Mike Bickle's "Israel Mandate"

[PeterJens]

Funny thing with you Peter is this, not once in any of your posts have you ever used scripture to back yourself up.

I got to laugh. I have spent years talking to muslims, and they want quotes galour. But what it all comes down to is plain old simple life. We are born to love from the heart. Jesus unlocks this possibility and it is demonstrated in peoples lives by how they live.

As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:35

Now following Jesus is about becoming an authentic human being, speaking from the heart and wearing ones emotions on ones sleeves.

Now I am commanded to rebuke those who have gone astray. I am not here to be nice, because what people are talking about is worthy of hell, destroys the whole work of Jesus upon the cross, and will lead many astray.

So I am no friend of yours.

Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven Matt 18:18

And what you do not see is I am merely a messenger of truth that is before you, which stands in judgement over you and testifies as to your error. I am called simply to provide this warning, it is Gods judgement that will fall swiftly and without warning. In myself I am a weak man, with many flaws, but the strength is this is I know the Lord and scripture he provided and have hidden it in my heart, it is my souls blood, though I do not spend enough time contemplating it.


But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say. Matt 10:19

I testify to you today, that the words I speak here are given by the Lord, not pre-prepared but come to mind as I read and see what is being said. So be very careful, because I do not speak alone, and these things come from thousands of years ago, but are as true today as when Jesus first spoke them.

 

[Sirk]

I got to laugh. I have spent years talking to muslims, and they want quotes galour. But what it all comes down to is plain old simple life. We are born to love from the heart. Jesus unlocks this possibility and it is demonstrated in peoples lives by how they live.

As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:35

Now following Jesus is about becoming an authentic human being, speaking from the heart and wearing ones emotions on ones sleeves.

Now I am commanded to rebuke those who have gone astray. I am not here to be nice, because what people are talking about is worthy of hell, destroys the whole work of Jesus upon the cross, and will lead many astray.

So I am no friend of yours.

Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven Matt 18:18

And what you do not see is I am merely a messenger of truth that is before you, which stands in judgement over you and testifies as to your error. I am called simply to provide this warning, it is Gods judgement that will fall swiftly and without warning. In myself I am a weak man, with many flaws, but the strength is this is I know the Lord and scripture he provided and have hidden it in my heart, it is my souls blood, though I do not spend enough time contemplating it.


But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say. Matt 10:19

I testify to you today, that the words I speak here are given by the Lord, not pre-prepared but come to mind as I read and see what is being said. So be very careful, because I do not speak alone, and these things come from thousands of years ago, but are as true today as when Jesus first spoke them.

It's interesting how defensive people get when you touch on thier pet doctrine. A spirit of defensiveness is a spirit nonetheless. Truth needs no defending for "a lie travels around the world while the truth is lacing up its shoes".

 

[ember]

A great lie is spoken. That love and righteousness do not matter.

One contributor said I was being victorian to suggest love mattered or changed things.
This signs and miracles gospel is the heresy Jesus talked about. It is a gospel with no content. The miracles they claim are actually lies, deception and things that when you look in detail at, are without foundation.

The new "prophets" talk about things that do not come to pass. They talk of revivals and people doing great things, but nothing takes place. The new "apostles" take authority, but when you look at what they are talking about, it is fake experiences in the 3rd heaven, or encounters with angels who distribute wealth, or glass gems appearing to show angels have been present.

This is foolish lying, spoken by people who claim to only speak the truth, yet are hypocrites.

Jesus commanded us "to love one another as I have loved you." But this is too hard for them, literally.
Following Jesus is about finding the truth within, freedom from sin, having reality. All I see in these people is deception and lying, and when questioned about who Jesus is, they do not know Him.

You speak of dead things with no understanding.

You speak of and from yourself and do not actually reply to what people post, but rather speak in vague terms of your experience...things really we cannot verify...you simply do not believe the Bible as you and so many others state that you do.

Your posts are generally insulting and belittling while you speak of love and Jesus.

