Mormons / Latter Day Saints

Dan_473 · Aug 21, 2014

I don't think all Christians believe in the Trinity... God knows for sure... I've heard that the lds church doesn't have a creed... I'm not sure how that works in practice...

Dan_473 · Aug 21, 2014

daniel606 said:

Sounds like you came from a nice family. The Mormon church is a family, it is like the family of God. All churches are like a family, I'm not sure why that is a problem. Is it harder to pull away from a family than an organization? Is that the problem?

I did watch the video, and from just a wanna-be scholar of the BOM, I would tell the Living Hope Ministries that there search for truth was short and one sided, which means they did not tell the whole truth. The only people interviewed were people that shared their view. Even the so-called LDS scholars are nothing more than anti-Mormon advocates. Google their names and find out about them. Murphy and Wilson are classic shut-your-eyes-and-mouth-to-any-positive-evidence-about-the-BOM type of guys, and give you only the side of the picture that will fill their agenda, and with mockery and haughtiness and a smuggish attitude, they completely ignore updated scholarship that lends light to positive BOM evidence.

If you left the church because of this real bad video of the BOM, you must not have had a very strong testimony in the LDS church to start with, regardless of your good background. I'm sorry that you haven't read anything on the internet that is positive and gives interesting evidence of things in Mesoamerica that exonerates Joseph Smith. He did translate some very interesting pieces of information that critics have laughed at since 1830 when it was published. Many of those laughable items have been found archaeologically and have proven to be the truth. There are others that still have not been found yet. The fact is, only about 5-8% of all the Mayan and Olmec ruins have been excavated. Give it a few more years, and the last few items will be found and proved.

Let me give you a couple of items that critics in 1830-today laughed and still laugh at Joseph for, that has proven to be true:

1) The BOM says that the Jaredites (Olmec) and Lehi's family (Nephites) came to the Americas by ship. This was shear nonsense in 1830. It was shear unadulterated nonsense up to about 10 years ago. Everybody in the sciences knew that man came to the Americas over the Bering Straight when it iced up eons ago. Nobody in their right mind, especially a 22 year old snot-nosed kid from the backwoods of New York would ever think or write anything to the contrary. They would be drumed out of their scientific position in a split second and left for dead on the side of the road. That's just what happened to Joseph Smith, he was laughed to scorn for making up this ship adventure from the other side of the world. How stupid could he be, and he wrote it so everyone could laught louder. Then about 10 years ago, when archaeologists and other scientists had discovered so much evidence to the contrary that they no longer could hold the line, the news broke that North and South America was partially populated by people from the other side of the world that came in ships. The National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City has a beautiful tapestry that depicts the first people to populate Mexico (the Olmec peoples) coming out of a ship that came on shore around Veracruz Mexico.

2) Joseph Smith said he found the gold plates in a stone box. What, gold plates, stone box? In 1830 this was monstrously funny. Why would anyone write on metal plates? We have never seen plates of metal, surely this is funny stuff, and that stone box, have you ever seen a stone (ha ha) box? Today, however, stone boxes are found all over Mesoamerica and metal plates of all metals, even gold are being found all over the world and Mesoamerica, unknown in 1830.

Interesting things are read in the BOM, but I would not bet against it. It proves itself, little by little every year. I suspect the reason it has to be this way is that we must have faith and prove our faith, and see our faith grow as more and more ridiculous things that Joseph Smith said come true.

Here's the BOM challenge: If the BOM is true, as Joseph says it is, then we gain a strong second witness (the Bible being the first) that Jesus is the Christ and the Savior of the world and died for us on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
That he was resurrected and stands by the Father in the heavens and now we can look forward to the resurrection also and life everlasting with him.
Secondly, that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of Jesus Christ and was called to restore the Church of Jesus Christ in our Day.
Thirdly, there has been a never-ending line of prophets since 1820 and a never-ending quorum of 12 apostles since 1835. The apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone makes up the foundations of the Mormon church.
This is the foundation of the church specified by the Bible in Ephesians 2:20. It now exists again today. Jesus giving information once again to his prophet and the apostles directing the ministry among men again. That is why the Mormon church is the fastest growing world-wide church today.

