]

Well, I know nothing bout the Hebrew language itself so I will have to depend upon the scholarship of others. I my search for the language use of firmament in Genesis I find the word hā-rā-qî-a‘ which is translated by Strong's as simply the "expanse of the heavens." It is the same word used in Daniel 12:3, "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

Here's a site for some more information about the firmament.
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...mament-wtj.pdf

 

[Calminian]

....6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.....8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

I think the answer is right here. The firmament is the heavens and the heavens are the firmament. They are one in the same.

The firmament is not a barrier, but rather the open expanse of heaven. The firmament is what God named, the heavens. Firmament is the thing, and heaven is the name of that thing. The firmament is not in the heavens, it is the heavens.

 

[4enlightment]

I think the answer is right here. The firmament is the heavens and the heavens are the firmament. They are one in the same.

The firmament is not a barrier, but rather the open expanse of heaven. The firmament is what God named, the heavens. Firmament is the thing, and heaven is the name of that thing. The firmament is not in the heavens, it is the heavens.

And we live on the lowest heaven.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I guess to take a little inspiration from Stilly, my model be something like this:

Heaven of Heavens
--------------------------------
Firmament
/-------Sky-------\
/------Dome------\
---Face of Earth---
Waters the Earth sits upon

Actually, I like your model fine, but fear my leanings could become a monumental controversy with CC Judaizers, "Is It Satanic Heresy to Firmament the Canopy?"

 

[Calminian]

And we live on the lowest heaven.

We, but that's beside the point. The firmament is defined in the Bible as the heavens. All that is the heavens is the firmament, and the firmament is named the heavens.

There is not canopy spoken of in scripture. Doesn't mean there wasn't one, but nothing is mentioned, and the firmament could not possibly be described as such. The firmament of Gen. 1 is heaven, if you take the text literally.

BTW, firmament is a transliteration of latin, and a very bad translation. All modern translations translate the raqiya' as an expanse, or something of that nature.

 

[oldhermit]

Here's a site for some more information about the firmament.
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...mament-wtj.pdf

Thanks for the link. I will certainly give it some time. What I see in the first mention of firmament in verse six seems to agree with the idea of a solid construct because it is separating the waters of the earth thus the firmament here would be dry land. In verse 14 there was created a "firmament" in the heavens and the word here is raqia rather than hā-rā-qî-a‘ as in verse seven. Both words seem to have the exact lexical definition. It looks to me like the term firmament is simply a word that represents a division of a thing and could relate to anything that serves to divide one thing from another.

 

[4enlightment]

We, but that's beside the point. The firmament is defined in the Bible as the heavens. All that is the heavens is the firmament, and the firmament is named the heavens.

There is not canopy spoken of in scripture. Doesn't mean there wasn't one, but nothing is mentioned, and the firmament could not possibly be described as such. The firmament of Gen. 1 is heaven, if you take the text literally.

BTW, firmament is a transliteration of latin, and a very bad translation. All modern translations translate the raqiya' as an expanse, or something of that nature.

And which heaven is that? Do you know that the scriptures mentions more than one heaven.

 

[Calminian]

Thanks for the link. I will certainly give it some time. What I see in the first mention of firmament in verse six seems to agree with the idea of a solid construct because it is separating the waters of the earth thus the firmament here would be dry land. In verse 14 there was created a "firmament" in the heavens and the word here is raqia rather than hā-rā-qî-a‘ as in verse seven. Both words seem to have the exact lexical definition. It looks to me like the term firmament is simply a word that represents a division of a thing and could relate to anything that serves to divide one thing from another.

Firmness is not implied in the term raqiya', just as firmness is not implied in the term heaven. shamiym (heaven) = raqiya', and raqiya' = shamiym (heaven). There are few occurrences of the term raqiya' in the Bible, but we have an abundance occurrences of heaven, and can use those to discern the nature of the raqiya'.

Here's an article that gets into it pretty good, and dissolves the notion of a solid barrier.

Does Genesis teach solid-dome cosmology?

 

[Calminian]

And which heaven is that? Do you know that the scriptures mentions more than one heaven.

Yes, and the raqiya' is defined as the heavens (plural). It would be just as correct to say there are 3 levels of the firmament.

Again, the text defines the heavens as the firmament. They are one in the same.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I've always included the "canopy" in the firmament, as it never seemed the water vapor in the air the same as condensed waters parted to make land, or the water in God's abode, water in the canopy evaporation from terrestrial water, captive by gravity. You also look through the atmosphere to see outer space, a sort of space itself. But I doubt either of us will go to hell, for having this wrong. After all, this thread isn't about the law, yet.