You are like an old cracker that has been swept out from under the fridge and even the dog does not want it.

My last post in response to your thinly veiled mocking

 

[ember]

It's interesting how defensive people get when you touch on thier pet doctrine. A spirit of defensiveness is a spirit nonetheless. Truth needs no defending for "a lie travels around the world while the truth is lacing up its shoes".

Well, I really find the defensiveness exits on both sides....

 

[Joshua_Generation]

The authority of the NT lies with the men that wrote it, the apostles.

Paul quoted the gospel of Luke as "Scripture" (1Tim.5:18--Luke 10:7), Peter had a collection of Paul's "letters" (2Peter 3:16).

The apostles exhorted that their letters be read and circulated among the churches (Col. 4:16; 1Thess. 5:27, Rev. 1:3)

They seemed to have found value in the Bible.

You need to come to full age and accept the fact that some of the leaders of charismatic congregations are flat out liars when they say they have "new revelations" for the church.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3

There are no more revelations, we have all we need. The faith has an unchanging, and unchangeable content.

One of the ways we determine knowing them by their fruits and searching for signs of spiritual maturity beyond being as babe is admitting to even a small, tiny mistake.

it was 2 Tim 3.16-17 and not 1 Tim 3.16-17.

In your haste to prove a point you failed a very simple test.

Come to full age.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I got to laugh. I have spent years talking to muslims, and they want quotes galour. But what it all comes down to is plain old simple life. We are born to love from the heart. Jesus unlocks this possibility and it is demonstrated in peoples lives by how they live.

As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:35

Now following Jesus is about becoming an authentic human being, speaking from the heart and wearing ones emotions on ones sleeves.

Now I am commanded to rebuke those who have gone astray. I am not here to be nice, because what people are talking about is worthy of hell, destroys the whole work of Jesus upon the cross, and will lead many astray.

So I am no friend of yours.

Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven Matt 18:18

And what you do not see is I am merely a messenger of truth that is before you, which stands in judgement over you and testifies as to your error. I am called simply to provide this warning, it is Gods judgement that will fall swiftly and without warning. In myself I am a weak man, with many flaws, but the strength is this is I know the Lord and scripture he provided and have hidden it in my heart, it is my souls blood, though I do not spend enough time contemplating it.


But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say. Matt 10:19

I testify to you today, that the words I speak here are given by the Lord, not pre-prepared but come to mind as I read and see what is being said. So be very careful, because I do not speak alone, and these things come from thousands of years ago, but are as true today as when Jesus first spoke them.

OH NO!!!!
the dreaded internet rebuke followed by false humility and ending with the puffing up of oneself and their ego as a supreme helper to those who are blinded by Satan.

Your statement:

So I am no friend of yours.

Tell some of us all we need to know.

 

[Sirk]

Well, I really find the defensiveness exits on both sides....

Absolutely and I am guilt of it as well at times.

 

[Dayo]

I am quite bored with your childlike and insulting behavior towards ALL Charismatics. For the record the scripture you quoted above is 2 Tim 3.16-17 and not 1Tim 3.16-17, so who is scripturally lite?

For the record I posted this verse and you and others never responded to it. The Bible as final authority is implied in scripture, but never stated anywhere, just like the terms trinity, rapture and other Christianese culture terms we like to hold onto, but our not actually found in scripture

Inspiration is not authority and that is the only point willie was attempting to make, but the pharisee in you and another poster, could not see it for the scales in your own eyes.

The word inspiration in the Greek, actually means God breathed and not authority, there are many different renderings for the word authority in the geek, but the largest use of the term in the NT is exousia.

I will leave it for you to study to show yourself approved on what exousia means.Come to full age Chica and stop throwing rocks in your own glass house.

