Many CC Discussions Could Be Solved With Antinomy.

[Tr]

Good example of how humans do not have free will. Ones mind can be changed by an event, so even if you choose not to believe something he still had a very real experience that changed his mind.

If I say I don't believe in bananas, they seemed too fake whatever. You show me a banana, I taste it. I could say its still not real but in my mind I would know bananas are real. Free will has been defeated by an event/data.

Same me goes for any action or belief. You make decisions based on facts and evidence.

Was that not the EXACT same with Saul who became Paul? Saul wanted to KILL Christians, but GOD CHOSE him for a vessel to MAKE MORE CHRSITIANS...Do you see that Saul WILLED Satan's will but God's Will was that he would be PAUL for GOD'S will?

Where is Saul's free choice? Saul HAD no choice! God chose HIM not Sau lChose God! Man I think we should focus on who chose who for what. If God does not CHOOSE you, you will NEVER do God's will NEVER! And since when did ANY sinner choose to do God's will? If you look at the SALVATION process, it is ALL GOD! There is not one single step where man's will is a contributing factor to the salvation of the man. In fact the CHOICES the man made in the past is why the man NEED God and His salvation.

You think to highly of yourself if you think you contribute to your slavation with your will or choice. If God wants a man for His Kingdom, GOD WILL DO HIS WILL. And the man, does not even have a say in the process, let alone a will or a choice! God will save whom HE WANTS saved. And the rest? They will not get saved, as easy as that!

 

[RedTent]

Tinnie-man.... Man NEVER had a will. And man never will have one. Can you show me a verse that says man has free will? Sin is not a will of man, it is listening to Satan's will and do HIS WILL.... Holiness is not a will of man, it is listenng to God and DO HIS WILL. We only do one of two wills. Oh we may have a free choice, but that also has an end to ALL WHO ARE SAVED...

If you understand God and His salvation you will know that ALL Holy man are CAUSED (Forced) to do ONLY GOD'S WILL. And that is what the Bible teach. If God knows the names of the saved even before the earth was made, then the saved was DESTINED to be holy as God is Holy. And there is not ONE verse that contradicts this fact.

God WILL do as HE PLEASE, and nothng will change His mind. NOTHING. LEt me ask you this... I know the Bible says Moses rebuked God and God repented, but do you really thing a man can have God REPENT? See there are weird thngs in the Bible. but it takes KNOWLEDGE to discern and know the Truth.

How can God REPENT? That is just CRAZY! And if you wnat more things people lay at God's door I can give you plenty. I just know my Heavenly Father is truly a God and a PERFECT one that need NO MAN TO COUNCIL. Who of the creation will tell the creator what to do? MOSES? NEVER!

The clay has no say..... Do you understnad this? The CLAY (us) has no say (to the POTTER)

As this is read, it is proof that Tintin is right. Here are lots of biblical truths, but not all the words of God that must fit into the solution of the problem of free will, some of them antinomy.

 

[kayem77]

Good thread Tintin, very interesting

There is a book by John Piper titled ''Does God Desire All To Be Saved?'' that explains some of these antinomies. It goes over some of the common arguments for and against predestination and God's desire to save everyone. Anyway, at the conclusion he says that God meant all those things he said. He does love the world, and he does have an elect. But God wills things in different ways and God desires things in different levels too ( I won't go into details because it's long and I don't remember all of it either lol). He genuinely desires the wicked man to repent, but in the big picture that only God can see, his greatest desire is His glory. When God displays His character, both his grace and his justice, He is glorified. How is that glory achieved? We don't know all the details, but we know that He does, and that He is just.

We don't have to ignore his grace to believe in his wrath, or ignore his wrath to believe in his grace. We just can't ignore something in scripture in order to make sense of other verses, rather we could try to make sense of them in in light of other verses that reveal something seemingly contradictory. He knows how the big picture looks like. I guess that's why his ways are not our ways and his thoughts not our thoughts

P.S. I will add myself to the list of people praising you for being so respectful! It's not very common to find that attitude in this forum.

 

[Tintin]

Thank you, Kayem. I really appreciate your post. That book sounds fascinating! I'll put it on my reading list.

 

[38miles]

Tintin - excellent thread brother. Unfortunately, while many of our CC discussions could be solved with antinomy…they most likely won't be. I wonder if some have selectively passed over this thread in fear of conviction.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Good thread Tintin, very interesting

There is a book by John Piper titled ''Does God Desire All To Be Saved?'' that explains some of these antinomies. It goes over some of the common arguments for and against predestination and God's desire to save everyone. Anyway, at the conclusion he says that God meant all those things he said. He does love the world, and he does have an elect. But God wills things in different ways and God desires things in different levels too ( I won't go into details because it's long and I don't remember all of it either lol). He genuinely desires the wicked man to repent, but in the big picture that only God can see, his greatest desire is His glory. When God displays His character, both his grace and his justice, He is glorified. How is that glory achieved? We don't know all the details, but we know that He does, and that He is just.

