My view on OSAS

[FireHeart]

then it is not free. it must be earned by how well we work for it after we get of it, take care of it, perfet it, however you want to say it

and no one is saved unless they have true faith (not mere belief)

that does not mean their will be times when our faith fails us.

Its free for us to take but what if someone said To God I accept u in my heart they then became saved but were so far more interested in the things of the world that they honestly didnt even care much for God.
think also of Jesus and the rich man, The rich man said he would follow jesus wherever he went but jesus said that to follow him he must go and sell everything he owned, the rich man simply couldnt do it.

Again god does not desire half our hearts, true enough our faith in him is all about our relationship with him and there will be times we fall in our faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its free for us to take but what if someone said To God I accept u in my heart they then became saved but were so far more interested in the things of the world that they honestly didnt even care much for God.

Then did they ever truly repent. and did they have actual faith in him, or just mere belief. And if they had no faith. but only mere belief, were they ever saved to begin with?

think also of Jesus and the rich man, The rich man said he would follow jesus wherever he went but jesus said that to follow him he must go and sell everything he owned, the rich man simply couldnt do it.

The rich man also thought he obeyed the law since birth, and that is what saved him. His focus was not on Jesus the savior. but Jesus the messiah (king) as alot of jews in this time did. and why they walked away in unbelief

Again god does not desire half our hearts, true enough our faith in him is all about our relationship with him and there will be times we fall in our faith

God desires faith, Faith a a mustard seed can move a mountain. Thats an awful small amount of faith.

If that amount can move a mountain, then it certainly can save you.

Giving God your whole body spirit and soul does not mean we will be perfect. or only gave him half our heart. It means we are still growing and maturing. Unfortunately, as paul said. many never grow up and remains babes and wonder why the blessings of God never come their way.

 

[FireHeart]

Then did they ever truly repent. and did they have actual faith in him, or just mere belief. And if they had no faith. but only mere belief, were they ever saved to begin with?




The rich man also thought he obeyed the law since birth, and that is what saved him. His focus was not on Jesus the savior. but Jesus the messiah (king) as alot of jews in this time did. and why they walked away in unbelief



God desires faith, Faith a a mustard seed can move a mountain. Thats an awful small amount of faith.

If that amount can move a mountain, then it certainly can save you.

Giving God your whole body spirit and soul does not mean we will be perfect. or only gave him half our heart. It means we are still growing and maturing. Unfortunately, as paul said. many never grow up and remains babes and wonder why the blessings of God never come their way.

To your first question yes I believe they were saved and did repent but they gave into the temptation of the world instead of god being their number one so they slowly fell away from their faith in God. i will say this- mere belief god is real and mere belief jesus died on the cross for us cannot save you, even satanists know this.

God does not only desire faith, he made that clear i the scripture where he said how many will go before him saying lord did we not perform miracles and and cast out demons and prophecy in your name? jesus replied to them to go away for he never knew them. We can have the all the faith in the world we can summon balls of fire from the sky we can prophecy we can heal in his name but without a loving relationship with him it means nothing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To your first question yes I believe they were saved and did repent but they gave into the temptation of the world instead of god being their number one so they slowly fell away from their faith in God. i will say this- mere belief god is real and mere belief jesus died on the cross for us cannot save you, even satanists know this.

I disagree. Someone adopted as a child of God. and give the spirit could and would never do this.

These people were never saved, thats why they so easily fell away.

God does not only desire faith, he made that clear i the scripture where he said how many will go before him saying lord did we not perform miracles and and cast out demons and prophecy in your name? jesus replied to them to go away for he never knew them. We can have the all the faith in the world we can summon balls of fire from the sky we can prophecy we can heal in his name but without a loving relationship with him it means nothing.

That verse goes against what you say though.

1. He never knew them (they were never saved)
2. He is speaking to those who tried to earn salvation by works. they legalists (I do believe many pharisee jews will be part of this group as well as many legalistic christians) Not those who had mere belief, and did not work.

you still have the problem, your taking a GIFT and trying to make us earn it. which would make salvation of works, and not grace

 

[FireHeart]

I disagree. Someone adopted as a child of God. and give the spirit could and would never do this.



These people were never saved, thats why they so easily fell away.




That verse goes against what you say though.

