LOGIC

[cfultz3]

Sheep in a flock....this is really easy for me... but if you never been a herdsman/shepherdess it might be a little tougher for you'
In very simple terms... the flock is not a bunch of cute little pets... each individual has a purpose and withthat purpose there are expectations of the Herdsman... these purposes, expectatins and performance evaluations are at the discression of the shepherd alone. A ram who look good... might not produce good offspring... thus he is culled, a promissing fiber ewe... may not produce good fiber but might them be an outstanding foster mother, some lambs are strictly designated for slaughter...understand? Can this anology of the shepherd with sheep be compared with the unprofitable servant.... with the understanding... you only get into the flock... by one gate????

Salvation is through faith only in the Christ. But to say that one cannot wander off is to say that God is a dictator who has taken any choice away from you once you have decided to call Him Lord. And if there is no choice in the matter, then you have become a prisoner and the love which is to be freely given is overtaken by the resentment one would hold against a totalitarian. In Him, we find freedom to move about in the Light, and by Him we are told many will seek but not many will obtain.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Salvation is through faith only in the Christ. But to say that one cannot wander off is to say that God is a dictator who has taken any choice away from you once you have decided to call Him Lord. And if there is no choice in the matter, then you have become a prisoner and the love which is to be freely given is overtaken by the resentment one would hold against a totalitarian. In Him, we find freedom to move about in the Light, and by Him we are told many will seek but not many will obtain.

Obedience is given. Why? God has changed the nature of the person. I would be careful about calling God a dictator if I were you...

 

[Katy-follower]

So true of His sheep who remain in His flock

There is no "but" in that verse I quoted. You can't add something to that verse that is not there. He said He gives us eternal life the moment we are saved and we shall never perish. No buts to add on to that.

A person that is genuinely saved does not return to a heart of disbelief. If anything that is evidence they never were saved to begin with. A "christian" turned mormon, turned atheist is an example of someone that was always lost and never had the truth. A blind man that is given sight does not return to his blindness.

And here I am responding to another of these ongoing threads that goes round and round in circles. Soon will come dizziness

 

[Katy-follower]

Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe.

John 3:3: "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Titus 3:5: "..not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

For a Christian to lose their salvation, they would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

We are not unborn, reborn, unborn.... more dizziness

 

[BarlyGurl]

Salvation is through faith only in the Christ. But to say that one cannot wander off is to say that God is a dictator who has taken any choice away from you once you have decided to call Him Lord. And if there is no choice in the matter, then you have become a prisoner and the love which is to be freely given is overtaken by the resentment one would hold against a totalitarian. In Him, we find freedom to move about in the Light, and by Him we are told many will seek but not many will obtain.

okay... by now... I just think you are stupid... and clearly uninterested in a conversation because a two-way dialogue requires some consideration before reply... you are just rapid firing responses to argue your own agenda... have a nice day.

 

[Grandpa]

Ezekiel 18:24 is telling us that we can lose our salvation by our own wrong choices. Even though it appears you are trying to make it say something else, that is what it is saying.

Well, we obviously have differing opinions on what Ezekiel 18:24 is saying...

But what about John 10:27-29 And Romans 8:27-39??? What do those verses say to you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.....So true of His sheep who remain in His flock.

Even true of the sheep that wander away, for God promised he would leave his flock and go get the lost sheep and bring them back..Why is it you keep ignoring part of the passage? is God going to fail to do what he promised to do?

But we cannot forget about other verses which say that we are to finish the race faithfully (the state of remaining true to the one we profess).

Since God never calls salvation a race to get it, We can not use this to show we can lose salvation if we do not run the race faithfully. We run the race to recieve reward, Because you always run the race in order to get a prise, and not lose out. No one runs to get 4th place. we run to try to get the first three spots so we can be honored for our good hard work. which we do when we glorify God. We are not running to earn salvation, or else salvation would not be of grace, it would have to be earned.

Though He remains faithful, we are given examples of those who were in fellowship with Him and then lost that relationship because of their actions. Inasmuch as one can turn from unbelief to belief, so to can one turn from belief to unbelief. Inasmuch as one can turn from the darkness to the Light, so too can one turn from the Light to the darkness. God seeks willful hearts, not robots.