Strong's Concordance

exousia: power to act, authority​

​

​

Original Word: ἐξουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see'-ah)
Short Definition: power, authority, weight
Definition: (a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.HELPS Word-studies
1849 eksousía (from 1537 /ek, "out from," which intensifies 1510/eimí, "to be, being as a right or privilege") – authority, conferredpower; delegated empowerment ("authorization"), operating in adesignated jurisdiction.
In the NT, 1849 /eksousía ("delegated power") refers to the authorityGod gives to His saints – authorizing them to act to the extent they are guided by faith (His revealed word).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from exesti
Definition
power to act, authority
NASB Translation
authorities (7), authority (65), charge (1), control (1), domain (2), dominion (1), jurisdiction (1), liberty (1), power (11), powers (1), right (11).

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 1849[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]exousia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (1832) (in the sense of ability)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Exousia[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2:562,238[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ex-oo-see'-ah [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. 1. leave or permission
2. physical and mental power
   1. the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3. the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
   1. uersally
      1. authority over mankind
   2. specifically
      1. the power of judicial decisions
      2. of authority to manage domestic affairs
   3. metonymically
      1. a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
   4. jurisdiction
      1. one who possesses authority 4c
   5. a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
   6. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
   7. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
      1. the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
   8. the sign of regal authority, a crown

[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] NAS Word Usage - Total: 102[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]authorities 7, authority 65, charge 1, control 1, domain 2, dominion 1, jurisdiction 1, liberty 1, power 11, powers 1, right 11[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Exousia - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Thank you for the new word![/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Sirk]

The truth is that if I say the bible is authoritative and you say it isn't....why would I lose sleep over it? It ain't gonna be me that saves the world anyway.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

This is a stupid argument. The Lord has spoken quite directly in scripture, about His word and its meaning. It is the final authority. What you are arguing here is if a "prophet" stands up and says God is saying this today, even if it contradicts theology, the bible, the apostles, the prophets, that is ok, because God is doing a new thing.

So say the muslims, the mormons, the JW's so go and be a little honest, you are starting a new faith.
To claim you are christian is simply interlectual dishonesty. But that hypocracy can be added to the multitude filling the charismatic "new anointing" theology with open heavens, portals and all the other 3rd heaven crap people are coming up with.

I never stated nor advocated any of those things Peter. I stated Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, which is found in Heb 13.8

I stated the Holy Spirit has the ministry in the earth today and not Jesus which is Found in John 14,15, 16 and all of Acts.

I showed you in Rom 5.5 that Jesus does not pour the love of God into your heart, the Holy Spirit does.

There is no new anointing it has always been here since Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

There are many Charismatics I completely disagree with.
Yet I chose to follow what Acts 5.34-39 says about what IS and what IS NOT of God, while loving them:

[SUP]34 [/SUP]But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. [SUP][u][/SUP]But he was killed, and all who [SUP][v][/SUP]followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. [SUP]37 [/SUP]After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who [SUP][w][/SUP]followed him were scattered. [SUP]38 [/SUP]So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or [SUP][x][/SUP]action is of men, it will be overthrown; [SUP]39 [/SUP]but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

 

[PeterJens]

You speak of dead things with no understanding.

I am strangely puzzled.

Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
John 3:17-18

You will notice this is talking about deeds, actions, things that are evil. You have got confused between righteousness and sin, with a spiritual dimension which somehow gives you greater insight.

Now I go to a charismatic baptist church and 99% of the people there would agree with my statement of faith.
Somewhere along the line you have called this dead. Now that brings judgement on you, plain and simply, not because of who I am, but because of what you are condemning.

When Paul says he preaches christ crucified and nothing else I hope you know what this means?

I now think you simply do not. One of the greatest experiences in my life was when I realised the magnitude of Christ dying for me on the cross, the size of the cost, and how little I knew of this love and what it meant. I resolved to talk of nothing else till I died. This is the gospel unless ofcourse I somehow got a false experience, that I cannot read and understand the bible and what the Holy Spirit convicts me regards sin and acceptance in Jesus.

