LOGIC

[eternally-gratefull]

Jas 5:19Brethren, if any of you ******do err from the truth*****, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1. They are sinners. Not saved by grace, thus they are still dead in sin.
2. They heard the word of truth, but have erred in truth


You have not proved they were ever saved to begin with..

NKJV
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a sou from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

[soldierofchrist4ever24]

'God won't leave me, but I can leave God'


Many many christians here, believe this statement. I don't want to attack anyone personally, but I do want to challenge them to think about this statement logically.

First logical problem: If God won't leave you, then He will be staying with you, in the process of you leaving Him!

Second- The Holy Spirit indwells someone at salvation. How can they 'leave' something INSIDE them.


If I have had something put inside me, I can't 'leave' that. It could be surgically removed by someone else.. but I can't just 'walk away' from it.


So.. 'God won't leave me, but I can leave God' is a fallacy-- illogical.


John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Eternal salvation.. is from God.. and belongs to Him. We don't own our eternal salvation. It isn't ours to just take or leave once we have already accepted Christ.

Nice Ephesians1:13 went straight to my head after reading this

in Christ
brother travis

 

[cfultz3]

1. They are sinners. Not saved by grace, thus they are still dead in sin.
2. They heard the word of truth, but have erred in truth


You have not proved they were ever saved to begin with..

NKJV
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a sou from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

31 And the Lord said,[c] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”
33 But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”
34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”


The word means to turn back. Did Jesus ever condemn peter for denying him? In fact jesus asked him 3 times iof he loved him, to prove to peter he never condemned him for denying him. And told him to feed his people. And strengthn his bretheren! In fact what did Peter prove by returning? His faith NEVER FAILED, it wavered, because of fear, but it never failed.



and I give up, Jesus must be a liar

He never meant we will never die, because we can die again

He never meant we will never hunger or thirst, because evidently we will

He never meant we will live forever. he was just saying that. His promises mean nothing if we can lose salvation in any way,

Sorry, But you can twist scripture all you want. Jesus either meant every word he said, or he is a liar.

 

[cfultz3]

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[cfultz3]

Psa 119:21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
Psa 119:22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

 

[wattie]

One more thing-

Soul

This doesn't always refer to the eternal spirit inside someone that either gets saved or ends up in hell..

In some passages it refers to the 'life' of someone.. eg.. Tom has 'great spirit'
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

So when you see someone 'losing their soul' in scriptures.. alot of the time this is referring to losing their 'abundant life'.. like losing 'vitality' ... it is never about losing eternal life.

 

[cfultz3]

One more thing-

Soul

This doesn't always refer to the eternal spirit inside someone that either gets saved or ends up in hell..

In some passages it refers to the 'life' of someone.. eg.. Tom has 'great spirit'
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

So when you see someone 'losing their soul' in scriptures.. alot of the time this is referring to losing their 'abundant life'.. like losing 'vitality' ... it is never about losing eternal life.

We, inasmuch as the Trinity, have a soul, a spirit, and a flesh part of us. We are souls covered over with flesh which always returns to the dust. And God breathe into our nosterials and we became a living soul. And upon death, that spirit (breathe of life) which He breathe into us shall always return to the One who has given it. After all things have been said and done, the only thing which remains of us is us (souls). And that is why we should die to the flesh and become spiritually alive.

One only has his soul to offer. And it is one's soul which shall stand before the Lord.

 

[starfield]

Yes they will. But not because they lives in sin, but because they did not believe in the only name of Jesus with the full assurance of everything the gospel says/.

1. They did not repent
2. They were hearers and not doers of the word
3. They had no faith in Christ, just mere belief.


They did not lose salvation, if they could, we would be under law, and not grace. They never HAD SALVATION

I don't know where you get the idea that sin does not lead to eternal damnation. Sin is rebellion against the Almighty God.
Unbelief in itself is the root of sin, it hardens and defiles the heart, it leavens sin like yeast leavens dough, and makes one gloss over the seriousness of sin.
People go to Hell, not simply because they lack faith in God, but because they are guilty of sin as well. Jesus Christ came to expiate sin and its guilt yet some reject His payment and keep on carrying the guilt and strongholds of sin as a disease, so they will pay for their sins in eternity. Only through His blood can one be delivered from the grip, guilt, and condemnation of sin.
Rom 6:23- For the wages of sin is death [eternal death]; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It didn't say "for the wages of unbelief".
Yes, the bible says all sins will be forgiven men but it does not mean everyone in the world is automatically forgiven. God forgives those who acknowledge their sins and ask for forgiveness.

 

[Grandpa]

You are only giving part of the picture not the full picture. What these texts and the ones that I have quoted reveal is that God has done everything He can for our salvation. If a person does not go to heaven it will be their own fault, if a person loses their salvation it will be their own fault. Study the sanctuary will reveal OSAS to be false.

Oh, Lao that's sad. Do you really believe that?

You think that after the Lord has given us salvation He just walks away and says good luck? You think He would leave such an important thing as Salvation to a bunch of dummies like you and me??

No Lao, that's not what happens. The Lord Leads us. He has given us Love that causes us to follow Him. Where else could we possibly go? Once a person knows the Truth and has Love in their heart its over, they are the Lords.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Oooh. That verse 28's a good one!!!

 

[Laodicea]

Satan was once the highest angel in heaven yet was kicked out with his followers because of sin, Adam & Eve lived in paradise in the garden of Eden yet were kicked out because of sin. Any who think they lose salvation are deceiving themselves.
Romans 11:22 KJV
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Laodicea]

Oh, Lao that's sad. Do you really believe that?

