Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[Dan_473]

Are you familiar with type and anti-type?

The tassels or fringes were a physical type for a people without access to the Holy Spirit as a reminder.

I'm sort of familiar with types... this is kind of what I meant by 'following it loosely'... not doing it physically, but spiritually... following the law spiritually, isn't that what all christians are doing?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you treat all the lost the same way so they will see the truth in Jesus Christ. Loving them is the very first step and that is very good. But like Paul describes of himself and how he treated them in love as you said you do, reaches further by following his example. According to scripture there is no indication that we should have the attitude of "whatever seems to work is good enough." Follow Paul's example which He also instructs us to do.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

That makes sense.

In pauls day, all jews knew were the laws in jerusalem. It is all they knew most of their life.

Your going to be so arrogant as to say jews do this today? (well maybe in jerusalem)

Again, Would you do catholic sacraments to win a sacrament. Do satan worship to win over a pagan. Do islamic worship and tradition to win over a muslim. Or any other religion.

Your problem is you love the law. and think it makes you so holy.. So you will make any excuse you have to follow it.

I would love t know if you would do all the rest of the things for those people. or is it just jews?

 

[sparty-g]

That's a great question.

Stan Telchin, a Hebrew Christian author of Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism IS NOT Christianity and Abandoned looked into that very question: How are Jews being reached with the Gospel? What are Jews responding to?

Christian friends, Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit, and A believing relative came in at spots 1, 2, and 3, with 28%, 11%, and 10%, respectively.

Without typing the whole table from page 105 of 'Messianic Judaism IS NOT Christianity', suffice it to say that 'Jewish Roots' came in next to last on the list for reaching Jews with the Gospel, with less than 1% being influenced.

From page 103-104 of the same title:

As one who holds an international office and is deeply involved with the Messianic movement, Sedaca has made some powerful statements. He clearly suggests that Messianic congregations have not been effective in reaching Jewish people with the Gospel. They have allowed their desire to receive favor from the Jewish community to dull their obedience to God's Great Commission. Their hearts are divided.


​

When it comes to Jews actually deciding to accept Christ, page 106 in the same title reads thus:

In 1996, I [Stan Telchin] contacted a thousand Jewish believers and asked them to answer this question: "What was the one (or two) most important factor(s) in your coming to the Lord?"

The direct mail industry observes that when one sends out a mailing piece it is normal to receive about a one percent response. My questionnaire produced a seven percent response. Some of the responders listed more than one important factor that helped them come to the Lord. Her is what the survey revealed:

​

• 
  [*=1]Study of the Bible 39.6%
  [*=1]Testimony of believing friends 31.1%
  [*=1]Testimony of saved relatives 9.4%
  [*=1]Preaching of Gospel by minister 7.5%
  [*=1]Prayers of the saints 6.6%
  [*=1]Other 5.7%

Though this survey was modest, it again revealed the truth that "the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe, for the Jew first and also for the Gentile" (Rom. 1:16 CEV). Most often the Gospel is revealed to a person while reading Scripture. At other times it is revealed as God's witnesses share their testimony. And did you notice that none of the responders mentioned "Jewishness" as the thing that first attracted them to the Messiah, or that it was the key factor in their accepting the Lord?

​

From page 111, after several testimonies from Hebrew Christians:

Provoking Them to Jealousy
Clearly these responses reinforce our observations that different people are reached in different ways. Yet underlying almost all of the responses is the powerful truth of Paul's instructions: The Jewish people are to be "provoked to jealousy"(see Romans 11:11). Certainly the Jewish people quoted above were provoked to jealousy by what they saw in the lives of their friends and relatives, what they read in Scripture and what they heard from the pulpit.

What a clear reminder this is that it is not our ability that saves anyone. The Gospel is and always will be the power of God unto salvation for all who believe - for the Jew first and also for the Gentile (see Romans 1:16).

​

The book is full of example after example about how it's the simplicity of the Gospel that reaches people for Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles - the Gospel is the power unto salvation, not Torah observance.

-JGIG

Alright, time for some balance. DISCLAIMER: I have not read Stan Telchin's books. I would need to read his books and, specifically, examine his research methodology, surveys and results, and conclusions to have a fuller understanding of what JGIG is presenting here. However, after only examining JGIG's quotes and the conclusions JGIG is trying to draw, some things can be said.