So the BOM is extremely important to the world, especially the Muslim world. They don't trust the Bible as they should, but here is another companion volume that also testifies in the same way that Jesus is the real Son of God and not just a good man or prophet of God. This volume of scripture comes from 7,000 miles away from Jerusalem, with the same message.
It is interesting to watch a Muslim when I put the Bible in my right hand and the BOM in my left and declare that these 2 people who did not know each other and were separated by 7,000 miles, came up with the same exact message about the Lord Jesus Christ. They both testify that they saw him and know he is real. The Muslims don't know quite how to react. It is almost a frightening moment to them, that something just put a chink in their Muslim armor.

So read and pray and be amazed, the BOM is not going away, and it will just get more and more valuable to the world as the days pass.

I wouldn't recommend anyone become Mormon... At the same time, I will say that on the internet I've come across lds apologists who are well informed, logical, and not at all bury your head in the sand types... I also say that to be fair, ask for the same degree of evidence... Or whatever you ask for... from all documents you consider holy, or are presented with... If high degree for one, then high for all...

Dan_473 · Aug 21, 2014

oldernotwiser said:

VCO said:

One thing that might go along with that idea... My wife and I decided to be happy earning only a small amount of money... This allows us to not be net tax payers... So we don't feel as responsible for how tax money is spent...

Dan_473 · Aug 21, 2014

VCO said:

Flamingspirit, please COME to the real Jesus Christ. I guarantee you the Mormon Jesus is a false Christ. I KNOW the REAL JESUS CHRIST intimately, and you can too, and I want to introduce you too HIM. But I cannot push you through that Narrow Gate, I can only call to you to COME. You have to choose to COME. You have to want HIM in Control of your life.

I am not closed off, I follow the most Narrow Minded man that ever lived. The JESUS CHRIST of the Bible, who said:

John 14:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

NO other Jesus Christ can save you. ONLY the Jesus Christ of the Bible. AND there are many False Christs. HE SAID SO.

I want to share that TRUE Jesus Christ with you. How is that NOT LOVE?

Jesus narrow minded? I can see that in some passages like the one you posted... Broad in others... I think Jesus has a very broad view of what's allowable on the sabbath...

daniel606 · Aug 21, 2014

VCO, I am intrigued by your statement that you know JESUS CHRIST intimately. I believe that a man can know Jesus intimately. So since you do, I have a question that I would like to ask you about Jesus:

How did Jesus become Divine? or how did Jesus receive Divinity? This is a biblical discussion. You may make a statement and then back it up by scripture or quote a scripture and then make a statement. Thank you.

daniel606 · Aug 21, 2014

I like this kind of thinking. Your wife must be a wonderful person to agree to forgo luxury in order to aspire to higher ideals.
May the Lord bless your decisions.

daniel606 · Aug 21, 2014

That's what I have been saying all along. All Christians do not believe in the Trinity. It took hundreds of years and a lot of blood was spilt and a lot of politics for the Trinity Doctrine to win the day over the Arian Doctrine. Even today 1700 years later, there is still a large % of Christians that do not believe in the Trinity. Then you take those that do believe in the Trinity and you will find much division among that group as to how they believe the Trinity acutally functions.

My point is that it is confusing to me that I am not considered a Christian by VCO, but he would consider Catholicism Christian. I can bet that if VCO went point by point, his belief vs Catholic, he would become very frustrated, very fast. How then, are they still considered Christians and me not a Christian?

I did ask VCO a question about the Divinity of Christ on Post #225. Please chime in on that question if you wish.

VCO · Aug 21, 2014

daniel606 said:

He always was DIVINE, the spiritual part of Jesus is the Eternal GOD, the ONLY GOD there is, in HEAVEN and the entire physical realm of universes.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."

Exodus 8:10 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And he said, “Tomorrow.” Moses said, “Be it as you say, so that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
[SUP]5 [/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

Matthew 28:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name {Singular} of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, {Three are one name, one and ONLY one GOD.}

Colossians 2:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, {The body of Jesus is fully Man, while the Spirit of Jesus is the Eternal GOD who has ALWAYS EXISTED.}

Hebrews 2:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But we do see Jesus—made lower than the angels for a short time {33 years.} so that by God’s grace He might taste death for everyone—crowned with glory and honor because of His suffering in death.

GOD IS ETERNAL AND THEREFORE CANNOT DIE. YET, God said the highest form of love is when someone lays down HIS life for a friend. THEREFORE how is GOD going to show that kind of LOVE? HE through the part of HIMSELF that is known as the Holy Spirit, created in the womb of Mary, a body that the Part of HIMSELF that is known as the SON, could enter and thereby have a body that HE, GOD HIMSELF, could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS friends. If that is not EXACTLY what happened, then GOD'S LOVE is less than what a human can do.