You think that after the Lord has given us salvation He just walks away and says good luck? You think He would leave such an important thing as Salvation to a bunch of dummies like you and me??

No Lao, that's not what happens. The Lord Leads us. He has given us Love that causes us to follow Him. Where else could we possibly go? Once a person knows the Truth and has Love in their heart its over, they are the Lords.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Oooh. That verse 28's a good one!!!

If we turn away from God how can we be saved?
Ezekiel 18:24 KJV
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Why don't you address the texts we put up rather than putting on the same verses all the time?

 

[Laodicea]

Satan was once the highest angel in heaven yet was kicked out with his followers because of sin, Adam & Eve lived in paradise in the garden of Eden yet were kicked out because of sin. Any who think they can't lose salvation are deceiving themselves.
Romans 11:22 KJV
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I meant to put can't lose salvation

 

[Grandpa]

Satan was once the highest angel in heaven yet was kicked out with his followers because of sin, Adam & Eve lived in paradise in the garden of Eden yet were kicked out because of sin. Any who think they lose salvation are deceiving themselves.
Romans 11:22 KJV
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Well I agree with your last sentence.

Hebrews 12:1-2
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Someone who is saved by the Lord Jesus knows where to Look. They know where to go for answers. Its always to Jesus Christ. He is the Author of our Salvation. He is the Finisher of our Salvation. Love that He has given us causes us to keep our eyes on Him.

 

[Laodicea]

Well I agree with your last sentence.

Hebrews 12:1-2
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Someone who is saved by the Lord Jesus knows where to Look. They know where to go for answers. Its always to Jesus Christ. He is the Author of our Salvation. He is the Finisher of our Salvation. Love that He has given us causes us to keep our eyes on Him.

I made a mistake with the last sentence and changed it.

 

[Grandpa]

If we turn away from God how can we be saved?
Ezekiel 18:24 KJV
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Why don't you address the texts we put up rather than putting on the same verses all the time?

Address the texts? they don't say what you think they say.

A man is not saved by his own works. period.

A man is righteous, and saved, only by the blood of Jesus.

Ezekiel 18:24 is speaking of the Law.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:10 is saying the same thing as Ezekiel 18:24

 

[Grandpa]

I made a mistake with the last sentence and changed it.

LOL. I didn't think it would be that easy...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know where you get the idea that sin does not lead to eternal damnation. Sin is rebellion against the Almighty God.
Unbelief in itself is the root of sin, it hardens and defiles the heart, it leavens sin like yeast leavens dough, and makes one gloss over the seriousness of sin.
People go to Hell, not simply because they lack faith in God, but because they are guilty of sin as well. Jesus Christ came to expiate sin and its guilt yet some reject His payment and keep on carrying the guilt and strongholds of sin as a disease, so they will pay for their sins in eternity. Only through His blood can one be delivered from the grip, guilt, and condemnation of sin.
Rom 6:23- For the wages of sin is death [eternal death]; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It didn't say "for the wages of unbelief".
Yes, the bible says all sins will be forgiven men but it does not mean everyone in the world is automatically forgiven. God forgives those who acknowledge their sins and ask for forgiveness.

1. you were born dead
2. You were born condemned
3. You deserved condemnation before you even commited you first sin, because you were in adam.

You have two choices, be in adam, and suffer Gods wrath, or be in christ, and be born again.

Your right, Only through the blood can one be forgiven, but you miss one major point, If your sin had not already been taken care of on the cross. Salvation could not be offered to you, Christ died 2000 years ago, he either took your sin, and thus can offer forgiveness, or he did not, and you have no hope.

Again, Jesus said, He who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, He who does NOT BELIEVED is CONDEMNED ALREADY, why? because they sinned? No, Because they HAVE NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

Your argument is with Jesus, not me.

 

[Laodicea]

Address the texts? they don't say what you think they say.

A man is not saved by his own works. period.

A man is righteous, and saved, only by the blood of Jesus.

Ezekiel 18:24 is speaking of the Law.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:10 is saying the same thing as Ezekiel 18:24

I have never said we are saved by our own works. We can never be saved by our own works it is impossible and James 2:10 does not say the same thing as Ezekiel 18:24. Ezekiel says that when the righteous turn away they will die and their righteousness will not be mentioned.

 

[starfield]

1. you were born dead
2. You were born condemned
3. You deserved condemnation before you even commited you first sin, because you were in adam.

You have two choices, be in adam, and suffer Gods wrath, or be in christ, and be born again.

Yes, we are born in sin by one man's sin, but after our new birth we are called to be sanctified and conformed to the likeness of Christ, we are to put off the old nature and walk according to the Spirit.

Your right, Only through the blood can one be forgiven, but you miss one major point, If your sin had not already been taken care of on the cross. Salvation could not be offered to you, Christ died 2000 years ago, he either took your sin, and thus can offer forgiveness, or he did not, and you have no hope.

Sins have been taken care of on the cross that is why we have the privilege to be forgiven if we confess our sins, ask for forgiveness and believe in the Lord Jesus.

Again, Jesus said, He who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, He who does NOT BELIEVED is CONDEMNED ALREADY, why? because they sinned? No, Because they HAVE NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

Your argument is with Jesus, not me.

So sin does not bring eternal condemnation, eh? Then why did Jesus say this:
Matt 12:36-37
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Idle words bring eternal condemnation.


Romans 1:28-32
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
All the above of sins bring eternal condemnation.

Unbelief in itself is a sin.