Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
I would start with Mt 22:37-40, no mention of all the Levitical regulations, feasts, observances, etc.,
for they are all observed in obedience to only these two commands.
Oh and the idea that the Ten Commandments are contained in the Two Great Commandments is untrue?

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2Jn 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

I am assuming you are not an accountant because every time you summed up the deposits in a bank account, the balance would be zero because you disallow all the entries that are to be summed up.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63

so where in this passage does it say to fallow the law loosely (pick which parts of the law to follow and which parts not to follow)?

this passage makes it clear. you break even ONE aspect of the law. your found by the law as guilty (condemned)

so as I said, and still stand by,

if your going to follow the law. your required to follow all of it. not just certain parts. break one aspect. your guilty.
Where in the scripture does it say to disobey the Law?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Friend, what exactly are you saying here? That you agree with the accusers of the Messiah, Stephen, and Paul that they "ignored the Law"? And what do you mean by saying that the Messiah "ignored the Law"? If by "ignored the Law" you mean that He violated the Law and taught against it, you are getting into the dangerous territory of Him not qualifying as the sacrificial Lamb.

Following this train of thought is painting the Messiah as disobedient and the Pharisees as truly obedient ones. On the contrary, we find that the Messiah's charge against the Pharisees is that they weren't keeping the Law, but instead were breaking the commands of God in order to honor their own man-made regulations (cf., Matt. 15:1-9).

On the issue of Stephen, as someone else has already asked, where does the book of Acts record that Stephen was ignoring the Law? Here is what we find in Acts 6:

Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.” So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.” -- Acts 6:11-14 (NIV)

Seems like a rather straightforward narrative piece to me. These secretly persuaded men are false witnesses who bring a false testimony. The false testimony they bring is that Stephen speaks against the Temple and the Law, saying that Jesus will destroy the Temple and change the Law. If the testimony is false, then Stephen was not speaking these things. If Stephen was speaking against the Law, and saying it was changed by Jesus, then the testimony would be true. So which is it?

Let me offer a different perspective:

The Pharisees and teachers of the Law falsely accused the Messiah of violating the Law. The reality is that He kept the Law and was without sin. He only violated their misunderstanding of the Law, the fences they built around the Law, and their man-made regulations they bound upon the people. The Pharisees and teachers of the Law were the ones breaking the commands of God by putting the Law aside in order to elevate their man-made regulations. They end up putting the Messiah to death on the false charge of blasphemy. Fast forward to Stephen who, in a similar manner, is falsely accused of speaking against the Law and teaching that the Messiah would change the customs handed down from Moses. They end up stoning Stephen to death after levying this false charge. Now onto Paul, he faces similar false accusations when he visits Jerusalem, that he is teaching Jews to not be circumcised or follow their customs. He makes a public demonstration that there is no truth to the false accusations and that he himself walks in obedience to the Law. Later at the time of his incarceration and after, he is again falsely charged and the book of Acts records him defending himself three times.

So I ask in a similar way to you phrased it: 2,000 years later, are we agreeing with the false accusations of the people who killed the Messiah, Stephen, and Paul?
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sparty-g again.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
What about the ones who self identify as non law keepers? That make them the good guys huh?
in the sense that they are consistent, yes.


Charles Manson identified himself thusly. He didn't feel he had to obey the law and didn't try to.
I don't know what Manson said... post it if you got it, plzzzz..... the laws of the state of California were definitely in effect for Manson... as understood by the police and interpreted by the courts...

very different, imo, from the role of the law of Moses for the christian today...


for example, there are courts in CA that will decide if you have broken a law... not so for christians and Torah...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Where in the scripture does it say to disobey the Law?
then why are you not in jerusalem at least once a year. Why are you no longer sacrificing animals to the priest. or doing the rest of the law?

james said you break one command, your guilty of it all. So why do you ignore alot of it. and not follow it all?


as for me, I am not foolish enough to think I can keep the law. I know it still condemns me. so why would I boast of keeping the law, when I have failed. am failing, and will always fail?