I now understand you are beyond this truth, and have passed into the 3rd heaven. I am sorry I did not know I was talking to an angelic being, who stands in judgement over ordinary mortals, and condemns them as empty vessels. One day you may execute us, but we will still say the same things, Jesus loves us, and we wish you no harm, only to testify to the work of the Lord on the cross and his gift of the Holy Spirit. But then you have no fear of the Lord, or of doctrine, or of just plain ordinary life.

But I now know you and the spirit you bring, and that is sad, because you have left what God intended for something else. I still do not know what you stand for, but just what you reject, which equally is unclear.

So with nothing to offer, no doctrines to believe in what is you faith based on? The latest preacher you took a fancy to?

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Strong's Concordance

exousia: power to act, authority​

Original Word: ἐξουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see'-ah)
Short Definition: power, authority, weight
Definition: (a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.HELPS Word-studies
1849 eksousía (from 1537 /ek, "out from," which intensifies 1510/eimí, "to be, being as a right or privilege") – authority, conferredpower; delegated empowerment ("authorization"), operating in adesignated jurisdiction.
In the NT, 1849 /eksousía ("delegated power") refers to the authorityGod gives to His saints – authorizing them to act to the extent they are guided by faith (His revealed word).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from exesti
Definition
power to act, authority
NASB Translation
authorities (7), authority (65), charge (1), control (1), domain (2), dominion (1), jurisdiction (1), liberty (1), power (11), powers (1), right (11).

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"] Strong's Number: 1849[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"] Browse Lexicon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]exousia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from (1832) (in the sense of ability)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Exousia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]2:562,238[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]ex-oo-see'-ah [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Noun Feminine[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

1. 1. leave or permission
2. physical and mental power
   1. the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3. the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
   1. uersally
      1. authority over mankind
   2. specifically
      1. the power of judicial decisions
      2. of authority to manage domestic affairs
   3. metonymically
      1. a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
   4. jurisdiction
      1. one who possesses authority 4c
   5. a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
   6. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
   7. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
      1. the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
   8. the sign of regal authority, a crown

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] NAS Word Usage - Total: 102[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]authorities 7, authority 65, charge 1, control 1, domain 2, dominion 1, jurisdiction 1, liberty 1, power 11, powers 1, right 11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Exousia - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Thank you for the new word![/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

You will also find that this form of the word Authority was never used by Paul in 1 or 2 Timothy at all.
We find other forms of the word Authority found in:
1 Tim 1.1
1 Tim 2.2
1 Tim 2.12
1 Tim 6.15

Yet we do not see the word Authority used in 2 Tim 3.16-17. If you look at all the Greek meaning of Authority it does not mean: "inspired" or "inspiration"

2 Tim 3.16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; [SUP]17 [/SUP]so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Why am I splitting this frog hair?

Because if Paul used the term authority elsewhere in 1 & 2 Timothy and that is what he meant in 2 Tim 3.16-17, I think he would have used the word instead of inspired and the verse would have read:

2 Tim 3.16-17
All Scripture is Authority by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; [SUP]17 [/SUP]so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Several here have stated the Bible says it is it's own Authority and used 2 Tim 3.16-17 to stand on that belief.
Paul used the word inspired not authority in this verse but used the word Authority 4 other times in both of the same letters.

The word inspired in the Greek is theopneustos which comes from 2 Greek words theos , which means refers to the things of God and the word pneō , which means to breathe or to blow.

The word has nothing to do with Authority.

DO I believe in the authority of the Bible, yes, but it is implied to me through the word, not stated in black and white. This is the whole point.

For eample, 2 Peter 1.11 tells us that through the knowledge of him[Jesus] and the pwoer of his divine nature, we are granted everything pertaining to life and godliness. Is the Bible the divine natue of Jesus Christ?

Some will say yes, but that is not really true. How do we obtian the divine nature? We come to full knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, where do we get that from? The Word and the Holy Spirit.