Why do I believe there can be a TRIUNE BEING? Because YOU were created in the image of GOD, and YOU are a Triune Being, three parts that make up ONE human being. You are Body, Soul, and Spirit, YET you are only ONE human being.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Flamingspirit · Aug 21, 2014

VCO said:

Where do you get the insane idea that I am trying to symbolically kill you. I am trying to share the Real Jesus Christ with you. How is that NOT LOVE.

NOW you said something above that showed me where your confusion is. Son of GOD does NOT MEAN OFFSPRING of GOD.

In the Jewish and Hebrew traditions the father at some point in his life would designate WHO was going to inherit all that the father owned. He could give it all to one of his sons, but he did not have to. If the father was displeased with all of his sons, he could give those inheritance rights to a servant even. It ALWAYS HAD TO GO TO A MALE, because women in Israel were NOT allowed to own property. For this example let us say the father's name was Joshua. This Joshua did not think any of his sons were worthy to carry on the family dynasty; so he named his most trustworthy servant to be his heir. FROM THAT VERY MOMENT ON THAT SERVANT WOULD HAVE THE LEGAL INHERITANCE TITLE, "Son of Joshua". It is the same as the Birthright Title that Jacob bought from his brother Esau for bread and lentil stew. It's purpose is NOT to designate who is offspring, but rather WHO has the right to inherit everything the father has. Son of GOD is exactly the same thing, a Legal Inheritance Title, that designates HE is the one with the right to inherit everything the Father has, INCLUDING HIS DEITY.

This same passing of the Birthright Title or "Son of" Title to someone outside the blood family is in Scripture. I will explain the two most famous occurances. Joseph apparently died before Jesus went to the cross, because Mary is sent to live with John after Jesus died. SO, MARY being a woman, she could not inherit the Property of Joseph. There seems to be strong evidence that Jesus was the one Joseph named "Son of Joseph", as the inheritance TITLE even though Jesus was not an offspring of Joseph.

John 1:45 (ASV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jesus is not Offspring of Joseph, YET HE has the inheritance Title "son of Joseph". That being the case, Jesus would have had to pass the inheritance title to some other male. WHO though? One of his brothers? NO it was John! All it took to pass on the inheritance title, making it legal and binding was two or three wishes, when the heir of the Property spoke his wishes, even if it was on his death bed.

John 19:25-27 (ASV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved {John}, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold, thy mother! And from that hour the disciple{John} took her unto his own home.

THERE IT IS, the passing of the Birthright Title or the "Son of Joseph" inheritance Title. It does not say it, but Jewish Tradition tells us the John in that statement from Jesus, received the "Son of Joseph" inheritance Title. AND the two or three witnesses were present, THEREFORE it is legally binding. John became the heir to the Property of Joseph, the step-father of Jesus. THUS John could sell the property to help support Mary. THEREFORE, non-offspring in the Jewish way of life can LEGALLY have the Title "SON of", without being any kind of offspring.

Son should not be hard to understand. And if you believe my Christ is false because I don't give credence to a trinity, you then see me not saved as you are. That is hate and murder. Again you are made in His image. It takes a male and a female to make a son.

notuptome · Aug 21, 2014

Flamingspirit said:

Who is your Christ if He is not God?

You are quick to accuse others of hate but what of your hate for God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Flamingspirit · Aug 21, 2014

notuptome said:

I love all and see all as I would see myself. I just love good old common sense when choosing knowledge to grow from. I know my God.

I also no that Christ will forgive a person for what they think of Him. You guys not so much. I have 3 children and none of them are my age. I also know again that if takes a male AND a female to make a son. God is the same.

daniel606 · Aug 21, 2014

So your understanding of the Trinity is that it is made up of a body of flesh and bone and spirit. The flesh and bone part of the body of the Trinity is called Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The spirit part of the Trinity is called God the Father. The other spirit part of the Trinity is called the Holy Sprit. The 3 persons of the Trinity are consubstantial, which means they are inseparable, and can never to be divided. They are one and will never be otherwise.

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but it seems to follow what you have written. Please correct this if necessary.
Thanks

notuptome · Aug 21, 2014

Flamingspirit said:

Not at all true. That which seems impossible to man is possible to God. God made man then made the woman from man. So God did not need male and female to make a Son.