1. He never knew them (they were never saved)
2. He is speaking to those who tried to earn salvation by works. they legalists (I do believe many pharisee jews will be part of this group as well as many legalistic christians) Not those who had mere belief, and did not work.

you still have the problem, your taking a GIFT and trying to make us earn it. which would make salvation of works, and not grace

You are free to disagree but many saved ppl lose their way due to lifes challenges or greed for better things.
But the scripture I quoted doesnt go against what i say it just shows you faith alone does not save. these ppl had the faith to do amazing things but they never built an actual relationship with him.

i dont understand how you keep thinking I am taking a gift and making us earn it. the gift of salvation is free to take but like any relationship it requires us to put in some effort in order to grow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are free to disagree but many saved ppl lose their way due to lifes challenges or greed for better things.
But the scripture I quoted doesnt go against what i say it just shows you faith alone does not save. these ppl had the faith to do amazing things but they never built an actual relationship with him.

they never had a relationship with him, Because they were never saved.

Losing your way and the blessings in life which come from following God, and losing salvation is not the same.

i dont understand how you keep thinking I am taking a gift and making us earn it. the gift of salvation is free to take but like any relationship it requires us to put in some effort in order to grow.

Effort is work. Work is earning .

If you are saved as a free gift, You can not turn it around and now say earn it by giving some effort by doing whatever it is you think he needs to do.

sorry I can;t see it any other way

 

[2Thewaters]

This appears to be a hot topic on here but here is take on it. I do believe you can fall away from faith, Its so easy to become concerned with life and its easy to crave more success and money or a promotion. little by little it can take your eyes completely off gaurd until you become luke warm then from there you really could care less about God.

But there is something I would like to say, If one truly got to know God i mean really seeing who he his falling away is simply not possible because you will be so in love with him thats he is all you want. During my day i truly treasure my time with him, i dont pray for more things physical or spiritual I just sit there talking to him. I get to know him much better when I dont ask for things and just talk.

I crave him more than air and I stumble all the time but because I know and love him so well i could never give him up. But other Christians who fell away from faith didnt do so because they werent saved in the first place they just didnt know God enough. Their salvation is still waiting for them they only have to taake it back

its more serious than that

you can desire to go to heaven
you can go to church every week
you can preach as a minister
you can cast out demons
you can do the sinners prayer
and even then you can be decieved by the serpent


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

so they can WANT TO GO and TRY AND DO RIGHT and do everything

but the one thing they did not do

That sounds pretty god
but it is way outside the bible again

those who do not stop sinning
are not going.

that is what the Bible says in every book

WE CANT STOP SINNING

but Jesus can

so you have to ask for the blood of Jesus to give you the power to stop sinning

and he will

now that is a born again relationship

that is in the Bible from beginning to end

the ones that continue to sin
and teach men so
because they ignored the requirements to be sinless will not go

how can you be sinless?

By the BLOOD OF JESUS ALONE!
he forgives
and then he gives you power to WALK IN THE LAW

that is sanctification

without which
(repentance)

you will be saying LORD LORD how come i cant go?

i didnt know you
no relationship
no putting away of old life
you werent serious
you didnt listen
you didnt follow me
you didnt love me more than beer
more than lying
more than adultery
and more than a lot of other idols


so

everyone can be saved from sinning
just be born again.

 

[Cassian]

That's all good stuff and amen. Why couldn't God keep Adam?

Not only that, but when someone says this " My salvation is based upon the WORK AND FAITH OF JESUS WHICH IS PERFECT" One is immediately knows they do not understand scripture but has an errant supposition that determines their interpretation, when the topic is eternal life with Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not only that, but when someone says this " My salvation is based upon the WORK AND FAITH OF JESUS WHICH IS PERFECT" One is immediately knows they do not understand scripture but has an errant supposition that determines their interpretation, when the topic is eternal life with Christ.

eternal life (never dieing) is salvation (or at least based on it, Since if we are not saved, we have no life, but only death)

when one trys to separate salvation which gives us eternal life. then one immediately knows they do not understand scripture. or what we are saved from.

 

[Cassian]

Adam and his fall has nothing at all to do with eternal salvation found in Jesus....BY ADAM sin came and by the SECOND ADAM came???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Has everything to do with it
Thed beginning is the same as the end.

The fall and correction from the fall is an interlude between the beginning and the end.