It might not be a big deal for some, but when we state things that are truly not in the Bible, we open the door for deception.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

SO what you are really saying is that you do not believe in the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit or that it is his time in the earth now, because Jesus DOES NOT sit at the right hand of the Father and finished his work on earth.

I despise how people who oppose this view want to put words in the mouths of us who express ourselves. There is absolutely nothing in my post that would indicate that any of this is true about what I believe. I will say it plainly: It offends me to be misrepresented with no grounds whatsoever.

Please read my responses to Ember below. I think it will answer your scurrilous statements here as well.

My response in blue ...

I believe any gifts that are authentic originate from God and are given by Him to whom He desires and without the Holy Spirit, we have nothing.

I don't believe anything less than that, either, relative to the Holy Spirit. It actually disturbs me no end that those of you who believe the signs-and-wonders miracles are still valid today always claim those of us who don't believe that either "deny the Holy Spirit" or "don't have the Holy Spirit" which of course calls into question our salvation. Not that you had done that, but it happens.

It is almost as though you don't think the Holy Spirit can act, expect visibly. Others, in other words, must see the result of the Holy Spirit through external miraculous acts. Balderdash.

The reality is, there is no greater gift to man than the Holy Spirit, and nothing outwardly has to be seen in order to prove He is in us. We know the heart change that has taken place, and He makes us want to shout from the rooftops to the glory of the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is quiet, unassuming, does not call attention to Himself. That is why the belief that He makes people talk funny, or utter ridiculous things that often don't come true, or worse -- and again, I know this is not what you mean by what you believe -- jump over pews, roll on the floor laughing or bark like a dog. Those things are not of the Spirit at all, but of a much meaner, lower spirit.

How can there be a greater work than His sealing us in Christ for our future redemption? Or assuring us we belong to Jesus? There isn't. It is confirmation within us, to us personally, that doesn't have to be manifested in nonsense.

Nothing has changed in that respect ...signs and wonders were/are supposed to follow those who believe with the emphasis on the gospel...I make no identity with those who confuse that and seek for things rather than God

I believe 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 proves otherwise. Paul specifically says tongues, prophecy, and knowledge -- which is fresh revelation -- will come to an end. The context of his writing, in the Greek, demands that we put a "sooner than later" aspect on that declaration, and in fact the gifts given only to Christ's apostles and the limited few to whom they passed them on were already dying out. Epaphras almost died at Troas. Could Paul not heal him? Apparently not. You must ask yourself "Why not?"

Knowledge of the type peculiarly givenby the Spirit to some persons only, or that peculiar gift of knowledge of divine things, was going to disappear with the completed works of the Bible -- "the perfect" which actually means "complete" that Paul wrote of in verse ten. You may argue that "the perfect" is Christ, so the gifts last until His return. But the word -- teleioß (teleios) is a unique Greek construct that is an adjective that modifies itself. A form of this word, teleo (teleo) is what Jesus said on the cross: "It is finished!" Jesus will not be "finished" upon His return. He will just be beginning. And He is not a "the" the indicator that the self-modifying adjective-noun is neuter in nature, not masculine nor feminine.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 tells us the gifts cease, and they did, when John penned the last words of his apocalyptic epistle, the Revelation. I want to jump down to the bottom of your post to cover this while I'm on the subject ...

...btw, prophecy in the NT is mainly concerned with speaking forth not meaning future events although sometimes that does happen too.

That's true, but the kind of prophecy Paul spoke of in verse eight. Prophecy before the completion of what we now call the biblical canon was of two types:

• It was a prediction of the future, much as the Old Testament prophets warned of coming judgment, blessing, or difficulty
• It was, in Paul's time, a talent for deciphering the Old Testament prophecies about future events, particularly relating to the prophecies of Jesus as Messiah.

But with the completion of the works of the Bible, neither type was necessary, for the Bible established God's ways and expectations, as well as demonstrating both His grace and His judgment, depending on how those expectations are met. It also properly deciphers the Old Testament prophecies for us, taking the onus of understanding off of us.

with regards to tongues, I believe cessationists are the ones in error...