True that last part indeed. It is something of a "Safe debate" in my opinion since at the end of all days it doesn't matter too much seeing as the earth shall be dissolved by fire and the heavens shall catch fire.

In regards to the Firmament, my emphasis would be on the fact the Firmament divides waters above and waters below. Plus the other goodly scriptures provided which imply a Heaven above the heavens of the Firmament.

As far as gravity goes, personally I do not believe in the unproven Theory of Gravity. One could counter the Gravity Theory simply by stating the waters of the air have a mass however slight it may be that keeps denser objects from floating away. We can also observe this with some simple experiments to water and air. For instance the famous bread experiment where a flat slice of bread will float, a slice of bread of the same weight when balled up shall sink in water. We can see that birds are able to defy the theory of gravity along with much heavier airplanes due to their wings adding surface area to provide lift. Were gravity to actually exist, this would not be possible as the mass of the earth is so immense it would force all the fowl of the air right back to earth.

 

[oldhermit]

Firmness is not implied in the term raqiya', just as firmness is not implied in the term heaven. shamiym (heaven) = raqiya', and raqiya' = shamiym (heaven). There are few occurrences of the term raqiya' in the Bible, but we have an abundance occurrences of heaven, and can use those to discern the nature of the raqiya'.

Here's an article that gets into it pretty good, and dissolves the notion of a solid barrier.

Does Genesis teach solid-dome cosmology?

Well, after re reading the text and looking at what I wrote on the last post, I will have to admit I did not think that through very well. The first firmament that is mentioned seems to simply refer to a separation of the waters with one part designated as "heaven" which probably refers to the troposphere which extends to as much as 13 miles above the earth.

 

[JesusIsAll]

As far as gravity goes, personally I do not believe in the unproven Theory of Gravity.

Now, now, my scientifically challenged good fellow, gravity is demonstrably the attraction between masses, and is even exactly quantifiable as a force.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Now, now, my scientifically challenged good fellow, gravity is demonstrably the attraction between masses, and is even exactly quantifiable as a force.

Ah but gravity is still a Theory not a Law, therefore its all up for scientific debate lol.

And indeed if Gravity by its theory is attraction between masses, the Earth's mass is several times that of a bird. By that reasoning birds should not be able get very far off the earth. Which leads me to conclude Sir Newton was incorrect about Gravity and that it does not exist.

 

[Calminian]

Well, after re reading the text and looking at what I wrote on the last post, I will have to admit I did not think that through very well. The first firmament that is mentioned seems to simply refer to a separation of the waters with one part designated as "heaven" which probably refers to the troposphere which extends to as much as 13 miles above the earth.

Well let me just take you a bit further. Most translations will define raqiya' as expanse rather than firmament which implies a firm barrier. I would submit that what's really happened was God divided waters by an expanse of space, not a barrier. The implication is He put distance between the 2 halves.

And it gets more complicated when you consider that this expanse is named, heaven and that it contains not only birds and clouds but the sun moon and stars.

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night...

The expanse of day 2 was actually the expansion of the cosmos, not just the troposphere. If the expanse is only atmospheric in scope, then the sun moon and stars are not really in it.

This is why virtually all creationists have moved away from the canopy theory, and toward Russell Humphrey's exegesis of the text. Humphrey's is currently at ICR, but I don't know of any creationists sticking with the canopy theory. Henry Morris first conceived it (the greatest creationist that ever lived), but I think he got this one wrong.

 

[1still_waters]

It really is full of typology if you think about it.

Light exists with God on the other side of the firmament.
A firmament separates God and man.
God sends his light into their existence to light and guide them.

It's all a type though.
Yes Jesus=light maybe.
But Jesus isn't created.
He has always existed.

 

[4enlightment]

Well let me just take you a bit further. Most translations will define raqiya' as expanse rather than firmament which implies a firm barrier. I would submit that what's really happened was God divided waters by an expanse of space, not a barrier. The implication is He put distance between the 2 halves.

And it gets more complicated when you consider that this expanse is named, heaven and that it contains not only birds and clouds but the sun moon and stars.

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night...

The expanse of day 2 was actually the expansion of the cosmos, not just the troposphere. If the expanse is only atmospheric in scope, then the sun moon and stars are not really in it.

This is why virtually all creationists have moved away from the canopy theory, and toward Russell Humphrey's exegesis of the text. Humphrey's is currently at ICR, but I don't know of any creationists sticking with the canopy theory. Henry Morris first conceived it (the greatest creationist that ever lived), but I think he got this one wrong.

So this barrier of yours separates the water? Because in order to separate something, they must of have been joined together at one time, and so it must be referring to the same element, and which it is water, not no cosmo water, but just plain water. And so we have water that is floating above us? This is why the atheist has so much ammo against believers, because of their understanding of scriptures.