Modalism vs Trinitarian
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Gospel reductionism, I haven't heard that before either.
I haven't been dishonest at all. I ''jumped'' into the thread if you like to put the view across that the greatest power, and most rapid growth ever seen in the Christian church was before the scholar and theologian came along with their doctrines and doctrinal demands
I haven't been dishonest at all. I ''jumped'' into the thread if you like to put the view across that the greatest power, and most rapid growth ever seen in the Christian church was before the scholar and theologian came along with their doctrines and doctrinal demands
Thank you
I like this verse:
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do Luke 10:21
Of course I would quote that, I am not that learned
I like this verse:
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do Luke 10:21
Of course I would quote that, I am not that learned
But I think it's important we stay focused on the actual intent of the verse.
The intent of the verse doesn't mean study or education is NOT important,
it only means our FIRST PRIORITY is to keep a RIGHT ATTITUDE
before God... the attitude of a child trusting in his father.
Having a child-like attitude is NOT the opposite of study & knowledge:
1. Knowledge can fill us with pride, and effect our attitude.
1Co 8:1
Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
We all struggle with pride daily, and knowledge seems to make this worse.
2. So do we just avoid knowledge, and avoid study?
No.
3. We can't avoid study, we are commanded to study.
2Timoth 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
4. We can't avoid or neglect knowledge, we are told to acquire knowledge.
2Peter 1:5
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Corinthian 8:7
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
1Corinthian 1:5
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
5. We aren't even to have ZEAL for God, unless we have knowledge,
and know how to have ZEAL intelligently.
Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
5. Even LOVE must be guided by KNOWLEDGE
Philippians 1:9
And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
6. So what do we do?
We MUST study and gain knowledge, because we are commanded...
but we must also struggle daily to put down our pride,
and walk with God as a trusting child.
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I found this to be an interesting read:
The Illogic of the Trinity | theLogicality
Trinitarianism is the established, orthodox teaching of the Godhead; and by far the most prevalent view of the Godhead in all of Christendom.
The majority of Christians, from the inception of their faith, are taught that God is a single, infinite, divine essence (the Godhead) composed of three individual, divine persons (Father, Son, and Spirit). They’re baptized and taught to pray accordingly – in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
However, approaching the doctrine of the Trinity from a logical perspective reveals a number of inconsistencies, it seems.
The first thing to be considered is that God is an infinite, transcendent being. By definition, there can only be one infinite being. The presence of one simply leaves no room for any others.
The doctrine of the trinity presupposes either of two options, concerning the nature of God:
With the second option, it seems that another logical impossibility has been proposed; this time requiring three infinite entities to fulfill a single divine essence. The problem with this assertion is that there can be no more than one infinite entity. Perhaps this could be amended to state that there is but one, infinite, divine person containing a single, divine essence Who, in His infinite power and Wisdom, is capable of simultaneously operating in three distinct modes of operation. But then you’d have Monotheism.
This is further complicated when the Logos is considered, seeing as how the Logos is the singular mind of God, which was manifest in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.
Are there three divine persons sharing in a single divine mind and essence in the Godhead? Be that the case, would that not make those persons three distinct manifestations and modes of operation for a singular divine mind and person?
Do the three, individual divine persons all emanate from the Logos? If so, wouldn’t that make this a case of Divine Dissociative Identity Disorder (DDID); in which a single God contains three individual personalities, despite being a singular mind?
Another potential option could be that only the Father is infinite, while the Son and Spirit are finite. However, this would destroy the Trinitarian conviction that the three persons in the Godhead are eternally coequal in nature. If only the Father (or any other member of the Trinity, for that matter) is infinite, then it’s logically impossible for Him to share His power equally with the other two.
The doctrine of the Trinity severely convolutes our perception of a reasonable, absolutely simple God.
Occam’s razor is a guiding scientific and philosophical principle. It’s commonly stated as, “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.” I personally favor the phrasing attributed to Occam himself, “It is futile to do with more things that which can be done with fewer.”
Would it be simpler for God to exist in a state of plurality, in which He is composed of three individual persons; or for Him to exist in a state of singularity, merely revealing Himself to humanity in three distinctive ways so that we may understand Him better?
