Messianic Christians?

Hoffco · May 13, 2014

The problem with most people, Christians, non christians, Jews or Gentile, and mormons and JW's who claim to be christians and are not; The problem is ,that most people DON"T know how to read or study the word of God for themselves. They all come with a bias mind all ready made up and they try to prove their "religion" by the Bible. Some of you are so new to studying the Bible or you are so full of false teachings that you can not see the truth when it is right in front of you,, shouting to be heard. The Bible is not easy to understand, much of it is hidden in the multitude of words hiding it from the insincere seeker. Jesus said, only certain ones , His "chosen" ones, are the only ones who can understand and receive God's words. But the beauty of the word of God is that it is an objective work of literature, able to be understood by any one knowing the laws of literature and has the patience to ,open mindedly studys it. Just come in faith and willing to learn. If you don't believe it, you will not accept it. Pray for an open heart. Love Hoffco

Hoffco · May 13, 2014

Consider the words of John 1:18, " the only begotten Son of God": look at the words. "Son" this is one who comes from a father and a mother but in this case, the "Son" comes from God alone no mother. HE is the "only begotten Son of God" who happens to be, at that time, "in the bosom of the Father" He is on earth as the son of Mary and the holy Spirit, and in Heaven at the same time. He is Jesus on earth and also in Heaven, at the same time, as the "only begotten Son" of the Father, in a loving relationship with the Father, at that very moment. NO OTHER PERSON can be as He is. THE GOD/MAN. V,14, "He has the "glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." 14:6 He is "the WAY, TRUTH and The LIFE". And He is the eternal WORD with the God of the universe, and He is the God of the universe, Who created all things, So He is not a created being . But He became a created being /Man. Very simple to understand if you open your mind to the Word of God. Love to all, Hoffco OH, ps, All this is proven by the rest of the whole Bible.!

Hoffco · May 13, 2014

OH, by he way, we are all messianic Christians, Jesus is the Christ for all nations. He is the Jewish messiah, because he came from the Jews, it is a Jewish salvation, because it came from the Jews and we Gentile are grafted into the Jewish root,tree so we are the "Seed" of Abraham who was a Gentile but the father of the Jewish nation and many other nation, unfortunately. And if you don't like being related to the Jews, then you may not be a Christian at all.? love, Hoffco
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VCO · May 13, 2014

danschance said:

Let's clarify what exactly do you your mean by "the Hebrew Roots Movement"?

Do you consider all Jewish Christian organizations to be part of "the Hebrew Roots Movement"?

Do you consider Dr. Zola Levitt's organization to be part of "the Hebrew Roots Movement"?

Do you consider Jews for Jesus to be part of "the Hebrew Roots Movement"?

Do you consider the Jewish Voice organization to be part of "the Hebrew Roots Movement"?

Do you consider the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem ICEJ Home | ICEJ USA to be part of "the Hebrew Roots Movement"?

I am just trying to determine just how deep your antisemitism goes?

VCO · May 13, 2014

crossnote said:

You cannot put all of GOD in a box, even if that box is called the physical body of Jesus Christ.

Thus the part of the Triune Godhead that has always functioned as the SON, carrying out the will of the Father, such as The Father WILLED Creation, while the Son carried out that Will. YES all three are co-equally GOD, but they still are three distinct persons with three distinct functions, YET only ONE DEITY. My point was that GOD remained OMNIPRESENT in all space and all time, throughout the entire 33 years that Jesus was physically on this earth.

YES I said Omnipresent includes being in every second of time as we know it, all at the same time. HE declares the end from the beginning because HE is Omnipresent in all TIME. HE wrote our names in the book of life choosing those who choose HIM, because He is Omnipresent in all TIME. HE is not a created being traveling through time, HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL TIME.

Kinda STRETCHES your understanding of just how BIG GOD REALLY IS, doesn't it?

Timeline · May 13, 2014

VCO said:

This is a topic that I have responded to on another thread. There are places in the bible that suggest that Jesus and God are two separate beings. There are also verses that suggest only one God. I have no plans to go to deep into a topic that I don't think can be fully comprehended.