If one would turn to unbelief, they would be against Christ, or an antichrist. How many times do you have to be shown where John says they were never of us, for if they had been of us (true believers) they never would have left (in unbelief)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation is through faith only in the Christ. But to say that one cannot wander off is to say that God is a dictator who has taken any choice away from you once you have decided to call Him Lord. And if there is no choice in the matter, then you have become a prisoner and the love which is to be freely given is overtaken by the resentment one would hold against a totalitarian. In Him, we find freedom to move about in the Light, and by Him we are told many will seek but not many will obtain.

Again, If one wanders, Christ promised to leave the flock to get the one who left, and bring him back.

It is not us, It is always God. You also fail to realize someone who has truly repented and has true faith would NEVER cange there mind about Christ and his love, yes, they may become prodigal children, but we see where that gets us, We lose everything, and this losing everything causes us to come back. It did me, God waited till the right time, when I was ready to give up and looking to end it all, when a friend I led to Christ who had not called me in over 5 years suddenly out of the blue called me and led me back to church where I belonged.

God does not remove free will, he uses our free will, and our knowledge of him to realise we have done wrong, and made a huge mistake, and bring us back to his house.

 

[Grandpa]

Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe.

John 3:3: "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Titus 3:5: "..not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

For a Christian to lose their salvation, they would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

We are not unborn, reborn, unborn.... more dizziness

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

John 6: 35-40: And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Grandpa]

as of late when i hear verses similiar to that ezekiel verse being quoted its out of context
and is empty of the desired message God was giving which was restoration and blessing.
So much lately of grabbing sentences to push a point. There should be concern for Gods honor
when using His word. Maybe even a good fearful Respect.

I just want people to see what I see. The Love of God.

I don't think there is any disrespect in that.

Perhaps I push a little harder than I should at times...

 

[cfultz3]

Again, If one wanders, Christ promised to leave the flock to get the one who left, and bring him back. Yes He does promise to leave the flock and go and search for that one. But as the prodical son, he has to return willfully in remorse. It was only then that the son was found to be ALIVE AGAIN and not lost.

It is not us, It is always God. You also fail to realize someone who has truly repented and has true faith would NEVER cange there mind about Christ and his love, yes, they may become prodigal children, but we see where that gets us, We lose everything, and this losing everything causes us to come back. Sticking to the same guns we had before, and what of the swine or the dog? Didn't Adam and Eve, even Satan and the fallen angels realize what they lost? Were they able to return to what they lost?

It did me, God waited till the right time, when I was ready to give up and looking to end it all, when a friend I led to Christ who had not called me in over 5 years suddenly out of the blue called me and led me back to church where I belonged. I am very happy you repented, I really am. But some do not repent.

God does not remove free will, he uses our free will, and our knowledge of him to realise we have done wrong, and made a huge mistake, and bring us back to his house. And sometimes the fornicator does not wish to return to the separation (church).

Eg,

You said, 'God does not remove freewill', and that is true. If God does not remove it, then does not a person still have that freewill to abandon His walk? If a person still has freewill, then what is wrong in telling a person not to choose to walk off from that path he is being led on? Yes?

 

[cfultz3]

okay... by now... I just think you are stupid... and clearly uninterested in a conversation because a two-way dialogue requires some consideration before reply... you are just rapid firing responses to argue your own agenda... have a nice day.

Aren't we all here for the same purpose? And because I responded with something you do not agree with, I am stupid and non-considerate, and have an agenda.......okie doikie.....

 

[starfield]

Yes, you are right, But who does the bible say sanctifies us? is it us or is it Christ?

Heb 13:12- Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

If Christ did not die for your sin, you have no hope of salvation, that is plain and simple. If he did not pay the price of redemption already for us, we have no hope because we will be forced to pay the price ourselves. If you do not like that, that is tough, and you do not understand the legal system very well. And remember, Gods legal system is perfect. That is why he is perfectly right to condemn us,

Of course Jesus paid the price of redemption but does that mean the whole world was automatically redeemed when He died? No. God has given everyone the opportunity to receive the gift of salvation and eternal life however it's up to the sinner to respond to the call of salvation in order to enjoy God's love and blessings attached to being a child of God. Rev 3:20- Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Luke 9:62- And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.That is very self-explanatory. Lukewarmness, spiritual laxity, going back to your former lifestyle after salvation will disqualify you from entering the Kingdom of God.

As Christians, we must strive to overcome worldly allurement and surrender our lives to God in every situation of life. Remember that "whosoever will save his life shall lose it". If you'd rather satisfy your flesh and gain the world than take up your cross even as Christ bore the cross, you will lose your life.