I would posit that the doctrine of the Trinity is illogical; and because God is a logical God, it cannot reasonably be ascribed to Him. If any disagree, the comments are open for discourse. Simply keep in mind that any comments containing the word “heretic” will be held in the moderation queue.
The doctrine of the trinity is, perhaps, the least challenged of all Christian dogmas; and that’s exactly what it is: dogma. In this piece’s parent article, I confronted the logical presuppositions that must be made by the doctrine. Here, I’ll take it on at face value. I would urge any readers biased towards the trinity to read this piece as objectively as possible.
The doctrine of the Trinity holds that three distinct persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) are united as one God (the Godhead). They are each wholly God. The three are not parts of God, nor are they separate Gods. Though distinct, they are intrinsically united in composite unity. Despite the composite nature of this unity, the three are one God; a single entity. The resultant Godhead is not a tritheistic construct, nor is He (singular) a three-part God.
This is the triune god.
One needn’t be a master mathematician or veteran logician to see the inconsistencies within this dogma.a All that’s required is the most basic arithmetic to recognize that three entities cannot be one entity. The first inconsistency in the doctrine of the trinity is mathematical, as, regardless of how hard you try, three cannot equate to one.
The second inconsistency is logical, having to do with identity. Identity is a transitive relation, that is to say: if A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Thusly: if the Father = God, and God = the Son, then the Father = the Son. It works the same way if you change it around: if the A is identical with B, and C is identical with B, then A is identical with C. Likewise: if the Father is identical with God, and the Spirit is identical with God, then the Father is identical with the Spirit. It’s not blasphemy, it’s simple logic.
For every verse used by Trinitarians to support the Trinity, there’s a logical interpretation that doesn’t require the shutting down of one’s critical faculties and the introduction of a multiplicity of divine persons that isn’t implied in the first place. In all cases, context is key.
The Catholic Church has circumvented this issue by classifying the trinity as a strict mystery[1]; something that can be fully understood by God and God alone.b The Catholic concept of a strict mystery isn’t found in the scriptures, and so the Word has not classified the Trinity as such. All the Catholic Church, with its multitude of cardinals and priests, has managed to do is acknowledge the issue without answering it. In rendering it a sin to question the trinity, they’ve committed the intellectual sin of logical contradiction.c
The singular fact that human beings have the capacity to reason and comprehend logic is evidence enough that God is a logical God. Indeed, He, being the absolute first cause, is the root of logic itself. That being so, He must be intrinsically logical. As such, He cannot do, or be, anything illogical; as it would contradict His infinite nature.
How then could an infinitely logical God possibly be triune in nature? That would make Him illogical to the third power; intrinsically contradictory in His very being. Such a paradoxical entity would be about as likely to exist as a square circle, or a righteous atrocity.
The logicality of God precludes the concept of a divine trinity, duality, or any other multiplicity of divine persons. It’s infinitely more logical to conclude, with robust scriptural support, that God is a singular divine person Who is able to concurrently fulfill the roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is all-powerful, is He not?
The Illogic of the Trinity | theLogicality
Trinitarianism is the established, orthodox teaching of the Godhead; and by far the most prevalent view of the Godhead in all of Christendom.
The majority of Christians, from the inception of their faith, are taught that God is a single, infinite, divine essence (the Godhead) composed of three individual, divine persons (Father, Son, and Spirit). They’re baptized and taught to pray accordingly – in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
However, approaching the doctrine of the Trinity from a logical perspective reveals a number of inconsistencies, it seems.
The first thing to be considered is that God is an infinite, transcendent being. By definition, there can only be one infinite being. The presence of one simply leaves no room for any others.
An infinite entity is an entity that has no beginning and no end. This entity is the transcendent absolute. There can be no more than one, as to have two infinite entities would require two entities with neither beginning nor ending. One cannot end and the other cannot begin.
Additionally, God is the Logos. He is logical by nature, and logic itself stems from His nature. He is inherently non-contradictory, and eternally immutable. God is a logical God, and as such cannot do anything illogical.