We don't have to ignore his grace to believe in his wrath, or ignore his wrath to believe in his grace. We just can't ignore something in scripture in order to make sense of other verses, rather we could try to make sense of them in in light of other verses that reveal something seemingly contradictory. He knows how the big picture looks like. I guess that's why his ways are not our ways and his thoughts not our thoughts

P.S. I will add myself to the list of people praising you for being so respectful! It's not very common to find that attitude in this forum.

I don't think one can argue strictly from scripture God desires all men be saved.

Q: 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God wants all men to be saved and to
come to a knowledge of the truth. Doesn't this disprove the concept of
election?
A: Again, the entire context of Scripture, as well as of the
passage, must be considered. Aside from all the passages that clearly indicate
God's ability to save all men, and bring all men to a knowledge of the truth if
He so desired, we again note the context of the passage. Verse five speaks of
the mediatorship of Jesus Christ, and, as we saw in our examination of the
atonement and intercession of Christ, this work is undertaken in behalf of God's
people. Therefore, the term "men" in verse 5 is limited to the elect of God. As
John Owen noted in this regard,​

What then, I pray? what will be concluded hence? Cannot Christ be
a mediator between God and men, but he must be a mediator for all men? Are not
the elect men? do not the children partake of flesh and blood? doth not his
church consist of men? What reason is there to assert, out of an indefinite
proposition, a universal conclusion? Because Christ was a mediator for men
(which were true had he been so only for his apostles), shall we conclude
therefore he was so for all men? (John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death
of Christ, p. 78.)​

The same is to be said for verse 6, where the ransom sacrifice of
Christ is mentioned. We have seen that this sacrifice was made in behalf of the
people of God, not for each and every individual. Therefore, if verses five and
six specifically mention the work of Christ in behalf of the elect, verse four
does as well. This fits consistently with the entire teaching of Scripture. "All
men" here is the same "all" that are given by the Father to the Son in John
6:37.​

(Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White)

Would have posted my own words, but I'm strapped for time this morning.

 

[phil36]

I think piper is referring to the descriptive (when referring to 'all') rather than prescriptive if memory serves me correct (mind you my memory isn't al that great lol)

 

[homwardbound]

So who gets to decide this one? Who gets to decide when something is imbalanced?

That would be God who has come to live in you, via the Holy Spirit sent to us that believe.
And so see this and discern between God and you.
[h=3]Hebrews 8:11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

I have learned to listen to all and take all heard to God and trust God to cause me to stand, seperating truth and error which when God has shown me truth over error I am set free.
And whenever I am in bondage I know to seek truth over the bondage error somewhere and need to re-think truth that I thought was truth that put me back in bondage


As growing process as in Hebrews 5:10-6:6

 

[homwardbound]

Yeah I like how the Bible teaches predestination, but it also says it's God's desire that all be saved.

The Calvinists try to impose their logic on this, and they come up with limited atonement.

The Arminians impose their logic on it and pretty much deny predestination. Well ok, they reverse engineer it into anything but predestination.

Good thoughts TinTin.

I see predestination as this is what God sees in advance as to who will and who will not, yet God's Mercy goes on in hopes, keeping true to his word of free will that all will change their mind or why else would this be going on so long?
God is Merciful and this is shown through Son Christ, come on time to believe God and not man you think?

 

[homwardbound]

Then you have a very different definition of free will, one that is more just to keep the term than it is what it actually teaches as a theology. Humans make choices, but these choices are not free. Even Lutherans understand that one. Monergists n' all.

Slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.

John 8:32
and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be freeindeed.

 

[jimmydiggs]

That would be God who has come to live in you, via the Holy Spirit sent to us that believe.
And so see this and discern between God and you.
Hebrews 8:11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

I have learned to listen to all and take all heard to God and trust God to cause me to stand, seperating truth and error which when God has shown me truth over error I am set free.
And whenever I am in bondage I know to seek truth over the bondage error somewhere and need to re-think truth that I thought was truth that put me back in bondage


As growing process as in Hebrews 5:10-6:6

Yes. Now, when two people claiming to be filled with the spirit disagree on a major issue, who is without the holy spirit?

 

[homwardbound]

To which do you refer?