But since you realize that the bible says that Jesus is God, I will address a few verses that suggest that Jesus and God are two separate beings.

The plural use in Genesis 1 "Let Us make man in Our Image"
Jesus saying, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?"
The two separate verses that say God cannot be tempted. And the other saying that Jesus was tempted.

I know that you will probably have Hebrew and Greek explanations for these verses. But I don't read either. And I have found Strong's and Interlinear Bibles to be of limited help. I find myself guessing more than figuring anything out.

crossnote · May 13, 2014

VCO said:

You cannot put all of GOD in a box, even if that box is called the physical body of Jesus Christ.

Thus the part of the Triune Godhead that has always functioned as the SON, carrying out the will of the Father, such as The Father WILLED Creation, while the Son carried out that Will. YES all three are co-equally GOD, but they still are three distinct persons with three distinct functions, YET only ONE DEITY. My point was that GOD remained OMNIPRESENT in all space and all time, throughout the entire 33 years that Jesus was physically on this earth.

YES I said Omnipresent includes being in every second of time as we know it, all at the same time. HE declares the end from the beginning because HE is Omnipresent in all TIME. HE wrote our names in the book of life choosing those who choose HIM, because He is Omnipresent in all TIME. HE is not a created being traveling through time, HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL TIME.

Kinda STRETCHES your understanding of just how BIG GOD REALLY IS, doesn't it?

I understand your point, I was just seeking clarification.

VCO · May 14, 2014

Timeline said:

I have no problem comprehending the Holy Trinity?

Why do you?

All mainline Churches teach and believe in the three persons of the GODHEAD being on ONE GOD.

Why do I have no problem understanding the Trinity?

We are created in the image of GOD,

God is Holy -- We are not.
God is All Knowing -- We are not.
God is All Powerful -- We are not.
God is Omnipresent -- We are not.
God is an Eternal Being -- We are not.
God is the Creator -- We are not.
God is the Author of the Bible -- We are not.
God is Infallible -- We are not.
God is the Shot Caller -- We are not.
God is LORD OF ALL -- We are not.

So how are we made in HIS IMAGE?

We are a triune being (body, soul, and spirit), yet only ONE HUMAN Being not Three; JUST LIKE GOD is three parts that make up ONE GOD. NOTICE: Two of our parts are invisible and only one is visible, JUST LIKE GOD.

Don't believe me that ALL mainline Churches teach the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity? Check it out, almost every Christian Organization publishes the Doctrinal Statement of Faith or What We Believe on their website. Those that DENY the Deity of Christ are not considered Mainline Churches, but rather psuedo Christian Cults.

Let me help you get started in your search for those that Teach and Believe in the Holy Trinity:

Statement of Faith

EFCA Statement of Faith | EFCA

Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

Statement of Faith and Educational Purpose | Wheaton

https://www.liberty.edu/aboutliberty/?PID=6907

https://www.cmalliance.org/about/beliefs/doctrine

Doctrinal Statement | About Cedarville University | Cedarville University, a Christian College

ThomistColin · May 14, 2014

Timeline said:

This is a topic that I have responded to on another thread. There are places in the bible that suggest that Jesus and God are two separate beings. There are also verses that suggest only one God. I have no plans to go to deep into a topic that I don't think can be fully comprehended.

But since you realize that the bible says that Jesus is God, I will address a few verses that suggest that Jesus and God are two separate beings.

The plural use in Genesis 1 "Let Us make man in Our Image"
Jesus saying, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?"
The two separate verses that say God cannot be tempted. And the other saying that Jesus was tempted.

I know that you will probably have Hebrew and Greek explanations for these verses. But I don't read either. And I have found Strong's and Interlinear Bibles to be of limited help. I find myself guessing more than figuring anything out.

The second quote is Christ crying out a psalm. It begins with my god my god..and ends with the joy of the Lord.