Firstly, concerning Stan Telchin, let's not assume his work is purely objective. Most writers start off with a claim and end up with a book that supports that claim. They are often working to meet their pre-determined goal. If someone has a beef against the Messianic Jewish movement or Messianic Jewish congregations, or certain aspects thereof, then that's exactly what their book is going to end up saying. I have not read Telchin's books, but this isn't difficult to imagine. So here are some links to responses to one of his books which JGIG cites:

Irreconcilable Differences? part 1 - Jews for Jesus

DISCLAIMER: By posting a link from JFJ, I am not committing myself to agreeing to any measure of their mission or beliefs.

QUOTE: "Although Telchin repeatedly says he's not indicting the whole movement, he paints with a broad stroke, thereby giving a wide audience a distorted picture of the movement based primarily on the experiences of a few. Most of Telchin's argument is supported by anecdotes from those who've been hurt within the Messianic congregational movement."

QUOTE: "Telchin also presupposes that the majority of those in the Messianic congregational movement who use rabbinic forms are merely attempting to win the Jewish community's approval. He ignores the fact that many are actually attempting to find legitimate Jewish forms that do not contradict biblical principles."

To be fair, here is a JFJ review from a different perspective: Irreconcilable Differences? part 2 - Jews for Jesus

Secondly, just from what JGIG posted from his book, there are already indicators of what could be suspicious methodology, measurement errors, and false conclusions. As to the first question, "How are Jews being reached with the Gospel? What are Jews responding to?" -- what is the operational definition of the option labeled as "Jewish Roots"? If this is someone's own personal background, then it's very obvious why this wouldn't be high on the list. Jewish and Gentile background are not inherently things that would lead someone to the Messiah. If the Hebrew Roots / Messianic Jewish movement is meant, then it's even more understandable. This movement represents probably (and I'm estimating here) a fraction of a percent of congregations in the United States. One would expect the number of people reached by these movements would be equally low. Maybe he means something else by the term? It would be interesting to know. Either way, there are good reasons to expect it to be low on the list (explained in the next paragraph).

I have similarly informally surveyed or heard testimonies from Jewish members of the Messianic Jewish congregations that I have attended. Some of them were followers of the Messiah before attending the congregation, others after (i.e., the ministerial outreach effort to them was effective). Even these people, who choose to attend a Messianic congregation and consider themselves Torah observant, cite things like God/Christ/Holy Spirit, studying the Scriptures, testimony of believing friends and/or relatives, etc., as the primary reasons for accepting the Messiah. The reasoning is simple: They give the glory and honor to God and/or recognize those who personally reached out to them. And in their cases, things like the Jewishness of the Messiah, a Messianic congregation being a comfortable space for Jewish believers, and other similar things were often part of the ministering and outreach, and/or part of the reason they accepted the Messiah or decided to attend a Messianic congregation. Ultimately, we know it is the not us but the Spirit, but our witness and ministerial presentation is the practical point being discussed.

My point: Even people for whom these were things were part of the ministering and outreach, they are not necessarily going to list them as the most important factor that convinced them to accept the Messiah. Part of the package: yes. Most important factor cited: no, and for easily understandable reasons (especially in a survey format!). For example, someone who is presented the Jewishness of the Messiah from a friend can study the Scriptures to determine if this is indeed the truth, and then will cite "Scripture study" or "friend" as the most important factor, not "Jewish roots" or "Jewishness". If you want a better understanding of what led a Jew to the Messiah or to a Messianic congregation, you'll get a much fuller picture by talking to them, and interviews are a valid statistical methodology.

Thirdly, even Telchin admits different people are reached in different ways, so now he's talking about the practical aspect of outreach. Of course the Gospel message is the power unto salvation, as JGIG mentions. What is simply talking about Torah observance devoid of the Gospel message to a Torah observant Jew going to do? Convince them to keep doing what they are doing? Or even a secular Jew, for that matter? Convince them to start going to synagogue? The Gospel message must be the core. But let's not pretend here that things like Jewishness of the Messiah, a comfortable space for Jews to worship God in a Jewish manner, etc., are not important to some Jews. This idea that they must drop everything connected to their identity and become like the non-Jew is what holds some back from accepting the Messiah, let alone accepting what is perceived as a very foreign Messiah, under whose name their people have been persecuted or killed by non-Jewish "believers" for thousands of years.

The JFJ link above states: "Telchin fails to grasp what some in the Messianic congregational movement believe is God's mandate. Telchin would be the first to say that God wants a distinct Jewish people to exist until the end of time as a perpetual witness to His faithfulness. The question is, how will that distinction be made? The Messianic congregational movement answers by saying that to be distinct, we must live as Jews, and to some that means more than just eating bagels." AND "The job of the Messianic movement is to redeem that [Rabbinical Jewish] heritage through a biblical grid."