My focus is in the cross and what God did for me to remove the curse of the law from me, and taking that love and giving it to others. SHould this not be your focus also?



 
S

sparty-g

Guest
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sparty-g again.
I don't know what this means. Are you talking to me? Is there something I need to do regarding reputation on this site?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
where did I ever say that one could obey the Law part time and then ignore it at other times?
my impression is that some laws are interpreted strictly, and others very loosely... is that a fair assessment?
 
Dec 1, 2014
1,430
27
0
Those original Ten Commandments had grown to about 650 by the time the JESUS was walking the earth and doing His eartly ministry. That is Legalism.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Oh, I don't know, why not ask the Galatians? They were the ones who were slipping back into it...

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

They had the Spirit but were slipping back into false practices.
is Paul saying the Galatians were 'doing witchcraft', or that they 'had been fooled'?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Well, how do YOU explain what Christ said about obedience to the Law?
well, before we talk about how I would explain it, is it fair to say that one is a valid law keeper if one uses a very broad sense of the laws? are we in agreement there?

what I'm hearing is, 'my position doesn't really make sense, but I don't think yours will, either.'
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
in the sense that they are consistent, yes.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.

The One known as "I AM". Who was that?

Joh 18:5 They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.

Notice the He is in italics? Means it was not in the original...

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

This was the One who became Jesus Christ who gave the Law.

I don't know what Manson said... post it if you got it, plzzzz..... the laws of the state of California were definitely in effect for Manson... as understood by the police and interpreted by the courts...

very different, imo, from the role of the law of Moses for the christian today...
Who is speaking here?




for example, there are courts in CA that will decide if you have broken a law... not so for christians and Torah...
You sure of that?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Jas 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

What Law is James referring to?

What does the previous verse say?

Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

And what Law contains "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
then why are you not in jerusalem at least once a year. Why are you no longer sacrificing animals to the priest. or doing the rest of the law?

james said you break one command, your guilty of it all. So why do you ignore alot of it. and not follow it all?
UH, because I understand that the application of the Law has changed. There is no longer a Priesthood or a Temple. Where did Paul go to keep the Feasts as long as the Temple and Priesthood stood?

Act 18:21 but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing." And he sailed from Ephesus.

Oh wait, he kept the Feast and he kept it in Jerusalem as long as the Temple and Priesthood stood.


as for me, I am not foolish enough to think I can keep the law. I know it still condemns me. so why would I boast of keeping the law, when I have failed. am failing, and will always fail?

My focus is in the cross and what God did for me to remove the curse of the law from me, and taking that love and giving it to others. SHould this not be your focus also?



I don't think that I am justified by Law keeping, but I do know that I can be condemned for Law BREAKING, therefore as Paul did, I strive to obey...

2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
just listened to EPHESIANS being read.

GOD'S WRATH upon the disobedient. sure thing. absolutely sure. no exception to HIS WORD --

HE HONORS HIS WORD EVEN ABOVE HIS NAME.


only hope for salvation is if someone pays for that wrath/ or punishment/ or penalty for sin/ with their obedient sacrifice/offering/life/blood according in EVERY WAY to GOD'S WORD.

now since JESUS HAS SUFFERED SUCH A HORRIBLE DEATH, for humans everywhere , turn to HIM TO BE SAVED.

anyone who could do that, (turn to HIM, after HIS HORRIBLE DEATH IN THEIR PLACE)

and think for a moment that they would after that STILL DISOBEY HIM ----
- they are great danger to be lost.... forever, not just for a while....
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
my impression is that some laws are interpreted strictly, and others very loosely... is that a fair assessment?
Well, I think that a better assessment is to interpret the Laws by the Spirit as Christ shows us on the Sermon on the Mount. Some Laws can be obeyed as stated, such as the Ten Commandments. No one would contend that it is OK to break the letter of those Laws. It is never OK to lie or steal or kill.