The doctrine of the trinity presupposes either of two options, concerning the nature of God:
- That God (the infinite being) is a singular, infinite divine essence composed of three finite, divine persons (Father, Son, and Spirit).
- That God is a singular, infinite divine essence composed of three infinite, divine persons.
With the second option, it seems that another logical impossibility has been proposed; this time requiring three infinite entities to fulfill a single divine essence. The problem with this assertion is that there can be no more than one infinite entity. Perhaps this could be amended to state that there is but one, infinite, divine person containing a single, divine essence Who, in His infinite power and Wisdom, is capable of simultaneously operating in three distinct modes of operation. But then you’d have Monotheism.
This is further complicated when the Logos is considered, seeing as how the Logos is the singular mind of God, which was manifest in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.
Are there three divine persons sharing in a single divine mind and essence in the Godhead? Be that the case, would that not make those persons three distinct manifestations and modes of operation for a singular divine mind and person?
Do the three, individual divine persons all emanate from the Logos? If so, wouldn’t that make this a case of Divine Dissociative Identity Disorder (DDID); in which a single God contains three individual personalities, despite being a singular mind?
Another potential option could be that only the Father is infinite, while the Son and Spirit are finite. However, this would destroy the Trinitarian conviction that the three persons in the Godhead are eternally coequal in nature. If only the Father (or any other member of the Trinity, for that matter) is infinite, then it’s logically impossible for Him to share His power equally with the other two.
The doctrine of the Trinity severely convolutes our perception of a reasonable, absolutely simple God.
Occam’s razor is a guiding scientific and philosophical principle. It’s commonly stated as, “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.” I personally favor the phrasing attributed to Occam himself, “It is futile to do with more things that which can be done with fewer.”
Would it be simpler for God to exist in a state of plurality, in which He is composed of three individual persons; or for Him to exist in a state of singularity, merely revealing Himself to humanity in three distinctive ways so that we may understand Him better?
I would posit that the doctrine of the Trinity is illogical; and because God is a logical God, it cannot reasonably be ascribed to Him. If any disagree, the comments are open for discourse. Simply keep in mind that any comments containing the word “heretic” will be held in the moderation queue.
The doctrine of the trinity is, perhaps, the least challenged of all Christian dogmas; and that’s exactly what it is: dogma. In this piece’s parent article, I confronted the logical presuppositions that must be made by the doctrine. Here, I’ll take it on at face value. I would urge any readers biased towards the trinity to read this piece as objectively as possible.
The doctrine of the Trinity holds that three distinct persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) are united as one God (the Godhead). They are each wholly God. The three are not parts of God, nor are they separate Gods. Though distinct, they are intrinsically united in composite unity. Despite the composite nature of this unity, the three are one God; a single entity. The resultant Godhead is not a tritheistic construct, nor is He (singular) a three-part God.
This is the triune god.
One needn’t be a master mathematician or veteran logician to see the inconsistencies within this dogma.a All that’s required is the most basic arithmetic to recognize that three entities cannot be one entity. The first inconsistency in the doctrine of the trinity is mathematical, as, regardless of how hard you try, three cannot equate to one.
The second inconsistency is logical, having to do with identity. Identity is a transitive relation, that is to say: if A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Thusly: if the Father = God, and God = the Son, then the Father = the Son. It works the same way if you change it around: if the A is identical with B, and C is identical with B, then A is identical with C. Likewise: if the Father is identical with God, and the Spirit is identical with God, then the Father is identical with the Spirit. It’s not blasphemy, it’s simple logic.
For every verse used by Trinitarians to support the Trinity, there’s a logical interpretation that doesn’t require the shutting down of one’s critical faculties and the introduction of a multiplicity of divine persons that isn’t implied in the first place. In all cases, context is key.