I realize that's what you believe, but the exegesis of the thirteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians cannot be interpreted any other way. Many try, but they violate every rule of interpretation and translation we have established and come to respect in so doing.

...but I knwo the difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and those who deny such things...unfortuneatly when you try to explain it, you are often told you think you are better or some such lame excuse...

This is contradictory, Ember, and precisely what I see as being dangerous to practice (what I believe to be) no-longer-valid "signs and wonders." Here you say you know the difference between "being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues" and disparage "deniers" such as myself. Then you deny you "think you are better" than those of us who reject tongues and other signs and wonders. Doesn't that strike you as contradictory? It certainly does me, and I'm sorry to say, makes me question the motivation of those who insist there is license to practice these gifts today. Obviously, I don't believe there is.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I am strangely puzzled.

Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
John 3:17-18

You will notice this is talking about deeds, actions, things that are evil. You have got confused between righteousness and sin, with a spiritual dimension which somehow gives you greater insight.

Now I go to a charismatic baptist church and 99% of the people there would agree with my statement of faith.
Somewhere along the line you have called this dead. Now that brings judgement on you, plain and simply, not because of who I am, but because of what you are condemning.

When Paul says he preaches christ crucified and nothing else I hope you know what this means?

I now think you simply do not. One of the greatest experiences in my life was when I realised the magnitude of Christ dying for me on the cross, the size of the cost, and how little I knew of this love and what it meant. I resolved to talk of nothing else till I died. This is the gospel unless ofcourse I somehow got a false experience, that I cannot read and understand the bible and what the Holy Spirit convicts me regards sin and acceptance in Jesus.

I now understand you are beyond this truth, and have passed into the 3rd heaven. I am sorry I did not know I was talking to an angelic being, who stands in judgement over ordinary mortals, and condemns them as empty vessels. One day you may execute us, but we will still say the same things, Jesus loves us, and we wish you no harm, only to testify to the work of the Lord on the cross and his gift of the Holy Spirit. But then you have no fear of the Lord, or of doctrine, or of just plain ordinary life.

But I now know you and the spirit you bring, and that is sad, because you have left what God intended for something else. I still do not know what you stand for, but just what you reject, which equally is unclear.

So with nothing to offer, no doctrines to believe in what is you faith based on? The latest preacher you took a fancy to?

You know what I find very interesting about you?

When you are refuted soundly with the Word, you cannot reply in kind!

You go off on tangents about experiences and feelings, and then prop oyurslef up like a seasoned minister.

It is not what you are saying, that gives you away.

 

[PeterJens]

I never stated nor advocated any of those things Peter. I stated Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, which is found in Heb 13.8

I stated the Holy Spirit has the ministry in the earth today and not Jesus which is Found in John 14,15, 16 and all of Acts.

One thing is certain, the Holy Spirit is easily offended. What I see in your movement is no understanding or restraint, just an idea that anything done by a preacher and people falling over, or laughing without restraint, or barking like a dog, or fainting on the spot proves God must be present. Truth, sincerity, honesty, repentance, integrity no longer matter.

The problem with this, is it is no longer a gospel with a message, it is merely an emotional experience. The theology becomes by partaking you change, there is no need for exergesis, or theology or truth. You may as well just declare yourself hindu, and worship whatever comes into your mind.

I remember meeting a collegue who went to a penticostal mega church. He wanted to witness to me. When I went through the basics of being saved through faith in Jesus, he looked at me as if I was an alien. Now for a simple street preacher and believer this is a sad state the great "spiritual" church has become.

What I have also discovered is those who believe lies very easily take offense and storm off, how dare they suggest we have failed. And then flows the hatred and bitterness.

All I have done is state what the bible says about its authority, the core basis of the gospel and the heresies preached about this gospel. Please tell me how this has insulted you, or caused offence or is wrong?

I am happy to be corrected, but to date I have seen nothing persuasive.