There are some that can be applied today in our everyday life...

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

If you have a deck on your house and if someone could fall off of it and get hurt, it is your responsibility to build a handrail around it for protection. The spiritual aspect of the Law is to protect folks at your home from undue injury.

There are some Laws that were for Israel nationally. Individuals cannot practice national laws. The Law concerning capital punishment is practiced today in the U.S. by duly constituted authorities. Individuals do not practice capital punishment today anymore than they did then.

Finally, there are some Laws that simply cannot be practiced. Those concerning a Priesthood and Temple can not be practiced. They are not applicable. An example would be that you should always stop at a stop sign. Are there any stop signs on an interstate highway? No. So do you stop at stop signs on an interstate highway? No. Does that do away with the law concerning stop signs? Don't run one in your neighborhood to find out.

The Law is spiritual and must be spiritually determined. The Holy Spirit gives one the ability to discern the Law. Seems funny, I am the one called a Pharisee, yet I am condemned for not practicing Pharisaical laws by those who claim to be spiritual and can only see the Law through Pharisaical eyes.
 
Last edited:

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Dan, where in the scripture do you see permission to blatantly disregard the Law?
well, here 'But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.' that sounds to me like we don't have to obey the law.

the law is useful for gaining wisdom, so we don't want to blatantly disregard the Law.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I apologize, it was more of a rhetorical question.
And you just proved my point. If someone is walking, and being guided by the Holy Spirit they'd be walking in Torah in a sense because they know that this is wrong.
yes, walking in Torah in a sense because when you're walking by the spirit, you are fulfilling Torah in a sense... regardless with what you do with tassels, imo.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Where in the scripture does it say to disobey the Law?
I don't think there's a scripture that says we should try to disobey the law, I think there're ones that say we may disobey the law.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
right, and that person wouldn't be a law keeper (imo).

do you strive, as much as possible, to do what they say? like, for example, can putting on tassels be wearing a wwjd bracelet?
I'm sorry, I'm not as good at embedding quotes as Elin is, and it's probably more difficult on a phone, so my post will not include a full copy of your post (it's missing my quotes to which you are responding).

My friend, my walk of faith is a life long journey to follow the Messiah and walk as He walked. Since He walked in obedience to the Father's will, His walk being the expression of that will, the goal of my walking after the Messiah will in turn be an expression of that same will. I believe that in the Messiah there was no sin; sin being transgression of the Torah-Law. As the Messiah was obedient to the Father, I want to be obedient as well.

My walk of faith is not perfect; we all make mistakes. My walk doesn't need to be perfect; the Messiah was perfect and removed any condemnation that would come upon me by me confessing Him as the anointed one and having faith in the power of His atoning sacrifice and resurrection. Now that I have come to faith, I do not want to continue in sin but want to grow in following the Father's will after the Messiah's footsteps, in which there is no sin.

I don't see a contradiction in the Father's will as expressed in the Torah-Law and the will in which the Messiah walked. Do I fully understand that will and walk in complete obedience to it? No, it's a life long journey, a process of being reformed to the mind of the Messiah, and I'll never walk perfectly. Thankfully I have a judge who doesn't demand perfection and understands my heartfelt desire and is gracious to save despite my incomplete understanding and failing. But I do believe He desires for us to have a repentant heart and a desire to learn from Him and follow Him.

I believe that when the Torah-Law was revealed at Sinai, it had in it the will of God for His people. If the commands of God say to do something or not do something, then it is to our benefit. When the command says not to murder, I believe that God's will for us is to not murder and that is to our benefit and, in this case, also to the benefit of our neighbor who is not being murdered by us. Or when it says to honor our mother and father, it is again God's will for us and to our benefit. All of this should be the result of loving God and loving our neighbor, that we are led to do the things God wills for us and not to do the things He doesn't will for us. I believe a rote following of God's commands apart from love is not what the Father intends. So He instructs through His prophets, the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit how to follow the full meaning of His commands and reach the goal.