Hoffco · May 14, 2014

It is very upsetting to me to think that any Jew or Gentile who would argue against the the teachings of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, (the New Testament) could be considered as being Christian.??? I am reacting to Osiyo's saying that "some"...argue that the Apostles were the first to accept Jesus is their Messiah. If any church or Fellowship doesn't accept the New Testament can't be Christian at all. Therefore, Osiyois saying that "most Messianic groups are non-Christian. Please address this problem. Love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco · May 14, 2014

To VCO, Please allow me to, friendly, comment on you post 348. I would consider the statements of Faith of the colleges and Seminaries you listed, as CULTIC in many issues. Their "Faith only" salvation is cultic. Many believe in a Discisionistic Regeneration, this is cultic: that one is born again by their accepting Jesus as Savior. This is heathenism, not Christian. Their converts are still, heathens, still living in sin. I am very bold to make a point, not to condemmn my Brothers and Sisters in Christ. There are many great Christians in our Churches who are cultic in their faith and many are still lost in their sin, as they receive Jesus as savior. Love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco · May 14, 2014

To Timeline , If you are denying that Jesus is, at the same time, man and also a part of the Trinity, you are cultic and not Christian. One who denys the Son does not have the Father. Sorry , but, what are you really saying? Any messianic group that denys the Trinity is not Christian. Love to all, Hoffco

VCO · May 14, 2014

Hoffco said:

No, you had better look around, as you have been deceived by a modern day Pharisee-like cult, who think their works earn their Salvation. The definition of Psuedo Christian Cult, is those who contradict Mainline Christianity's common core of Beliefs.

All of those sites that I gave you are Mainline Christianity sites. AND you are mistaken that we believe only accepting Jesus as Savior saves. WE BELIEVE THAT YOU MUST RECEIVE JESUS AS LORD, which means MASTER, which the Holy Spirit empowers you to do, while at the same time HE brings your once dead to the will of GOD human spirit to ETERNAL LIFE. WE BELIEVE that if that born again experience was REAL, it will manifest itself by LOVING GOD in the form of willing obedience, because HE SAVED US.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Timeline · May 14, 2014

Hoffco said:

I am not taking anything away from Jesus that isn't His, if that is what you mean. Nor can I. Many words have been "placed" on the bible that are not there to explain ideas that men have "understood" after reading the scripture. I do not make it a goal to study those manmade words, although I am somewhat familiar with some of some. I don't really think that everyone that says "trinity" is saying the same thing as someone else that says trinity. Don't you agree?

Timeline · May 14, 2014

ThomistColin said:

Many of the Psalms are talking about Jesus. So it might be more accurate to say that Psalm was foretelling/prophesying about Jesus.

VCO · May 15, 2014

Hoffco said:

Well let's see if that accusation holds any water. I just did a Google search for "Messianic Statement of Faith", and I will just do the first page of the search results, TOP to Bottom, checking to see if they believe in the Trinity.

Statement of Faith - MJAA = Believes in the Trinity.
Statements of Faith - Statements of Faith - Messiah College, a Christian college in PA = Believes in the Trinity.

Modern Messianic Creeds = Believes in the Trinity.

Beth Shalom Messianic Jewish Community - Statement of Faith = Believes in the Trinity.

A Concise Messianic Statement Of Faith - Messianic = Believes in the Trinity.

Statement of Faith at House of Covenant - Messianic Hebrew Congregation in Bend, Oregon = Believes in the Trinity.

UMJC – Statement of Faith = Believes in the Trinity.

Statement of Faith | Sid Roth - It's Supernatural = Believes in the Trinity.

Statement of Faith = Believes in the Trinity.

Statement of Faith | Arrowhead Messianic CongregationArrowhead Messianic Congregation = Believes in the Trinity.

Statement of Faith = Believes in the Trinity.

What We Believe | Creekside Community Church = And this is the BOTTOM one. I am not sure why Google pulled this Community Church up on the list of search results for Messianic Statement of Faith, but they too, Believe in the Trinity.