 

[PeterJens]

When you are refuted soundly with the Word, you cannot reply in kind!

I have had this kind of discussion before. One side says, I have soundly refuted you, while the other side does not understand what you are saying because so much is assumed.

What have you refuted? I believe in the work of the Holy Spirit, in the gifts, in speaking in tongues. I do not believe in the ministry of Apostles and prophets today, or that anything in this regard has shown anything of real value.

What I have read and seen is much confusion, sin, lying and falsehood. Now strangely to me, that suggests it is totally wrong. In the 70's I was aware of people being baptised in the Holy Spirit, and saw blessings, but most went extreme and rebelled against simple discipline and normal life, though the love for the Lord was very clear and good.

We have had people in our church come from the Toronto blessing and fail, go off to Vineyard fellowships and Bethel groups, but we know how extreme and off target they become.

But my main concern is basic simple theology and a loss of belief the transforming love in the heart is the gospel itself.
Now many here put people in boxes, which I was called a legalist by one group, until they realised I was not.

So I am puzzled. What do you actually believe? Or have you just bought into your preacher and it is their theology you will parrot. One church I used to go to, a fair number of the congregation had total loyalty to the pastor above the Lord, so they just went where he went.

 

[ember]

Absolutely and I am guilt of it as well at times.

yeah...I think its a fair statement...for both sides

Thanks!

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I despise how people who oppose this view want to put words in the mouths of us who express ourselves. There is absolutely nothing in my post that would indicate that any of this is true about what I believe. I will say it plainly: It offends me to be misrepresented with no grounds whatsoever.

Please read my responses to Ember below. I think it will answer your scurrilous statements here as well.

I don't believe anything less than that, either, relative to the Holy Spirit. It actually disturbs me no end that those of you who believe the signs-and-wonders miracles are still valid today always claim those of us who don't believe that either "deny the Holy Spirit" or "don't have the Holy Spirit" which of course calls into question our salvation. Not that you had done that, but it happens.

It is almost as though you don't think the Holy Spirit can act, expect visibly. Others, in other words, must see the result of the Holy Spirit through external miraculous acts. Balderdash.

The reality is, there is no greater gift to man than the Holy Spirit, and nothing outwardly has to be seen in order to prove He is in us. We know the heart change that has taken place, and He makes us want to shout from the rooftops to the glory of the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is quiet, unassuming, does not call attention to Himself. That is why the belief that He makes people talk funny, or utter ridiculous things that often don't come true, or worse -- and again, I know this is not what you mean by what you believe -- jump over pews, roll on the floor laughing or bark like a dog. Those things are not of the Spirit at all, but of a much meaner, lower spirit.

How can there be a greater work than His sealing us in Christ for our future redemption? Or assuring us we belong to Jesus? There isn't. It is confirmation within us, to us personally, that doesn't have to be manifested in nonsense.

I believe 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 proves otherwise. Paul specifically says tongues, prophecy, and knowledge -- which is fresh revelation -- will come to an end. The context of his writing, in the Greek, demands that we put a "sooner than later" aspect on that declaration, and in fact the gifts given only to Christ's apostles and the limited few to whom they passed them on were already dying out. Epaphras almost died at Troas. Could Paul not heal him? Apparently not. You must ask yourself "Why not?"

Knowledge of the type peculiarly givenby the Spirit to some persons only, or that peculiar gift of knowledge of divine things, was going to disappear with the completed works of the Bible -- "the perfect" which actually means "complete" that Paul wrote of in verse ten. You may argue that "the perfect" is Christ, so the gifts last until His return. But the word -- teleioß (teleios) is a unique Greek construct that is an adjective that modifies itself. A form of this word, teleo (teleo) is what Jesus said on the cross: "It is finished!" Jesus will not be "finished" upon His return. He will just be beginning. And He is not a "the" the indicator that the self-modifying adjective-noun is neuter in nature, not masculine nor feminine.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 tells us the gifts cease, and they did, when John penned the last words of his apocalyptic epistle, the Revelation. I want to jump down to the bottom of your post to cover this while I'm on the subject ...