If you want to bring the Gospel to Jewish people, show them love and be a witness to what God has done in your life as a believer. Understanding their history, culture, concerns, fears, etc., can go a long way. Helping them recognize the Jewishness of the Messiah can be effective in connecting them to their Jewish Messiah. If you're from a Messianic congregation, letting them know a comfortable place exists for them to worship in a Jewish manner in connection to their heritage can also be an open and inviting door for them to experience the power of God through His Son. Is this necessary? No, but they can be helpful. If you want sources to help in this manner, there are books on Amazon, and Dr. Michael Brown is a leading Jewish evangelist on the topic of introducing Jews to the Messiah and answering Jewish objections to the Messiah.

And to JGIG, that's good for you that you've presented testimonials to support your view. But testimonials do not equate to truth. I can bring just as many testimonials from people who have found freedom and joy in the Messianic movement. Catholics can bring similar testimonies, etc. The imbalanced picture that you and others on this board present of Messianics being arrogant, self-righteous, unloving, or whatever you've all said so far, is a huge disservice and destructive to the body of believers. Those kinds of people exist outside of the Messianic movement, as well, and for me to make a statement about that would be equally useless. The Messianic movement includes many caring, loving people who genuinely worship God and demonstrate their love for others in meaningful and impactful ways. Your personal experiences do not dictate the truth of the matter, nor do they paint an accurate picture. My experience has been radically different and I have been involved in the movement for long enough. Likewise, my personal experiences do not dictate the truth but at least providing them helps paint a fuller picture than what you alone present. Are there problems with the Messianic movement and some people in it? Of course, but that can be said for the wider body of Christianity. And Telchin's survey results do not support your case against the Torah observant lifestyle. One is talking about outreach, the other about the lifestyle of a believer after accepting the Messiah. I don't personally witness about Torah observance to unbelievers; I save those sorts of conversations on the topic of the "Christian walk" for discussion among believers. But, unbelieving Jews are approached by those in the Messianic movement, and observe what goes on in Messianic congregations, and for some this is positively impactful.

 

[Dan_473]

I really wouldn't say follow it loosely, I mean I follow what it says.

how about we consider two drivers.

One stops at the stop sign, the other slows a little, sees there're no cars coming, and goes through. The first says she is doing what the sign says, stop. The second says she is doing what the sign says, which is to drive safely. Since no cars are coming, it is safe to drive through.

are they both doing what the sign says? would you say that one is doing what the sign says more loosely? or what way would you put it?

 

[john832]

how about we consider two drivers.

One stops at the stop sign, the other slows a little, sees there're no cars coming, and goes through. The first says she is doing what the sign says, stop. The second says she is doing what the sign says, which is to drive safely. Since no cars are coming, it is safe to drive through.

are they both doing what the sign says? would you say that one is doing what the sign says more loosely? or what way would you put it?

Try it some time and see what they tell you in traffic court.

 

[sparty-g]

how about we consider two drivers.

One stops at the stop sign, the other slows a little, sees there're no cars coming, and goes through. The first says she is doing what the sign says, stop. The second says she is doing what the sign says, which is to drive safely. Since no cars are coming, it is safe to drive through.

are they both doing what the sign says? would you say that one is doing what the sign says more loosely? or what way would you put it?

I'll take a shot at it...

The person who stops has done what the sign says to do and, ultimately, has obeyed the authorities who gave the sign.

The person who rolls through the sign (yields) has not done what the sign says to do and, ultimately, has not obeyed the authorities who gave the sign.

Both may have avoided a major accident, but the second person may still end up with a ticket in traffic court. There is a reason the authorities posted stop signs and not yield signs. The first person is also likely to end up in traffic court for some other traffic violation but this doesn't change the fact of the matter regarding the stop sign. They both better hope that the judge is gracious and excuses them.

Neither of these people should ignore the signs completely or else a serious accident is bound to happen at one intersection or another, possibly resulting in death.

Three comments:

1. Thankfully, we have such a merciful and gracious judge in the Messiah. Whether we "stop" or "yield," He is merciful and gracious to save.
2. Illustrations do not prove a point; they illustrate a point. Our ability to create an illustration ultimately proves nothing, including how I just framed your illustration. I also worked within your illustration, so my framing doesn't accurately portray my personal beliefs, because...
3. The illustration you presented doesn't accurately depict Christianity. The commands in the Torah-Law aren't always as black and white as a stop sign. They often bring many questions to mind about how to properly obey the Almighty who gave them. Again, thankfully we have a merciful and gracious judge who understands our heartfelt desire to seek and follow Him on the matter as we study His word, look to our Messiah, and are led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Elin]

how about we consider two drivers.