At times, this leads me to be at odds with my fellow brothers and sisters in faith. For example, I believe when God said not to eat unclean animals, this was an expression of His will and for our benefit. The Messiah abided in the Father's will by not eating unclean animals, and I do the same as I follow in the Messiah's footsteps. Of course, there are other factors to consider, such as the High Priesthood in the Messiah, the destruction of the Temple, concepts of types and anti-types, etc.. This is all part of the walk and learning what it means to follow Him. So it's not as black and white as reading the Torah and attempting to do everything it says devoid of understanding the full picture. Not all of the commands ever applied each to every single person anyways, so now there must be even more consideration because of the different circumstances we are currently in: no functioning Levitical priesthood, no standing Temple, being a non-Jew who does not live in the land of Israel, etc. So, I assume an honest investigation into the matter of God's will as expressed in the commands and followed by the Messiah, and not merely a dismissal of "the Law."

On the topic of tassels, I will honestly say that I don't yet have a position on it. I haven't got to that point yet in my walk to consider that command. After a cursory reading of the command, I can see why it is beneficial: to serve as a tangible reminder to follow God's will. Such reminders are good things while we are still in earthly bodies in the present world. One day we will be in new bodies in the world to come and will not need such reminders. The command raises many immediate questions for me: What constitutes a proper tassel? Should these tassels be on every garment or just some garments? Do these tasseled garments have to be worn daily or just on certain occasions? The text of Num. 15 doesn't give these details. Because of that, I have a greater appreciation for the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah-Law who must have had these same sorts of questions in mind as they considered how to abide in God's will concerning this command.

The problem, as I see it, is they got to the point where they concluded a pile of regulations concerning the "proper" way to follow God on this and other matters and then bound all these regulations on the people as if these regulations were the commands of God. We see this throughout the gospels on other issues of Sabbath observance, eating with unwashed hands, etc. Read the Talmud and you'll see a compendium of regulations not stated in the Torah-Law but considered by the rabbis to be binding "laws" on the people equal in status to the commands of God in the Torah-Law and sometimes viewed as more important. Thus, they are inappropriately exercising the authority of God to make such declarations. In this sense, God's will as expressed through the walk of the Messiah is indeed light since it does not include the leaven of the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah-Law with regards to additional regulations.

Returning to the example of a stop sign, I do not believe it accurately depicts the situation regarding tassels since it's a command that raises additional questions whereas a stop sign does not in most circumstances that I can think of. As I said, I don't currently have a position on this command because I have not yet studied it. But I'm not going to pretend like it never existed in the first place, as I wouldn't do for a stop sign placed on the road. One day I may study it out and take it to God in prayer, seek the counsel of others, etc. Even so, I may never arrive at how to perfectly carry it out, if such a thing even exists. Maybe the vagueness of the command is open room for following God's will on the matter in different ways. But this isn't the same as completely ignoring it. Or, to be perfectly honest, I may never get to it and die never having explored it. Thankfully my salvation is based on the Messiah's sacrifice and God's unmerited favor and not my ability to keep commands. Praise God for the Messiah or we would all be doomed! So we all walk humbly with God as we learn to take up His ways and leave ways opposed to Him behind us.

I hope this answers your question, but more importantly gives you a better understanding of where I am coming from.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
You sure of that?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Jas 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

What Law is James referring to?

What does the previous verse say?

Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

And what Law contains "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
something got messed up with the quoting system, there... I'll try to answer what I think you're asking...

"The One known as "I AM". Who was that?"
God. and this is probably where we differ. I think that when Jesus says things like 'my commandments', he means his teachings here on earth. That's different from Torah, which is intended for the Israelites, mostly in the wilderness, imo.

for the rest, I can't follow it, I'm not sure if it relates to what I said about Manson and courts, etc.

repost, plzzzzzz