 

[Cassian]

eternal life (never dieing) is salvation (or at least based on it, Since if we are not saved, we have no life, but only death)

when one trys to separate salvation which gives us eternal life. then one immediately knows they do not understand scripture. or what we are saved from.

There are unfortunately many man made interpretations of scripture and yours is only one of them. You have never presented any evidence that the early Church believed the Gospel as you state it.

Especially that Christ redeemed the world, freed the world from the bondage to death and sin so that each individual could freely choose or reject eternal life with Christ.

That man was created to be in union with God and was required toworkwith God to perfect himself in the Likerness of God is completely missing from your interpretation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are unfortunately many man made interpretations of scripture and yours is only one of them. You have never presented any evidence that the early Church believed the Gospel as you state it.

Especially that Christ redeemed the world, freed the world from the bondage to death and sin so that each individual could freely choose or reject eternal life with Christ.

That man was created to be in union with God and was required toworkwith God to perfect himself in the Likerness of God is completely missing from your interpretation.

We must have different bibles.

Then again, You can not understand that a person who is born again and given eternal life is in that state because they have been saved (redeemed0 from sin, which caused them to be dead.

if you can;t get this right, there is no reason to listen to you.

 

[Cassian]

We must have different bibles.

Then again, You can not understand that a person who is born again and given eternal life is in that state because they have been saved (redeemed0 from sin, which caused them to be dead.

if you can;t get this right, there is no reason to listen to you.

We do have the same Bible, however, you depend on your ability or some other man's interpretation of a text. I believe what the Holy Spirit gave and has preserved. He did not give us a text with the instruction that individuals needed to figure it out on their own the best way they can.

I also believe in a Savior that redeemed all human beings from death and sin. Being saved from death and sin has nothing to do with being "born again" except that it made it possible. Which was the whole purpose of Christ coming to reverse the fall, so that God's original purpose of man could continue.

Then again, you have not given any evidence that what you say was believed and practiced by the early Church. Your statement is actually a denial of the salvific effect of His Incarnation and resurrection.

Making assertions denying historical record does not change that historical record.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We do have the same Bible, however, you depend on your ability or some other man's interpretation of a text. I believe what the Holy Spirit gave and has preserved. He did not give us a text with the instruction that individuals needed to figure it out on their own the best way they can.

coming from someone who relys on men to interpret the text for him, this is sort of hypocritical is it not?

I also believe in a Savior that redeemed all human beings from death and sin

well you would be wrong, that would be universalism, he offers redemption to all men, he is not going to force anyone to take his gift.

. Being saved from death and sin has nothing to do with being "born again" except that it made it possible.

Born again has everything to do with being saved from sin and death, if your saved from death, you have been made alive, and God calls this life "eternal"

it does not take a brain surgeon or a doctorates degree to see this basic fact, it just takes some common sense and open eyes.

Which was the whole purpose of Christ coming to reverse the fall, so that God's original purpose of man could continue.

hey we agree on something. wow

Then again, you have not given any evidence that what you say was believed and practiced by the early Church. Your statement is actually a denial of the salvific effect of His Incarnation and resurrection.

Making assertions denying historical record does not change that historical record.

I have the Holy Writ of scripture. the only inspired, proven, and reliable words of history. The churh was already in chaos before the word of God was completed. The first three chapters of revelations proves this, along with the many warnings of false prophets which already infiltrated the church from the apostles who wrote the NT.

If you want to rely on words of men, and not words of God. thats your choice. But eternity is MUCH TO LONG for me to rely on men.

 

[SolidGround]

Not only that, but when someone says this " My salvation is based upon the WORK AND FAITH OF JESUS WHICH IS PERFECT" One is immediately knows they do not understand scripture but has an errant supposition that determines their interpretation, when the topic is eternal life with Christ.

So your salvation is not based on faith in the perfect work of Christ?
You have totally gone off into heretical corners.
Come back to the Word.

The only supposition would be that the Bible is true.

There are unfortunately many man made interpretations of scripture and yours is only one of them. You have never presented any evidence that the early Church believed the Gospel as you state it.

Especially that Christ redeemed the world, freed the world from the bondage to death and sin so that each individual could freely choose or reject eternal life with Christ.

That man was created to be in union with God and was required toworkwith God to perfect himself in the Likerness of God is completely missing from your interpretation.