Heb 5:9- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
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Yes they do, But Christ paid for those sins also. If he did not, and you ever said an idle word, you would be eternally condemned right then and there with no hope of ever being saved again, This is what redemption means.

Redemption is freedom from the stronghold of sin, not freedom to sin. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:18).

 

[cfultz3]

Obedience is given. Why? God has changed the nature of the person. I would be careful about calling God a dictator if I were you...

Where did I call him a dictator?

 

[cfultz3]

lol

I sure woke you all up.

Good morning

 

[cfultz3]

There is no "but" in that verse I quoted. You can't add something to that verse that is not there. He said He gives us eternal life the moment we are saved and we shall never perish. No buts to add on to that.

A person that is genuinely saved does not return to a heart of disbelief. If anything that is evidence they never were saved to begin with. A "christian" turned mormon, turned atheist is an example of someone that was always lost and never had the truth. A blind man that is given sight does not return to his blindness.

And here I am responding to another of these ongoing threads that goes round and round in circles. Soon will come dizziness

Ok...wanders off then.

Are they who are in Christ able to live as they please?

What happens when they become dead in their faith?

Are not the fornicators (unrependant sinners) thrown out of the Body of Christ (church)?

What if that son does not return in repentance but stayed as a servant of the swines?

What if the Son said one cheated in their marriage? Will not the adulterous one be chopped off?

What if the Son is not appeased while He is yet a little kindled?

What if one does not return to his first love?

 

[cfultz3]

Aren't we all here for the same purpose? And because I responded with something you do not agree with, I am stupid and non-considerate, and have an agenda.......okie doikie.....

Barley,

I promised I read what you said. My response was to what you said.

 

[wattie]

Eg,

You said, 'God does not remove freewill', and that is true. If God does not remove it, then does not a person still have that freewill to abandon His walk? If a person still has freewill, then what is wrong in telling a person not to choose to walk off from that path he is being led on? Yes?

Your child has a gun to their head.. and is about to commit suicide. What is the loving thing to do?

Let them blow themself away.. or REMOVE THE MEANS BY WHICH IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO BLOW THEMSELVES AWAY.

This is real love-- not a Hitler style God. It is God who knows better than us about what is best for us.. and will remove our ability to terminate, because that is preserving our life!


Other thing is-- I do have a problem with saying that a saved person won't fail.. or won't walk away..

A saved person can't walk away in terms of lose salvation walk away... but..

Every saved person still has the free will ability to turn to old ways. That is not removed.

So in this I probably disagree with some. Of course there will be fruit from salvation as the natural result of being converted.. but this doesn't mean they won't ever go wayward.

It's the same logical problem I had with saying it is only those who are faithful after salvation who are in heaven. It's also an inconsistency to say that a saved person will never fall..

Both end up having only christians who have done good works most of their life in heaven- therefore both are 'works based'.

'He who endures to the end will be saved'-- the context of this verse is not about only saved peple who endure receiving eternal life.. but is about christians being delivered from harsh times and trials.

The word 'save' isn't always about ETERNAL salvation.. it may be.. but not always.

 

[wattie]

Heb 13:12- Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Of course Jesus paid the price of redemption but does that mean the whole world was automatically redeemed when He died? No. God has given everyone the opportunity to receive the gift of salvation and eternal life however it's up to the sinner to respond to the call of salvation in order to enjoy God's love and blessings attached to being a child of God. Rev 3:20- Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Luke 9:62- And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.That is very self-explanatory. Lukewarmness, spiritual laxity, going back to your former lifestyle after salvation will disqualify you from entering the Kingdom of God.

As Christians, we must strive to overcome worldly allurement and surrender our lives to God in every situation of life. Remember that "whosoever will save his life shall lose it". If you'd rather satisfy your flesh and gain the world than take up your cross even as Christ bore the cross, you will lose your life.

Heb 5:9- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Redemption is freedom from the stronghold of sin, not freedom to sin. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:18).

I am not sure who in this thread actually believes in 'universal salvation'

Because universal salvation is salvation given to all regardless of whether they asked for it or not. It's not a christian concept.. more like Bahai faith.

I don't think anyone in this thread believes that.

I personally believe.. some one needs to 'receive' Christ for eternal salvation. They get convicted.. and respond to that conviction by putting the faith in Jesus.

Once this is done.. they are sealed unto the day of redemption. Saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Born again. Not condemned. Delivered- sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Universal salvation has been mentioned a few times in this thread.. but I don't think anyone actually believes that in this thread.