The Catholic Church has circumvented this issue by classifying the trinity as a strict mystery[1]; something that can be fully understood by God and God alone.b The Catholic concept of a strict mystery isn’t found in the scriptures, and so the Word has not classified the Trinity as such. All the Catholic Church, with its multitude of cardinals and priests, has managed to do is acknowledge the issue without answering it. In rendering it a sin to question the trinity, they’ve committed the intellectual sin of logical contradiction.c
The singular fact that human beings have the capacity to reason and comprehend logic is evidence enough that God is a logical God. Indeed, He, being the absolute first cause, is the root of logic itself. That being so, He must be intrinsically logical. As such, He cannot do, or be, anything illogical; as it would contradict His infinite nature.
How then could an infinitely logical God possibly be triune in nature? That would make Him illogical to the third power; intrinsically contradictory in His very being. Such a paradoxical entity would be about as likely to exist as a square circle, or a righteous atrocity.
The logicality of God precludes the concept of a divine trinity, duality, or any other multiplicity of divine persons. It’s infinitely more logical to conclude, with robust scriptural support, that God is a singular divine person Who is able to concurrently fulfill the roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is all-powerful, is He not?
The trinity is an eclipse of the Son. An eclipse is when something gets between you and the sun; it gets in the way. The trinity gets between you and the Son.
It gets in the way.
Rev. Johnny James
It gets in the way.
Rev. Johnny James
There's an enormous problem with this (and as I've said before): If all one needs to do is believe that Jesus is, in some round-a-bout sense, the "Son of God" with disregard of the remainder of things the NT has to say about Him then the authors of the NT wasted their time combating many myths/untruths about Christ. What would have been the point for Paul, or any other to write entire letters which entail so much detail about the person and being of Jesus Christ, if all that one needs to believe is that He is, in some sense, the "Son of God"? One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God to the extent that the Apostles also believed and whom they discuss in so much detail throughout the NT, or else your view of Jesus as the "Son of God" is distorted.
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We absolutely shouldn't view the words of Christ as insufficient, but with that said, nor should we cherry-pick the words of Jesus (and no disrespect, but this seems to be exactly what you're doing). Should we view the words of the Apostles (who were inspired by the Holy Spirit) as insufficient, thereby nullifying the NT?
The Apostles tell us that the Son of God is the one who molded the universe with His very own hands (Heb 1.1-3, 8-12), yet you are inclined to tell us that this is irrelevant when it is essential to knowing Jesus as the Son of God.
This is just one example, I could expand on this further.
The Apostles tell us that the Son of God is the one who molded the universe with His very own hands (Heb 1.1-3, 8-12), yet you are inclined to tell us that this is irrelevant when it is essential to knowing Jesus as the Son of God.
This is just one example, I could expand on this further.
Do you think a person with these views will make it to Heaven?
"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity.... Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. 'For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in me'."[SUP][24][/SUP] Yet, Jesus is not treated as synonymous with God''
"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity.... Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. 'For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in me'."[SUP][24][/SUP] Yet, Jesus is not treated as synonymous with God''
It's a possibility. But I'm not too sure exactly what you're inferring here with this citation of Dinoysius. Dionysius was a major opponent of one of the earliest heresies in the church known as Sabellianism, and here, he is speaking about how Jesus is not synonymous with God (the Father) contra the Sabellian claim that Jesus was "one" with the Father in person (hence the phrase he uses, "divine unity").
But with that said, even if one adheres to an orthodox view of Jesus, that does not mean they are going to heaven. It's much more than believing in Jesus' divinity, but the totality of what Scripture says of Jesus, and as a result, ones life transforming as a result.
But with that said, even if one adheres to an orthodox view of Jesus, that does not mean they are going to heaven. It's much more than believing in Jesus' divinity, but the totality of what Scripture says of Jesus, and as a result, ones life transforming as a result.
Will I have your grace?
I need prayers to be healed! I gor son flu (it´s not a cold) since I´m working with wood and someone here brought those virus the place I am.
I woked up at 3 am (aprox) and, more than coughing and having a headache, I´m home sick...
Thanks in advance for whomever I might get such a GRACE.
I need prayers to be healed! I gor son flu (it´s not a cold) since I´m working with wood and someone here brought those virus the place I am.
I woked up at 3 am (aprox) and, more than coughing and having a headache, I´m home sick...
Thanks in advance for whomever I might get such a GRACE.