One stops at the stop sign, the other slows a little, sees there're no cars coming, and goes through. The first says she is doing what the sign says, stop. The second says she is doing what the sign says, which is to drive safely. Since no cars are coming, it is safe to drive through.

are they both doing what the sign says? would you say that one is doing what the sign says more loosely? or what way would you put it?

The cop would give one a ticket for violating the law,
while the other would get no ticket because he followed the law.

 

[sparty-g]

Note that Paul never participated in the sacrifice, and only agreed to pay for the vow to appease those who were still mixing Law with Grace in Jerusalem (all things to all people in order to win some).

...

Paul was being persecuted because he preached GRACE and righteousness apart from the Law.

Where does the book of Acts state it was an act of appeasement? And where does the book of Acts say he was being persecuted in Jerusalem for teaching grace and righteousness apart from the Torah-Law? This is what I find:

When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. -- Acts 21:20-24 (NIV)


This seems to plainly state that Paul was being persecuted for false reports that he was teaching Jews to stop observing the Torah-Law (and possibly some other unknown measure uniquely Jewish rabbinical customs), and that James' request is not for the sake of appeasement, but to definitely prove the reports to be false and demonstrate that Paul kept the Torah-Law.

 

[michael56]

Paul was being persecuted because he preached GRACE and righteousness apart from the Law.


-JGIG

That's it in a nutshell

What was the main fault the Pharisees accused Christ of? He was ignoring the law.

One of the reasons Steven was arrested, what was the charge? He was ignoring the law.

Paul said:
Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law), why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. Gal5:11

Ultimately Christ, Paul, and all the other Apostles were persecuted, and most killed because of one accusation. They ignored the law. Human nature has not changed in 2,000 years, for it cannot change.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Paul was being persecuted because he preached GRACE and righteousness apart from the Law.

-JGIG

You are absolutely right because the Jews missed that grace was there from day one. They were taught that salvation came from keeping the law where if you read the Old Testament we see that people like Moses and David knew Yeshua and that He would bring them salvation.

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Salvation NEVER came from keeping the law because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Let us keep spreading the good news and the truth.
Amen!

 

[DesiredHaven]

That's it in a nutshell

What was the main fault the Pharisees accused Christ of? He was ignoring the law.

One of the reasons Steven was arrested, what was the charge? He was ignoring the law.

Paul said:
Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law), why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. Gal5:11

Ultimately Christ, Paul, and all the other Apostles were persecuted, and most killed because of one accusation. They ignored the law. Human nature has not changed in 2,000 years, for it cannot change.

Amen to Gal5:11

Altough I am curious what verse shows Stephen was ignoring the law?

They are shown setting up false witnesses which said

Acts 16:13 And set up false witnesses,
which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law

Whereas here Stephen said to them

Acts 7:52-53 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whomye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Because it says

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

And then finally they stoned him outside the city. However I didnt catch where it was you were seeing this. I didnt with anything in Acts with Pauls false accusers either but this one is simpler and I just thought I would ask concerning Stephen

 

[michael56]

Amen to Gal5:11

Altough I am curious what verse shows Stephen was ignoring the law?

They are shown setting up false witnesses which said

Acts 16:13 And set up false witnesses,
which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law

Whereas here Stephen said to them

Acts 7:52-53 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whomye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Because it says

Acts 7:54 Whenthey heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

And then finally they stoned him outside the city. However I didnt catch where it was you were seeing this. I didnt with anything in Acts with Pauls false accusers either but this one is simpler and I just thought I would ask concerning Stephen

They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. NIV acts6:13

I accept other translations may not include the word ''law''

 

[JGIG]

Think like a Messianic Jew so you can relate to the non-Messianic Jews. And certainly don't act as if you are superior portraying an attitude of condemnation because they obey the law as they see it. That's what Paul did.

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" 1 Corinthians 9:20

The only major problem with Christians that reject the law, because they have been told that it is wrong under the New Covenant, don't have the education to properly witness to a Jew.

Um, Paul was Jewish.