The flesh and bone of Jesus was no more than a vessel which God fashioned for Himself that He might redeem fallen man back to Himself.

So Who is your Jesus? The God incarnate of the bible or something of your own creation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Flamingspirit · Aug 21, 2014

notuptome said:

This is going nowhere. I don't believe in a trinity. Am I doomed? According to you I am. That is hate and this murder. Salvation was of the Jews in Jesus' day. I'm sure then they had no concept of a trinity.

daniel606 · Aug 21, 2014

The Hebrew name you give this Eternal GOD is Yahweh. Am I right?

notuptome · Aug 21, 2014

Flamingspirit said:

What part of this do you not grasp? The Jews knew of Jehovah correct? The Jews knew of the Spirit of God correct? The Jews knew that Jehovah was sending Messiah correct? You could argue that they never put the pieces together but they were there.

Salvation was to the Jews first and salvation came through a Jewish Messiah so what's your point?

Jesus was and is Jehovah God in the flesh. The eternal and Omni present God is existing in all of eternity eternally.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Flamingspirit · Aug 21, 2014

notuptome said:

All of that sounds wonderful but I don't see it as you do. He said He was ALONE. The difference between me and you is that I won't condemn you for how you see it. We both have knowledge. It is only love that will quell this dispute.

VCO · Aug 21, 2014

Flamingspirit said:

You will have a chance to tell Him that someday. But Honest, if I did not LOVE you like my LORD loves you, I would not be willing to waste my time on this discussion. But instead I am burdened to LEAD you to the Truth, and the TRUTH is that there is NO male involved to cause the offspring that we Know as the Son of GOD. IT IS A POSITIONAL TITLE that does not mean offspring. GOD created that body in the Womb of Mary, so that PART of HIMSELF could enter it, so that HE could die for us.

Revelation 3:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

LET HIM INTO YOUR HEART, PLEASE. He will not kick the door in.

Each personage within the Holy Trinity has a different Function, but they are co-equally GOD.

The Father's Function within that singular DEITY is to WILL what HE wants done.
The Function of the Messiah has always been to DO the WILL of the Father, as if HE was a SON, even though He is equally GOD.
The Holy Spirit's Function withing that singular DEITY has always been to enable created beings to do the Will of the Father, starting with Believing.
YET they are in REALITY ONE GOD, the ONLY GOD THAT EXISTS ANYWHERE.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Your Mind of the Flesh functions like the GOD the FATHER does, it WILLS what it wants done. If it wants a drink of water, it is ALWAYS your body that obediently picks the glass up doing the will of the Shot Caller you mind, therefore you body functions just LIKE GOD the SON.
AND once you are born again, it is ALWAYS the human spirit taking the lead to do the will of GOD.

Three different Parts, with Three different Functions, YET only ONE HUMAN BEING. WHY is a Holy, All Powerful, Triune Being so hard for you to understand?

Genesis 1:26 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

You are so like Saul, kicking against the goads:

Branches from these common bushes in Israel, used as a switch, would have made a very effective cattle prod.

Acts 26:12-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

VCO · Aug 21, 2014

daniel606 said:

THAT is one of many of OUR GOD's names, but there still is ONLY ONE GOD AND NEVER WILL BE A SECOND GOD. What are the different names of God and what do they mean? There is no such thing as a second god, NONE at all. When Jesus spoke to the Sanhedrin and called them gods, He was referring to the nature of their Positions as Jewish Supreme Court Justices. THEIR DECISIONS were FINAL, as if they were gods. ALL other gods come from the imaginations of MEN, and Joseph Smith was an expert at it.

The NAME GOD seems to prefer is the one He told to MOSES, "I AM".

John 8:57-59 (HCSB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP] The Jews replied, “You aren’t 50 years old yet, and You’ve seen Abraham?”
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
[SUP]59 [/SUP] At that, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple complex.

"But Jesus was hidden" is a major understatement, He had to have made Himself invisible. The Inmates that I used to teach, found that easy to understand. That crowd was VERY ZEALOUS to STONE blasphemers. Like I used to ask them, "if the Yard was full of baseball size stones, and someone YELLED, "STONE THE SNITCH!" What would be the chances of his hidding himself as he walked out of the YARD?" Amazingly, they got the answer right every time. IT WOULD TAKE A MAJOR MIRACLE.

daniel606 · Aug 21, 2014

Is one of the His names Elohim?

Mormons / Latter Day Saints

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