[TABLE="width: 550"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Libertarian free will[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]|
Compatibilist free will
|[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

• Free will is affected by human nature but retains ability to choose contrary to fallen nature and desires

[/TD]
[TD]

• Free will is affected by human nature but person cannot choose contrary to the fallen nature and desires

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

(source)
The vast majority who argue free will, argue libertarian free will. This position generally tends toward open-theism. The only way you could believe much of scripture is the compatabilist position. Though they call it free will, it really isn't free will in the philosophical sense (which is the origin of the term, it has no theological origin but rather is an import from the Enlightenment after being stamped out from pelagius' influence).

The free will here is of the flesh and not the Spirit of God in Love from God as in 1 cor. 13:4-13

 

[jimmydiggs]

The free will here is of the flesh and not the Spirit of God in Love from God as in 1 cor. 13:4-13

Well, there isn't free will in scripture. Only slavery.

Romans 6

[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. [SUP]20 [/SUP]When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. [SUP]21 [/SUP]What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[SUP][b][/SUP] Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[homwardbound]

I noticed that some human can analyze a certain situation, whether to do what is right, or wrong; but animals has to be trained to do what is right, or wrong. So basically humans can independently choose what direction they desire to go, and the animals just wander aimlessly.

Yet in the last disaster when the water flooded over and all those people killed, the animals fled before hand and went to higher ground, Who is smarter, I mean elephants pulled stakes out of the ground and fled, who is listening,. animals or man? We are dumb as sheep are we not?

 

[homwardbound]

Tinnie-man.... Man NEVER had a will. And man never will have one. Can you show me a verse that says man has free will? Sin is not a will of man, it is listening to Satan's will and do HIS WILL.... Holiness is not a will of man, it is listenng to God and DO HIS WILL. We only do one of two wills. Oh we may have a free choice, but that also has an end to ALL WHO ARE SAVED...


If you understand God and His salvation you will know that ALL Holy man are CAUSED (Forced) to do ONLY GOD'S WILL. And that is what the Bible teach. If God knows the names of the saved even before the earth was made, then the saved was DESTINED to be holy as God is Holy. And there is not ONE verse that contradicts this fact.


God WILL do as HE PLEASE, and nothng will change His mind. NOTHING. LEt me ask you this... I know the Bible says Moses rebuked God and God repented, but do you really thing a man can have God REPENT? See there are weird thngs in the Bible. but it takes KNOWLEDGE to discern and know the Truth.


How can God REPENT? That is just CRAZY! And if you wnat more things people lay at God's door I can give you plenty. I just know my Heavenly Father is truly a God and a PERFECT one that need NO MAN TO COUNCIL. Who of the creation will tell the creator what to do? MOSES? NEVER!


The clay has no say..... Do you understnad this? The CLAY (us) has no say (to the POTTER)

Cobus sorry not forced: led and willing to do God's bidding by the Holy Ghost of and from God, a gift to us that believe God at his word

 

[homwardbound]

Some of us got it, some of us ain't, Tintin is full of it.

So you are right and he is wrong, to me that kind of thinking and judging is plain wrong, Thanks though

 

[homwardbound]

I thought of a very simple but scriptural paradox. So maybe there is a truth to this whole thing.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

be transformed - μεταμορφοῦσθε Metamorphousthe.

This verb is the passive imperative in Greek. That means, that we are COMMANDED (imperative) to do this. But it is also passive, which means we are being acted upon by God.

I have pondered this verb in this important verse of Scripture for over 3 years now. How can we obey a command that requires God to do it to us?

I guess because we are walking with God, and we are obeying him, so he is transforming us, as we passively allow him to do it to us.

Is that an example of scriptural antimony, on the micro level?

By seeing his Love for us first and we then are willing for God to use us and thus we are transformed from flesh death to new life in the Spirit of God via the resurrected Christ

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[homwardbound]

I like to think of it as an interplay between yoked oxen where a younger is yoked to an experienced ox. (Mt 11:28-30). The younger ox may pull in the wrong direction only to be corrected by the older's wisdom and strength.

As I see that, I see Christ as the mature, and we learn from the holy Spirit whom we are by belief sealed with
Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[homwardbound]

I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to say black is white and vice-versa. I'm trying to reconcile the beliefs that are found in God's Word. If all of the truths revealed in the Bible are true (about God's nature, His purposes etc.), that's it - they're true. One truth doesn't mean the other isn't true.

Yes Tintin we need discernment and truly that only comes from God the truth that set us free and if anyone of us are in bondage then might there be error in our truth, and are in need for God to get us to stand and show us our error(s) to be set free

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
John 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful
1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

[homwardbound]

contraindications exist in the Bible because different people wrote it at different time periods. you cannot have the same idea as the next guy 100 years later living in a different city with possible differences in culture. laws inevitably change over time this is just part of the evolution of morality and the sociality of mankind

No matter what it is the Spirit of God that does the discerning, and we shall know the truth and be set free in that, praising and thanking God for all his Mercy he has given to all that believe desiring to just know him for that alone