NOTE: Every single link on PAGE ONE of the Search Results BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY.
Conclusion: Whoever made up the statement "most Messianic groups are non-Christian" is peddling a total lie aimed at smearing the reputation of Messianic Christians, and reeks of antisemitism.

Hoffco · May 15, 2014

Sorry time line, your reasoning is as clear as mud; I can not agree with any thing which I can not understand. But the trinity is clearly presented as true by the New Testament and is fully acceptable in the framework of the O.T.. The oneness of God in the O.T. is achad, Deut.6:2, which means a oneness in plurality of persons. So, 3 in 1 is acceptable to the Jewish mind. Love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco · May 15, 2014

VCO, As I said, all christians are messianic, we believe Jesus is the Jewish messiah. I like the Doct. statement of the Messiah college in Pa. But Liberty university is the worse "carnal christian" school I know. I think timeline doesn't know what he believe. I can't tell what he is. Maybe agnostic. ??? He sure doesn't take a clear stand on much he says. I am sure that most all the Hebrew roots people are really messed up about the New T. and I know messianic Christians are most likely Christians and not Judaizers. Love to all, Hoffco

VCO · May 15, 2014

Hoffco said:

The QUESTION IS, who and what are you?

What Church do you attend?

What Doctrinal Statement explains to us WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

Why do you not back up your accusations or beliefs with Scripture?

It would be helpful if you would use the "Reply With Quote" option because it includes a hyperlink back to the post you are replying to. In case you are unfamiliar with this site's hyperlink feature, that refers back to the post being quoted, it is the little blue box with two white arrows that point to the right, at the end of the first line in the quote. I frequently edit the reply so that just the sentences remain that I want to reply to; and when I do (as I did above) I put three periods separated by spaces to indicate where I left out sentences or paragraphs. That way if someone wants to read the entire quote they can just use the hyperlink and jump back to that post.

NOW, I need to ask again, Who and What are the Hebrew Roots people that you refer to, as I have never heard that term before this Thread? AND how do we distinguish between them and Messianic Christians?

I too believe that Messianic is a term that applies to both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians that genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah, and in the Messianic Prophecies of Scripture; which applies to all of the Mainline Christian Churches, as far as I know. At the risk of expanding this debate, I also Totally believe that the BRIDE of Christ is made up of the sum total of genuine believers of all time; both Old Testament saints and New Testament saints.

Old Testament saints are those who repented and BELIEVED GOD, unto receiving Messiah as LORD.
New Testament saints are those who repented and BELIEVED GOD, unto receiving Messiah as LORD.

Jeremiah 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The word of the LORD came to me:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “Go and announce directly to Jerusalem that this is what the LORD says: I remember the loyalty of your youth, your love as a bride— how you followed Me in the wilderness, in a land not sown.

Jeremiah 33:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] a sound of joy and gladness, the voice of the groom and the bride, and the voice of those saying, Praise the LORD of Hosts, for the LORD is good; His faithful love endures forever as they bring thank offerings to the temple of the LORD. For I will restore the fortunes of the land as in former times, says the LORD.

Isaiah 62:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

John 3:29 (ESV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.

Luke 5:34-35 (ESV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And Jesus said to them, “Can you make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them?
[SUP]35 [/SUP] The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days.”

Matthew 25:1-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'

Ephesians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body.

Revelation 18:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

HENCE the BRIDE of Christ is made up of both O.T. and N.T. saints, who have all been sanctified by the Blood of the Lamb, the Messiah of Israel, Jesus Christ.

NOW, since I asked for a Doctrinal Statement that tells us what you believe, it is only fair that I too provide one that I agree with wholeheartedly. I know of many that would be appropriate, but I will give you the one that I think is the most thorough. It is on Dr. John MacArthur's "Grace to You" site:

Grace to You

Galatians2-20 · May 15, 2014

While things may have changed, the last time I checked, not many messianic Jews had much to do with the Hebrew Roots movement. Rather, many were Gentiles who desired to be Jews, some even going to the extreme of abandoning faith in Christ in favor of keeping the law.

Messianic Christians?

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