That's true, but the kind of prophecy Paul spoke of in verse eight. Prophecy before the completion of what we now call the biblical canon was of two types:

• It was a prediction of the future, much as the Old Testament prophets warned of coming judgment, blessing, or difficulty
• It was, in Paul's time, a talent for deciphering the Old Testament prophecies about future events, particularly relating to the prophecies of Jesus as Messiah.

But with the completion of the works of the Bible, neither type was necessary, for the Bible established God's ways and expectations, as well as demonstrating both His grace and His judgment, depending on how those expectations are met. It also properly deciphers the Old Testament prophecies for us, taking the onus of understanding off of us.

I realize that's what you believe, but the exegesis of the thirteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians cannot be interpreted any other way. Many try, but they violate every rule of interpretation and translation we have established and come to respect in so doing.

This is contradictory, Ember, and precisely what I see as being dangerous to practice (what I believe to be) no-longer-valid "signs and wonders." Here you say you know the difference between "being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues" and disparage "deniers" such as myself. Then you deny you "think you are better" than those of us who reject tongues and other signs and wonders. Doesn't that strike you as contradictory? It certainly does me, and I'm sorry to say, makes me question the motivation of those who insist there is license to practice these gifts today. Obviously, I don't believe there is.

We never said we followed after sins, wonders and miracles you all said we did. We never said We had a special power you don't, We never questioned your salvation because you do not have the Holy Spirit! In fact, in another post I stated those that that did these things were wrong and it was untrue. We never said we were better than you, you did. I never once brought up tongues, you did! I nee said the Holy Spirit was loud, obnoxious or any such thing, you did!

You and every other person are on the offensive here, we are not defending signs, miracles and wonders, we are defending the power and anointing of the HOly Spirit and understand that it is here for today.

Nobody put words in your mouth, you state only part of the Holy Spirit is for today, fine, this means you are only believing part of the Bible, I did not put those words in your mouth it is what you stated. The anointing and power and ministry of the Holy Spirit stopped and the Bible is all we need pertaining to life and godliness, yet that is not at all what the Bible says. It says we were granted those things through the power of his divine nature. Jesus' divine nature were not his God powers. He laid those down as Phil 2 says he did. His divine nature is found in Acts 10.38

You need to check yourself here bro, the greatest gift ever given was eternal life through Christ Jesus, not the Holy Spirit

Maybe you should understand the 2 different works the Holy Spirit does in a Believers life.
He comes within and upon. Scripture says as much. It is the upon work, that people get tied in knots over or never see and they never see, because they really do not want to. Just as the children of Israel had a chance to see God, but refused to and told their Pastor Moses, nope you can talk for us.

We are not going to convince each other and that is fine VW.

 

[ember]

Re: Mike Bickle's "Israel Mandate"

Originally Posted by Viligant_Warrior

You use a term like "Josh Degenerate" and then decry things "getting ugly"?

I was not the one that used that term VW...galahad was the one that said that to Joshua...I took exception to that term


I don't call people names here

Page 5 at the top you will see that galahad called Joshua 'degenerate'...keep reading and you will see that I took exception to that name and then...THEN...I said things were getting ugly and then galahad turned his charm on me....at which point I put him on ignore...etc


VW...how about responding to this? I just want to make it clear I did no name calling here...

I 'll respond to your response (tongue twister) later...no time for it now...​

 

[Sirk]

I for one don't discount the power of the Holy Spirit nor do I discount the authority of scripture. The anointing of the Holy Spirit and people being moved by it need to be held accountable by scripture. Otherwise you got people telling you that the Holy Spirit told you to tell them to drink cyanide laced cool aid out in the jungle with no avenue to refute it. The holy scriptures are a check and balance against that kind of nonsense that men drunk with thier own self importance will dream up.