It's definitely not missing,
it's just a totally separate topic.

The physical salvation that you are talking about is not the only salvation.
There is spiritual salvation, which is now.
Physical salvation is to come.

 

[Cassian]

coming from someone who relys on men to interpret the text for him, this is sort of hypocritical is it not?

Unless you can show which men interpreted scripture, please let me know.
The ONLY men that I know of where the Apostles who gave us the Revelation of the Holy Spirit which includes scripture.
On the other hand I have pointed out to you all the various man made theories, including your very own personal interpretation of those scriptures that you subscribe to.

well you would be wrong, that would be universalism, he offers redemption to all men, he is not going to force anyone to take his gift.

Like I stated before, I would like you to tell me how you chose to be resurrected. Do you think that any man can tell God that he does not what to be resurrected?

Can you tell me which person can effect His sacrifice by either denying it, or rejecting it.

Can you tell me which person can effect anything to so with the redemption of the world by rejecting or accepting Him.


You really have no understanding of what Christ actually accomplished and for what purpose. That is based on scripture, rather than some man's personal presupposition.

Born again has everything to do with being saved from sin and death, if your saved from death, you have been made alive, and God calls this life "eternal"

scripture makes a much clearer distinction than you do here. Christ defeated physical death, gave life (an eternal existence) to every single human being as well as the world itself by His Incarnation and resurrection.

It was necessary for Christ to first defeat the condemnation of death otherwise there is absolutely no reason to have a relationship with a human being. That relationship is entered into be faith, and baptism by water and the Spirit is what is called "born from above. It is also regenerative in that it regenerated the lost connection or union for which all men were created to have with God in the beginning freely entered into. The inheritance or result of this relationship, if we are faithful here on earth, is eternal life, (spiritual life) with Christ.
You are confusing the physical with the spiritual, which is understandable since you actually don't believe that Christ defeated physical death and gave life to the world, all men.

it does not take a brain surgeon or a doctorates degree to see this basic fact, it just takes some common sense and open eyes.

you are correct, but how come you don't understand it?

hey we agree on something. wow

I know you stated you do, but your explanation above still denies it. So obviously we really don't agree.

I have the Holy Writ of scripture. the only inspired, proven, and reliable words of history. The churh was already in chaos before the word of God was completed. The first three chapters of revelations proves this, along with the many warnings of false prophets which already infiltrated the church from the apostles who wrote the NT.

which is your man made version that needs to demonize what the Holy Spirit has done in the beginning as well as since throughout 2000 years. You don't really believe in Christ, or the Holy Spirit of scripture because you deny everything that Christ accomplished, and then what the Holy Spirit has accomplished.
All you have is a text, howbeit inspired, but man has assumed authority over it and imposed his own interpretations uppon it by the scores, which your is only one of them.

If you want to rely on words of men, and not words of God. thats your choice. But eternity is MUCH TO LONG for me to rely on men.

But you are the ONLY one that is relying upon men, mostly yourself, rather than on Christ nad the Holy Spirit operating through His Body of which He is the Head, and by the enlivenment of the Holy Spirit within that Body which has preserved both the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it.

A far cry from all the confusion, chaos, and division of man practiced sola scriptura where we have so man versions it is hard to keep them all straight.

 

[SolidGround]

Unless you can show which men interpreted scripture, please let me know.
The ONLY men that I know of where the Apostles who gave us the Revelation of the Holy Spirit which includes scripture.
On the other hand I have pointed out to you all the various man made theories, including your very own personal interpretation of those scriptures that you subscribe to.[/B][/COLOR]


Like I stated before, I would like you to tell me how you chose to be resurrected. Do you think that any man can tell God that he does not what to be resurrected?

Can you tell me which person can effect His sacrifice by either denying it, or rejecting it.

Can you tell me which person can effect anything to so with the redemption of the world by rejecting or accepting Him.


You really have no understanding of what Christ actually accomplished and for what purpose. That is based on scripture, rather than some man's personal presupposition.


scripture makes a much clearer distinction than you do here. Christ defeated physical death, gave life (an eternal existence) to every single human being as well as the world itself by His Incarnation and resurrection.