Him operating within his heritage was culturally acceptable and he used the OT Scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Gentiles acting like Jews is simply offensive to Jews. Practicing Jews discourage conversion by Gentiles to Judaism (they make it difficult), and are offended when unconverted Gentiles pretend to be Israel.


Catriel’s Notebook: "Messianic Synagogues" Target Jews but Hit Christians, Some of Whom Are Converting to Judaism


-JGIG

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Um, Paul was Jewish.

Him operating within his heritage was culturally acceptable and he used the OT Scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Gentiles acting like Jews is simply offensive to Jews. Practicing Jews discourage conversion by Gentiles to Judaism (they make it difficult), and are offended when unconverted Gentiles pretend to be Israel.


Catriel’s Notebook: "Messianic Synagogues" Target Jews but Hit Christians, Some of Whom Are Converting to Judaism


-JGIG

I don't follow. The law was not given to the Jews only. The law was given to Israel if I am not mistaken and we are grafted into the vine.

 

[DesiredHaven]

They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. NIV acts6:13

I accept other translations may not include the word ''law''

How does that even answer my orginal question concerning this ?

You wrote

You said, One of the reasons Steven was arrested, what was the charge? He was ignoring the law.

I had asked,

Although I am curious what verse shows Stephen was ignoring the law?

Both your NIV (You quoted in your post) and my KJV (I quoted in mine) use the word law in those same verses, so this should be easy.

Also, see the translations below showing pretty much the same



They all have some form of the law in them see next bunch (all the same) law in those translations



They all have law in them.

What I am asking is where is Stephen guilty of doing what his false accusers state he was doing.

 

[JGIG]

So you treat all the lost the same way so they will see the truth in Jesus Christ. Loving them is the very first step and that is very good. But like Paul describes of himself and how he treated them in love as you said you do, reaches further by following his example. According to scripture there is no indication that we should have the attitude of "whatever seems to work is good enough." Follow Paul's example which He also instructs us to do.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

The Gospel, not Law-keeping, was always central to what Paul did:

16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. (from 1 Cor. 9)



-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

There is a simple answer to this question. It is priorities.
Law is given for one purpose. To enable to differentiate those who do not care about an issue and those that do. The law enables justice to distinguish between the two, and separate out the grey from the black and white.
A legalist puts the focus on the law showing the difference between people, when Jesus said it is your heart, where you are facing which matters, the law is merely a means of showing failure.

The argument on judgement day will be simple. Do you love Jesus? Did you show this love, indicating it was real in your life?

Self righteousness says I am good enough, I have earnt my salvation by how I have behaved. Its beginning is saying I am not like those sinners over there. This misses out the fundemental problem, without love we are a clanging symbol, a musical instrument without a song. I had a conversation with a church attending relative.
I said to her the essence of walking in faith was confessing ones failure, asking for forgiveness and walking in love.
For her it was hiding ones sin, and appearing to be a good and proper person. Confessing failure was a shame, and bringing dishonor because ofcourse we all know we fail. This is the self righteous argument, we are not perfect, just good enough.

Now a legalist is happy with the self righteous argument, because the failure is defined by the law, and its failures. All you need to do is behave better, not get so many black marks in your book.

But this is like a marriage where being polite to your partner defines your love, not the core of you reaching out to them.
Unfortunately those trapped in legalism have no idea what I am talking about....

 

[Dan_473]

Which means they're 'keeping' none of the Law they claim to follow. That makes them mockers of both the Law of God they pursue and mockers of His Grace, to which the Law, as it was given, drives us. And then there's the fruit . . .

-JGIG

well, right... it looks to me like the folks that self-identify as law keepers aren't really keeping the law... they say they are, so I'm trying to find out what's going on in their minds...

 

[john832]

That's it in a nutshell

What was the main fault the Pharisees accused Christ of? He was ignoring the law.

One of the reasons Steven was arrested, what was the charge? He was ignoring the law.

Paul said:
Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law), why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. Gal5:11

Ultimately Christ, Paul, and all the other Apostles were persecuted, and most killed because of one accusation. They ignored the law. Human nature has not changed in 2,000 years, for it cannot change.

So the guy who rolls right through the stop sign is the fellow that did the right thing and the guy who stopped and obeyed the law is the bad guy?

OK, speaks volumes.

 

[john832]

well, right... it looks to me like the folks that self-identify as law keepers aren't really keeping the law... they say they are, so I'm trying to find out what's going on in their minds...

What about the ones who self identify as non law keepers? That make them the good guys huh?

Charles Manson identified himself thusly. He didn't feel he had to obey the law and didn't try to.