It was necessary for Christ to first defeat the condemnation of death otherwise there is absolutely no reason to have a relationship with a human being. That relationship is entered into be faith, and baptism by water and the Spirit is what is called "born from above. It is also regenerative in that it regenerated the lost connection or union for which all men were created to have with God in the beginning freely entered into. The inheritance or result of this relationship, if we are faithful here on earth, is eternal life, (spiritual life) with Christ.
You are confusing the physical with the spiritual, which is understandable since you actually don't believe that Christ defeated physical death and gave life to the world, all men.

you are correct, but how come you don't understand it?



I know you stated you do, but your explanation above still denies it. So obviously we really don't agree.



which is your man made version that needs to demonize what the Holy Spirit has done in the beginning as well as since throughout 2000 years. You don't really believe in Christ, or the Holy Spirit of scripture because you deny everything that Christ accomplished, and then what the Holy Spirit has accomplished.
All you have is a text, howbeit inspired, but man has assumed authority over it and imposed his own interpretations uppon it by the scores, which your is only one of them.

But you are the ONLY one that is relying upon men, mostly yourself, rather than on Christ nad the Holy Spirit operating through His Body of which He is the Head, and by the enlivenment of the Holy Spirit within that Body which has preserved both the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it.

A far cry from all the confusion, chaos, and division of man practiced sola scriptura where we have so man versions it is hard to keep them all straight.

The issue with your view is that
I know people who have died.

Physical death still occurs.

So according to your interpretation of the Gospel, Jesus failed.


Sorry Cass, but you are just attacking, and doing no real explaining. Slow down, and write it all out first. You need to get some clarity in your own beliefs before tearing down the Body.
You have judged EG as 'demonizing the Holy Spirit'.... and that he denies everything Christ accomplished.
These are just sick accusations.
The rest of your argument is just saying that EG 'doesn't understand'.

 

[Cassian]

The issue with your view is that
I know people who have died.

Physical death still occurs.

So according to your interpretation of the Gospel, Jesus failed.


Sorry Cass, but you are just attacking, and doing no real explaining. Slow down, and write it all out first. You need to get some clarity in your own beliefs before tearing down the Body.
You have judged EG as 'demonizing the Holy Spirit'.... and that he denies everything Christ accomplished.
These are just sick accusations.
The rest of your argument is just saying that EG 'doesn't understand'.

When one is not familiar with the discourses I have had with eternal-grageful, your comments are quite irrelevant.
But it is NOT about people who have died. We all will die once, but If you understood scripture you would also understand that that death is not permanent any longer.

Eternal-grateful denies that Christ redeemed the world and all of mankind. That Christ did not redeemed the world and mankind from the bondage to death and sin, it is a denial of the Incarnation and the resurrection of Christ. It is the primary work of Christ that one denies in denying the redemption of the world.

But you are welcome in trying to help eternal-grateful, since he has not been able to refute what scripture has always taught.

 

[SolidGround]

When one is not familiar with the discourses I have had with eternal-grageful, your comments are quite irrelevant.
But it is NOT about people who have died. We all will die once, but If you understood scripture you would also understand that that death is not permanent any longer.

Eternal-grateful denies that Christ redeemed the world and all of mankind. That Christ did not redeemed the world and mankind from the bondage to death and sin, it is a denial of the Incarnation and the resurrection of Christ. It is the primary work of Christ that one denies in denying the redemption of the world.

But you are welcome in trying to help eternal-grateful, since he has not been able to refute what scripture has always taught.

I don't know the history between you, so I'm sorry if I interjected at a bad spot.

However, I don't really understand what your quarrel is with him entirely either.
You seem to be just saying that he is denying Christ, but not giving anything I can see where he does so.

If you are saying that all men are saved from hell, you'd be wrong.

If you are simply saying that all men have an opportunity to accept the gift of faith and be saved, then I can agree with you, and I'm sure EG can agree with you.

To take it any further than that goes into Universalism, which is not Biblical.


I do think that you have misunderstood some of what Christ came to do,
but the errors aren't grievous. They just need to be synergized with the OT prophets. (you're neglecting the idea of 'remnant')

What is grievous
is your attitude.

Just take it down a notch. Try to get your point across without telling the other person that they are denying Christ by disagreeing with you.

Unity is found in being one with Christ,
not in being the same as everyone else. We can disagree on things, but as long as we claim Christ, then we are brothers.

 

[Kerry]

OSAS is a feel good thing. The fruit that Eve ate was a feel good thing.